PAST-Millennialism

[PinSeeker]

... continued:

I see. You're just miffed at OSAS unconditional salvation being the source of many anti-Bible-millinialists.

LOL! I don't even know what this means... Is this all you have to say in response to the passages I cited? Perhaps you could explain why you think they... don't clearly say what they clearly say...

How can anyone not see no man is given saving faith of Jesus toward God, without first repenting of their sins and trespasses for His sake?

Ah! Well, good question, but I would answer it with a question. Two questions, actually: 1) How is it possible anyone to repent of his/her sins when he/she is dead in his/her sins? And 2.) Is not our repentance ~ true repentance ~ really a work of the Spirit?

Answers: 1) He/She will not, indeed cannot, because he/she is dead in his/her sin, and 2) it is.

As Paul says in Romans 2, it is indeed God’s kindness that leads us to repentance (Romans 2:4). So yes, it is our repentance, but it's God's kindness and the work of His Spirit in our hearts that brings this about.

Because they don't want to.

No, because it supposes that our being born again can somehow be deserved by works, in refutation of what Paul says in Romans 9, specifically verse 16, that being one of God's elect "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."

Why? Well, because they are still hard-hearted unrepented sinners.

Precisely the opposite. Salvation is of the Lord. It is He ~ the Father willing, the Son, making it possible, and the Spirit working it in us ~ Who... well, it can't be said better than Paul:

"...being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace (we) have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace (we) have been saved through faith. And this is not (our) own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:4-10).​

And Paul is drawing here directly from what God says through the prophet Ezekiel in Ezekiel 11 and 36:

• "And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God" (Ezekiel 11:19-20).
• "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules" (Ezekiel 36:25-27).

It's pretty much self-explanatory.

Well, yes, but... see above.

And it certainly is not some millennium began with Solomon's temple, as though man had no 'awareness' of the true God beforehand.

Agreed.

...Among our own households and assemblies in Christ Jesus

Hm. Applying something earthly to something heavenly... What you say here is a different thing from what Christ is saying to the believers in Thyatira in Revelation 2. In and of itself, though, I don't fully disagree with what you say here; we fathers are the head of our households, and we do have pastors and elders who are the spiritual leaders of our churches...

Not with Him over all nations.

Right, in Him (as I said), over all nations.

The first resurrection bodily to meet the Lord in the air, is not yet come nor past.

Right, well, that's our part ~ those resurrected to eternal life, as opposed to those resurrected to judgment ~ in the second resurrection, where our spirit is reunited with our physical body.

True. If we've repented of all our sins and trespasses for Jesus' sake.

Right, but our repentance is really not a work in man in and of himself, but the work of God. As Paul says to the Philippians (and by extension to us), we are to "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in (us), both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13).

And still being an unrepented trespasser, you cut out the end:

Behold, all things are become new... And all things are of God.

Not 'some' things are of God, but all things are now of God, and nothing is of the devil.

Hm, well, thanks be to God, I am not unrepentant, but you misunderstand, making complete what is now counted as complete by God but is still yet to be complete but surely will be. We call this the now-and-not-yet of the Gospel, It is not so hard to grasp, this thing of, for us believers, in this life, having been saved and being saved at the same time. I would ask this: Do you think Paul, in view of what he says of Himself in many places but particularly in Romans 7...

"I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me."​

...and 1 Timothy 1:15...

"The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost."​

..., to at the time he wrote those things have been still an unrepentant sinner? Surely not.

Grace and peace to you, Ghada.

 

[Ghada]

Since there is no error shown in my argument from the Bible, then we'll answer your questions with that truth:

Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6?

Jesus Christ, the first resurrected man from the dead.

All saints before and at His coming again are the next resurrected from the dead.

All the rest of the dead live again after His 1000 year rule, are all the wicked before and after His rule expires, and all the saints born again during His rule.

Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?

Jesus Christ, the first resurrected man from the dead and only Head of the church.

Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?

Jesus Christ, the first resurrected man from the dead and first fruits of the saints faithful to end.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

And of present and future saints faithful to the end.

Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?

Jesus Christ, the first resurrected man from the dead and the first begotten from the dead.

Ruling nations with a rod of iron is neither spirit-only nor figurative. It's physical by spiritually righteous rule, and equal justice under written law with.

