aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
brightmorningstar to tarmack09
Amen!
To help understand the verses in Exodus and Numbers, please read this. I think the meaning is clear, and it doesn't involve rape.
Deuteronomny 21:10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, 11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; 12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; {pare: or, suffer to grow: Heb. make, or, dress} 13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. 14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.
The following passage is about a Hebrew man selling his daughter in peace time.
Exodus 21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. (See vv 2- 6 for menservants.) There seems to be an assumption that if a master buys a girl, he might want to marry her. In this case, she has rights - residence, marital relations, food and clothes. And to be retained, if she has had children.
8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. Betrothal was a period of time when a woman and man were married in every way except the sexual relations. Normally, it would be a great disappointment to a woman if the man who had betrothed her to himself, finally decided he didn't 'like' her enough to go ahead when the time came. I'm not sure how much time would be involved between a slave and her master - maybe less than a year. A year was an average amount of time for an intended couple to get to know each other personally.
9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. 10 If he take him another [wife]; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. 11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money. Note: a man could have as many wives as he could afford, if he wanted more than one. He could not sell an ex-wife to anyone else. To get rid of her, he had to let her go free.
Numbers 31. Obviously, Moses had expected all the people to be killed in the war. The reality of having not killed them all, caused him to make a compromise. No israelite was permitted to take another man's wife. That would be to break the law. That's why all the married women were killed. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. The rules in Deuteronomy 21 apply here.
Remember that in idolatry, fornication was an act of worship. That's why all the women - even unmarried women - who were not virgins - were to be slain. If a man takes a virgin to be his wife, he knows that her children are his. This is not a silly point. It matters very much to every man. The Midianite woman would become one flesh with her Israelite husband, and from then on she, and her children, would be counted as a member of Israel, through his circumcision.
Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. When this happens, (if it has not already) as in every other time Jerusalem has been attacked, God has sent, or permitted it, because of the people's spiritual adultery. But, He always sees to it that there are escapees, and He always punishes the nations who have harmed Israel - because He always would prefer for Israel to repent and turn back to Him.
I think it's a mistake to read Zech 14 like it's one linear description of a series of consecutive events. Previous chapters in Zechariah cannot be read that way, as we see from the observation made by John in John 19:37, and the obvious reference to Jesus Christ's death, in Zechariah 13:6.
Hello aspen2,
Thanks for your very clear response. I have a few more thoughts.
There is no such thing as a 'Christian homosexual'.
There are Christians (many), who used to be 'homosexual', but they turned away from that sin when they came to Christ; and that makes them heterosexual, whether they feel like it or not. The feelings of heterosexuality may take time to catch up with the spiritual truth; but, the homosexual feelings are to be ignored, resisted, strangled to death by abstinence, (mortified), and given no grounds whatever, to thrive in any person calling themself a Christian.
Now I KNOW it doesn't 'feel' like that to many who turn to Christ, but at the time they turn to Christ they have to know that any continuance in homosexual relations, is the very real fruit which will tell both themselves and the world, what kind of tree they are, and whether they've been grafted into the true Vine, Jesus Christ, or not.
There is an exceptionally strong spirit involved in homosexual behaviour. It has to be strong, to overwhelm the normal maleness of a man who wants to be with a woman. To take away the ground in the person's life on which that spirit dwells, it is ESSENTIAL that the man (or woman) THINKS DIFFERENTLY about themselves and their sexuality. Unless they MAKE a change of attitude which lines up with the freedom wherewith the Son has MADE them free, the bondage will linger.
It is not true for everyone, that when the Holy Spirit comes into their life, every other spirit leaves without a battle. So, if the homosexuals you know are in churches where the demonic spiritual involvement is ignored or overlooked, then you need to look for ministers who know how to counsel and pray for them. Here is an online resource: http://www.desertstream.org/.
I know what you're saying, in that while anyone is in idolatry instead of worshipping God, they will reap what they are sowing. God will see to it.
But, they are responsible. God will hold them responsible. That's what Romans 1: 16 to the end of Romans 2, is about.
A man who resists all temptation is still under attack, and of course, may sin in other ways, but if he can resist sinning against his own body through homosexual fornication, he will be better off spiritually, I believe - even though it will seem to him to be a huge cost to pay - not pandering to his flesh in that way. Same goes for avoiding heterosexual fornication.
Well, I guess we will just have to disagree about the existence of Christian homosexuals. I believe their are people who are Christian who struggle and fail to remain celibate who are committed to Christ.
I believe God will hold all sinners responsible for their sin. But, for now, they are allowed to exist as sinners.
aspen2,
Sorry as I said, I can love other men but I don’t have any sexual based activity with them. Love is the same, it’s the sex that is different.
No they aren’t. You were asked what more they were and as usual you didn’t answer.
I am not obligated to answer any of your posts and I will not be manipulated or goaded into doing so; nor will I feel pressured to provide you answer after answer until you feel satisfied. I am in this discussion for recreational purposes - I could careless who wins.
Homosexual relationships are like heterosexual relationships - they involve sex, intimacy, friendship, companionship, partnership, and love. They also involve misunderstanding, guilt, insecurity, jealousy, and resentment. I know Christians like to pretend that homosexual relationships are all about selfish sex, and only a real heterosexual relationship is deep and meaningful - it is just not true.
It is funny, when I point out the errors in your logic - you accuse me of arguing for homosexuality or using lgbt arguments - you are forgetting that just because God has declared homosexuality to a sin doesn't mean that all heterosexual marriages are RIGHT or that all Christian arguments for heterosexual marriage and against homosexual marriage are LOGICAL.
Homosexuality is a sin because God declared it to be sinful, not because it is less than heterosexual marriage or only includes monstrous reprobates who hate God and want to give Him the finger every time they leer at another person of the same sex.
Why do Christians have to demonize sinners?? It is necessary so that we do not feel guilty for marginalizing them?