Many anti-Bible-millennialists try to preach a spirit-only resurrection and rule, from which they cannot fall. It's just a millennialized adjunct to being saved and justified by faith without works, from which they cannot fall.

The only eternally secured salvation of Jesus Christ, is for them that add to their faith His virtue, godliness, and charity, that ensures we shall not fall.

Of course, unrepented workers of iniquity have never yet begun the race of righteousness and eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Only the repented saints walking uprightly with Jesus to the end, shall inherit eternal salvation in the first resurrection of the saints unto life.

Even as they lived on earth like Jesus in flesh and blood, so shall they rule on earth with Jesus in likeness of His resurrected body.

There is no magical changing of an old hardened heart of lust in the grave. There is no repentance for Jesus' sake granted by God in hell. There is no purgatory, where the unrepentant and unrighteous finally choose to repent for Jesus's sake.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

 

[PinSeeker]

Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6?

The first resurrection of Acts 26:26 is a different resurrection entirely from the first resurrection of Revelation 20:6. The physical resurrection of Christ Jesus is obviously in view in Acts 26:23, but the first resurrection of Revelation 20:4-6 is the resurrection from death in sin of each of the saints of God over the course of the millennium, the resurrection of individual members of God's elect as they come to Christ, individually, that Paul talks about in Ephesians 2:8.

Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?

Well, Jesus, but He is the firstborn of God in the greater sense of being preeminent over the Israel of God; this is Paul's context. By greater sense, I'm contrasting that with the fact that in the lesser sense, King David was the firstborn over the lesser nation of Israel, preeminent over Israel before it included Gentiles. And David, as you know, was actually the last born, the youngest, of all his brothers.

This concept of "firstborn" has to be understood in the context of Psalm 89:27, as in "the highest of the kings of the earth." This was the sense in a lesser sense with David...

"I have found David, My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him, so that My hand shall be established with him; My arm also shall strengthen him. The enemy shall not outwit him; the wicked shall not humble him. I will crush his foes before him and strike down those who hate him. My faithfulness and My steadfast love shall be with him, and in My name shall his horn be exalted. I will set his hand on the sea and his right hand on the rivers. He shall cry to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’ And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth." (God, Psalm 89:20-27)​

...and the greater sense with Jesus...

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities ~ all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross." (Paul, Colossians 1:15-20)​

Jesus is the Greater David.

Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?

Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?

Well, sure, Christ Jesus, of course.

But you're conflating a couple of very different things here.

 

[Ghada]

No, that will be when Jesus comes back

As I said.

, after the conclusion of the millennium

Only the righteous will have rule during Jesus' 1000 yr rule over nations. The unrighteous will be punished without respect of persons.

, and after the final Judgment.

I've given my corrections for, and given my teaching from the Bible. If you can show any error in my arguments, I'll look at them honestly.

The millennium is completed when all of God's Israel has been saved,

It begins with all sheep on earth born again into the Israel of God, whether Jew of Gentile.

when temple He has been building ~ us, all those in Christ,

There is the spiritual church of God on earth. Not a spiritual rule for a thousand years, which is the only Millennium in the Bible.

His Israel, all the saints, the members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. in Whom we are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit ~ has been completed.

All the church at His return will be resurrected from the earth into the air. The building of His church on earth will not be completed, until His 1000 yr rule has expired.

The dead in Christ at that time will be among the rest of the dead, whose names will be found in the Lamb's book of life. The wicked dead of history will not.

This will be the end of God's millennium and will bring on Satan's loosing

True.

(which will be cut short for the sake of the elect).

If there are still elect in the holy camp at that time, then that would be true. Just as when the persecution of the saints on earth before His Millennium, is cut short by His coming again into the air.

And then Christ will return, and win the final victory over Satan and his minions.

It doesn't say Christ returns a second time after His Millennium has expired.

And then the final Judgment, just before which all are resurrected bodily,

The final judgment is all the rest of the dead, including all the wicked dead of history, and the righteous dead during His Millennium.

And then... THEN... heaven and earth will finally be one.

One what? If you mean the old heavens and earth at the same time flee from His face and pass away, then I suppose they could be at one and the same time.

It is for eternity.

In your millennium, ok. Fine by me. Whatever power you have to make your stuff eternal, I'll not argue against.

The Bible Millennium has an expiration date.

After the final Judgment, the meek shall inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5).

After the judgment of the nations between sheep and goats, based upon good will and neighborliness.

Which is after the wrath and plagues of God on earth, and the warfare of the Lamb around Judea. So, they will have to still be alive that are then judged by the King as sheep or goats.

The sheep will then be born again in His everlasting kingdom, at the same time as entering into His kingdom of heaven on earth.

Christ's very present millennial reign ~ from heaven ~

His very present reign over His own body is now.

but that surely does not mean He is not reigning.

Surely not. Just not yet over all nations with His resurrected saints on earth.

 

[Ghada]

We are the Temple.

The repented saints in Christ Jesus are.

There are no unrepented workers of iniquity in Christ Jesus, in whom is no sin nor sinner.

we will worship him forever, not only by hearing from Him but in everything we do.

That's now or never. Hearers only are not justified by Christ. No unrepented, unrighteous, worker of the flesh is justified by hearing and knowing the truth only, and still refusing to do it.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinning, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

There is no ministry of sin nor continued sinners in His holy and righteous body.

The ministers of continued sinning to unrepented hearers only, are not the ministers of Jesus Christ.

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

The same old serpent's lie and ministry of disobedience, is still being ministered today by unrepented hearers, that want to believe it.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

There will be no more sin, and we will praise Him as we ought, and even all our works will be praise.

Repent now or never. Waiting to be newborn of Christ with all things now of God in heart and life, ends with the grave.

For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Those vainly teaching it must be waited for in the resurrection unrepented hearers only, make the present gospel truth of Jesus Christ, into an afterlife gospel lie.

And they only give lip service to wanting to walk with Him now with a pure heart, while refusing to repent of their lust and sinning to do so.

may not look like we think it should look now or want it to look now, because there is surely sin still in this world,

And that reign of Jesus today is not over unrepented workers of iniquity, that still sin with the world. Whether they want to in their minds or not, is not the judgment. Our works are the judgment of our souls be God.

Hearers only wanting in the mind not to sin, are not doers of the word, that sin not from the heart.

There will continue to be sin and trespass against the King's law in His Millennium, but judgment and sentence will be exact and swift.

God's ways are not our ways, His thoughts not our thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9).

Exactly. His thoughts and ways are one and the same. Unlike sinful people, whose thoughts are not their ways, nor their words match their deeds.

Especially with the hearers only, that now have thoughts about the truth, but their way remains not doing the truth.

He is working all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28).

True. Only the repented saints love Him with all the heart and life. Unrepented sinners cannot possibly love God with all their old heart of lust, nor please them in all their ways.

And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Neither will the Father nor the Son leave them alone, that continue to please Him with His new pure heart and life.

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Thinking and saying we love Him with mind and lips, is not loving Him in deed and in truth.

The judgment of true and righteous God cares nothing for all the pretty speeches, words, and zealous thoughts of the mind, but only for what we are doing today in this life:

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

The god of this world doesn't care about anything other than works either. He's more than glad to pat unrepented sinners on the back for thinking good thoughts and talking about the love of God, so long as they continue sinning and trespassing against Him.

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

 

[3 Resurrections]

And even before what I say here, 3R, John quotes Christ as saying (in Revelation 4:1), “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” By "after this," What Christ says there is intimately similar to Revelation 1:19, where He says "Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this."

This verse Revelation 1:19 that you gave is an excellent example that gives us permission to interpret some of Revelation as PAST events ("the things that you HAVE seen"). Some of John's material can also be interpreted as ongoing events PRESENT in John's days ("the things that ARE"). And some events were going to take place in John's near future ("those that are ABOUT TO BE hereafter").

The Rev. 20 millennium is included in Revelation as one of these PAST events John was to write about. This provided a background setting to show to God's servants in those days what God was "ABOUT TO DO" to Satan and his devils in John's near future when Satan's THEN PRESENT "short time" of Rev. 12:12 was over.

 

[WPM]

Since there is no error shown in my argument from the Bible, then we'll answer your questions with that truth:

Jesus Christ, the first resurrected man from the dead.

All saints before and at His coming again are the next resurrected from the dead.

All the rest of the dead live again after His 1000 year rule, are all the wicked before and after His rule expires, and all the saints born again during His rule.

Jesus Christ, the first resurrected man from the dead and only Head of the church.


Jesus Christ, the first resurrected man from the dead and first fruits of the saints faithful to end.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

And of present and future saints faithful to the end.

Jesus Christ, the first resurrected man from the dead and the first begotten from the dead.

Ruling nations with a rod of iron is neither spirit-only nor figurative. It's physical by spiritually righteous rule, and equal justice under written law with.

Many anti-Bible-millennialists try to preach a spirit-only resurrection and rule, from which they cannot fall. It's just a millennialized adjunct to being saved and justified by faith without works, from which they cannot fall.

The only eternally secured salvation of Jesus Christ, is for them that add to their faith His virtue, godliness, and charity, that ensures we shall not fall.

Of course, unrepented workers of iniquity have never yet begun the race of righteousness and eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Only the repented saints walking uprightly with Jesus to the end, shall inherit eternal salvation in the first resurrection of the saints unto life.

Even as they lived on earth like Jesus in flesh and blood, so shall they rule on earth with Jesus in likeness of His resurrected body.

There is no magical changing of an old hardened heart of lust in the grave. There is no repentance for Jesus' sake granted by God in hell. There is no purgatory, where the unrepentant and unrighteous finally choose to repent for Jesus's sake.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

I rest my case. Case proved!

 

[ewq1938]

The Rev. 20 millennium is included in Revelation as one of these PAST events John was to write about.

No, John wrote of it in Rev 19 using a future tense verb, the RULE would come after the events of Armageddon. If the Mill was a past event, John could not have used a future tense verb to describe it.

All false doctrines deny the AC in some way.

I have noticed similar teachings about the antichrist.

Doctrines like Pre-trib teach the church will be gone, so they don't worry about the antichrist or look for any of the signs of his arrival.

Various forms of Preterism including Amillennialism teach the antichrist already came in the past so there is no need to watch for him now.

Other doctrines teach the AC isn't ever a singular man.


These all share the similarity of teaching that there is no need to watch for the antichrist at all. Seems like a great thing for satan to introduce into the churches so his antichrist (whoever he is) can slip right in and deceive those not watching. The antichrist is also known as a false christ and that is the most dangerous thing not to be knowledgeable about in the endtimes because of the apostasia (the Apostasy).

So, not watching for the antichrist or not believing in a singular future AC can result in one being deceived and committing Apostasy.

All false doctrines teach some version of doctrine where it's adherents need not worry about or watch for the antichrist. That is extremely dangerous. Beware!

 

[3 Resurrections]

And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Some people get so wrapped up in their personal revelations of prophetic insight, that they neglect to make sure the Bible doesn't openly contradict it. I mean, even without knowledge of the Bible, someone can do a simple word search for Satan still working on earth.

King David was not included in the millennium period, which was launched with his son Solomon's temple foundation stone being laid down. In the Psalms, King David had prophesied some of the millennium conditions beginning under Solomon's reign, but David died before it began.

As for these other texts, Satan is not deceiving anybody in these. Christ was never deceived by Satan's tempting Him. The conditions of the millennium were that Satan's deception of the nations would be bound - he would not succeed personally in deceiving the nations during that millennium.

The millennial conditions also do not say anything about people's ability to deceive themselves. After all, "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked..." People are fully capable of deceiving themselves and others, even without Satanic or demonic assistance.

It is also never stated under the millennium conditions that Satan could not move about during this time period. Scripture terms for the millennium also do not state that Satan would never try to deceive the nations during this time - only that he would not succeed in doing this.

Christ in John 12:31 and 14:30 announced warnings to the disciples just before His crucifixion that Satan was "NOW" going to be cast out - (cast out of heaven down to earth, that is, just as Revelation 12:9-10 wrote about). This would result in a judgment upon the world in those first-century days, brought by a wrathful Satan's influence - the whole "walking about as a roaring lion" thing. This was the same "short time" of Satan's renewed deception of the nations at the end of the millennium in AD 33.

Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

The first resurrection of the saints has not past.

Hymenaeus and Philetus were correct in one respect: the First resurrection of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints and Christ had already occurred. But they were wrong in teaching that this was the only resurrection event that God intended to perform. This group of many Matthew 27:52-53 saints raised from the dead were either seen by Hymenaeus and Philetus, or they heard about this astounding event in AD 33 from others. And this group never died again, as so many have mistakenly taught. That just isn't a possibility, by scripture standards.

 

[3 Resurrections]

No, John wrote of it in Rev 19 using a future tense verb, the RULE would come after the events of Armageddon. If the Mill was a past event, John could not have used a future tense verb to describe it.

Revelation 19 doesn't mention the millennium at all. Neither does it mention Satan's deception of the nations being bound.

I have noticed similar teachings about the antichrist.

The Antichrist / Man of Lawlessness and his restrainer that Paul had already identified for the Thessalonian believers is not the subject of this post. And this particular Antichrist died long ago in AD 66 after exalting himself as the King of the Jews in the temple - a title that belonged only to Christ Jesus.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 19 doesn't mention the millennium at all.

Wrong. It speaks of the future RULE over the nations, which is the purpose of it. Rev 2 addresses this as well.

Neither does it mention Satan's deception of the nations being bound.

That's not the best way to phrase it. Satan is bound and imprisoned so he cannot deceive the nations.

And this particular Antichrist died long ago in AD 66 after exalting himself as the King of the Jews in the temple - a title that belonged only to Christ Jesus.

He was but one of many AC's but he is not the final fulfillment.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Wrong. It speaks of the future RULE over the nations, which is the purpose of it. Rev 2 addresses this as well.

Revelation 19:12 speaks of Christ's rule over the many nations by the "many crowns" He is wearing at that point. These many crowns were going to be confiscated from the prince of the kingdoms of this world after God had slain Satan, the dragon and the ancient serpent (Is. 27:1). But this "many crowns" rule is not the millennium part of Christ's rule, because Satan would still be in existence during that thousand years - not destroyed to ashes on the earth yet (as Ezekiel 28:18-19 had predicted for him).

God's rule over His creation is not limited to a thousand year period. We know this because Psalms 145:13 says, "Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And Your dominion endures throughout ALL generations." This perpetual reigning rule of the Lord God stretches from eternity past to eternity future. The Rev. 20 millennium was only a small segment of a literal thousand years on that perpetual timeline. Satan's deception of the nations was bound until his "short time" of renewed deceptive powers began in AD 33. Not all mentions of God's perpetual rule pertain to the specific, limited period of Satan's deception being restrained. Some refer to the time of God's rule either before or after that limited segment of time. Christ's reign is a kingdom that lasts forever, and is never broken.

Christ's announcement warning of Satan's coming "short time" of release to deceive the nations again was given just before His crucifixion, in both John 12:31 and John 14:30. "NOW is the judgment of this world: NOW shall the prince of this world be cast out." (Satan would be cast out of heaven down to earth, as in Rev. 12:9-13).
"Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." This was going to be Satan's hour, with his power of darkness unleashed in the world once more. Fortunately, God made provision to combat this renewed level of deception in that "short time" after AD 33 by "pouring out His Spirit on all flesh" in those days of Pentecost and following.

 

[ewq1938]

These many crowns were going to be confiscated from the prince of the kingdoms of this world after God had slain Satan, the dragon and the ancient serpent (Is. 27:1). But this "many crowns" rule is not the millennium part of Christ's rule, because Satan would still be in existence during that thousand years - not destroyed to ashes on the earth yet (as Ezekiel 28:18-19 had predicted for him).

This is clearly wrong since the crowns of Christ exist at the second coming, while satan is fully alive and all before the Millennium even starts.

 

[Mr E]

Surely you know the difference between #1), a person looking for something doctrinally new just for novelty's sake and #2), an attempt to be a "more noble Berean" by checking daily whether the scriptures one has been taught are truth or not.

I've done more than twelve years of daily research into whether the Premil-Disp. teachings I received in my younger days was truth or not, and have found them lacking in many areas according to the scriptures themselves. And not just lacking, but totally invented in many cases also. I was taught fables in my youth, and consequently have done a lot of discarding.

The key to learning isn't always a matter of gaining new knowledge. More often than not, true understanding comes from discarding things we think we know. It's trading up.

 

[Mr E]

This verse Revelation 1:19 that you gave is an excellent example that gives us permission to interpret some of Revelation as PAST events ("the things that you HAVE seen"). Some of John's material can also be interpreted as ongoing events PRESENT in John's days ("the things that ARE"). And some events were going to take place in John's near future ("those that are ABOUT TO BE hereafter").

The Rev. 20 millennium is included in Revelation as one of these PAST events John was to write about. This provided a background setting to show to God's servants in those days what God was "ABOUT TO DO" to Satan and his devils in John's near future when Satan's THEN PRESENT "short time" of Rev. 12:12 was over.

It's easy enough to see some things as past and some present and others future because (as you have pointed out) these things are seasonal, cyclical, and repetitive-- happening in a fashion over and over and over.....

 

[3 Resurrections]

This is clearly wrong since the crowns of Christ exist at the second coming, while satan is fully alive and all before the Millennium even starts.

You only think it is wrong because you presume that the millennium begins with Christ's second coming. It doesn't. John tells you when it ended.

The millennium ended when Christ ascended and the Devil descended. Very simple.

 

[Mr E]

The millennium ended when Christ ascended and the Devil descended. Very simple.

You don't have one happening without the other. The coming of the Christ is simultaneous with the releasing of the anti-christ and the two oppose each other-- One overcomes the other.

I just want to encourage you to continue your study. Don't get bogged down by the foot-stomping orthodox Christians who have not yet escaped those traps of steeped beliefs crammed in their heads since South Carolina Sunday School flannel-graph stories were all the rage.


Oh-- and welcome to the Forum.

 

[ewq1938]

You only think it is wrong because you presume that the millennium begins with Christ's second coming. It doesn't. John tells you when it ended.

John does not say that. I have already proven it using the future tense verb John used about it.

The millennium ended when Christ ascended and the Devil descended. Very simple.

That isn't true though.

 

[3 Resurrections]

It's easy enough to see some things as past and some present and others future because (as you have pointed out) these things are seasonal, cyclical, and repetitive-- happening in a fashion over and over and over.....

This concept of repetition in scripture is a good part of where I see God having planned for 3 separate bodily resurrection events, based on the Israelite schedule under Mosaic law of 3 required harvest celebrations of Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles. This pattern established under the OT Mosaic rituals has been and will be fulfilled by Christ's redemptive actions on our behalf. I am waiting for the last remaining Feast of Tabernacles type to be fulfilled in my own bodily resurrection at the next resurrection event at that same FOT time of year in the future.

You don't have one happening without the other. The coming of the Christ is simultaneous with the releasing of the anti-christ and the two oppose each other-- One overcomes the other.

This used to be what I was taught: that it would take Christ's second coming return to destroy the Antichrist. But on closer examination of the language in 2 Thess. 2, it is not the coming of Christ that destroys the Antichrist - it is the manner of the Man of Lawlessness's OWN COMING on the scene of power which would be the means of destroying himself. The Antichrist would exalt himself over every other Zealot leader who was presenting themselves as Daniel's prophesied Messiah the Prince in the first century. This exaltation of himself made him a target for other Messiah claimants to that role who ended up murdering him.

There were many of these "pseudo-christs" that arose in the first century - some even mentioned in the book of Acts. The first one of these who actually got into the temple presenting himself as the Messiah, King of the Jews, was Menahem in AD 66 (Paul's predicted Man of Lawlessness / Antichrist). Josephus records the rise and fall of this man Menahem who fulfilled all that Paul said he would do in 2 Thess. 2. "Lawlessness" was the Zealot cause that was rising in influence in Christ's days, and exploded into the Jewish rebellion (the "apostasia") in AD 66.

 

[PinSeeker]

Only the righteous will have rule during Jesus' 1000 yr rule over nations. The unrighteous will be punished without respect of persons.

Only the righteous will be co-heirs with Christ in eternity, in the new heaven and new earth. The unrighteous... yes.

I've given my corrections for, and given my teaching from the Bible.

Right, your understandings and opinions, some of which I disagree with.

If you can show any error in my arguments, I'll look at them honestly.

Well I have...

It begins with all sheep on earth born again into the Israel of God, whether Jew of Gentile.

This is how it (God's millennium) progresses... is progressing.

There is the spiritual church of God on earth...

Agree. This is what is often called the invisible Church... Christ's Church, made up of all those born again of the Spirit. Yes.

. Not a spiritual rule for a thousand years, which is the only Millennium in the Bible....

Well, I agree regarding just "spiritual rule," at least in how I think you think of that term. But regarding the God's millennium, only Jesus is at the right hand of the Father.

All the church at His return will be resurrected from the earth into the air.

We will go out to meet Him in His return, yes. But, in short order, everyone will be resurrected ~ as I said, many to eternal life, and the others to judgment (John 5:28-29)

The building of His church on earth will not be completed, until His 1000 yr rule has expired.

Agreed. It will be brought to completion, and this will bring the millennium and thus His millennial reign ~ to a close. Shortly thereafter ~ after a couple of... very momentous... events, eternity, and thus His eternal reign will begin, and this will have no end.

The dead in Christ at that time will be among the rest of the dead, whose names will be found in the Lamb's book of life. The wicked dead of history will not.

Right, the wicked will not stand in the congregation of the righteous (Psalm 1), and will go away into eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46).

If there are still elect in the holy camp at that time...

There will be; the very statement, "will be cut short for the sake of the elect" implies it, without question.

It doesn't say Christ returns a second time after His Millennium has expired.

Yes, certainly not. And I'm not either. Yes, it is only necessary for Christ to return once (I don't even know how it is possible for dispensational premillennialists suppose He returns twice, but they do), and it will be after the close of the millennium. That's actually what prompts Christ's return.

The final judgment is all the rest of the dead, including all the wicked dead of history, and the righteous dead during His Millennium.

All. All will be judged according to what they have done (John 5:28-29; 1 Corinthians 3:13; Revelation 20:12). God will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury (Romans 2:6-8).

One what? If you mean the old heavens and earth at the same time flee from His face and pass away....

No, united. Heaven and earth will finally be one... again. The new heaven and the new earth. God is not "making all new things," but rather making all things new.

The Bible Millennium has an expiration date.

Yes, but no one except the Father knows it. We only know what will bring it to an end.

The repented saints in Christ Jesus are. There are no unrepented workers of iniquity in Christ Jesus...

Agreed.

, in whom is no sin nor sinner.

Well, as for us, John writes, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." (1 John 1:8-10). But yes, if anyone is not repentant and thus still of the flesh and not of the Spirit, and thus dwelling in his sin, then... yeah, that's a problem. As the writer of Hebrews says, "if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries" (Hebrews 10:26-27).

And that reign of Jesus today is not over unrepented workers of iniquity...

Well, they don't acknowledge Him as King as we do, I agree. They are still dead in their sin, as we once were, and may ~ but may not; there is still hope for them for now ~ remain so. But for the ones who will never be members of God's elect ~ whom we can't know right now; only God knows who He chose in Christ before the foundation of the world ~ "(God has given) them up," as Paul says in Romans 1-2, "in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator..." so He has given "them up to dishonorable passions, to a debased mind..." They are "full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness... gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless..." and "have no excuse."

Exactly. His thoughts and ways are one and the same.

Well, I agree, but that's not what Isaiah 55:8-9 are speaking to.

Only the repented saints love Him with all the heart and life.

Right, and why do we love Him, Ghada? John tells us in 1 John 4:19... "We love because he first loved us."

This verse Revelation 1:19 that you gave is an excellent example that gives us permission to interpret some of Revelation as PAST events ("the things that you HAVE seen"). Some of John's material can also be interpreted as ongoing events PRESENT in John's days ("the things that ARE"). And some events were going to take place in John's near future ("those that are ABOUT TO BE hereafter").

Agreed. And the millennium is one of those things. Not all of it is past, nor is all of it future.

The Rev. 20 millennium is included in Revelation as one of these PAST events John was to write about.

Well, he's writing as if it's past, because the visions he is being given and thus relating to us are of all things that "must take place after this” (Revelation 4:1).

This provided a background setting to show to God's servants in those days what God was "ABOUT TO DO"...

Agreed.

...to Satan and his devils in John's near future when Satan's THEN PRESENT "short time" of Rev. 12:12 was over.

Well no. What was that you said about, like, if you were shown any error in your arguments, you would look at them honestly? Oh, wait... maybe that was @Ghada... But yeah, plenty of that to go around...

Grace and peace to you.