Paul claimed 3 times that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality.

[covenantee]

Time to, instead of just ignoring your immature, childish and hate filled remarks, is to put you on full ignore.

To me you lack, honor, character, and integrity. Goodbye!

The New Covenant prevails.

Praise the Lord.

 

[Timtofly]

Why would you jump to such a conclusion? What I'm denying is the church's penchant for believing some animated entity, be it soul or spirit, should go directly to an afterlife...be it purgatory, heaven, or hell, or some other Valhalla or whatever. The soul is not a being in and of itself outside the body. It is the composite of body and breath/spirit that forms the soul...a living being. The moment any part of that combination of taken away in death, the should ceases to be. Hence the numerous passages throughout scripture that express that our thoughts, our plans, even our worship and praise, does not happen in death. Which is why the Christian hope it's and always had been bound up in the resurrection. The resurrection of Christ is proof that one day... The last day according to Jesus... He would come again and raise us to life.

Yet even Jesus claims to bring people with Him. People with a soul and physical body just like Jesus has.

Only us are still in dead flesh that can enter Paradise. But those in a physical Paradise, already have a physical body.

That was the difference at the Cross. The first resurrection happened for all the OT redeemed. They all and every one since the Cross already have God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

We on earth, are waiting for our permanent incorruptible physical body, and that is the first resurrection, we are waiting for. To shed Adam's flesh for God's permanent building. 2 Corinthians 5:1.

You seem to argue there is nothing in heaven until one final climactic hour, then every thing ceases altogether. After that point, who knows what happens?

 

[Brakelite]

You seem to argue there is nothing in heaven until one final climactic hour, then every thing ceases altogether. After that point, who knows what happens?

What sayeth the scriptures? What I seem to argue is irrelevant.
KJV John 6:39-40, 44-51, 53-54
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

BKJV John 11:23-27
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

KJV Daniel 12:1-2
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

KJV 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
(God is bringing the dead to heaven by the power and word of God Son. Jesus does not set as much as one foot on the earth at the second coming. He takes His bride home for the marriage supper. Of course, the meek do inherit the earth, but that's the new one. Not the broken down devastated ruined filthy war torn and polluted poisonous earth that will result after the plagues.)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Notice, Jesus and Paul agree that those who are dead are asleep. Not awake and aware somewhere else.

 

[ewq1938]

What sayeth the scriptures? What I seem to argue is irrelevant.
KJV John 6:39-40, 44-51, 53-54
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

BKJV John 11:23-27
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

KJV Daniel 12:1-2
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

KJV 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
(God is bringing the dead to heaven by the power and word of God Son. Jesus does not set as much as one foot on the earth at the second coming. He takes His bride home for the marriage supper. Of course, the meek do inherit the earth, but that's the new one. Not the broken down devastated ruined filthy war torn and polluted poisonous earth that will result after the plagues.)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Notice, Jesus and Paul agree that those who are dead are asleep. Not awake and aware somewhere else.

You left out Rev 20 that is in harmony with other passages that the saved are resurrected when Christ returns, while the rest have to wait. (until the thousand years are over)

 

[Brakelite]

Correct.

You left out Rev 20 that is in harmony with other passages that the saved are resurrected when Christ returns, while the rest have to wait. (until the thousand years are over)

True. And from where do those gimme from who have been waiting since the day they died... Many of whom died at the second coming?

 

[ewq1938]

Correct.

True. And from where do those gimme from who have been waiting since the day they died...

What does "gimmie from" mean?

 

[Timtofly]

What sayeth the scriptures? What I seem to argue is irrelevant.
KJV John 6:39-40, 44-51, 53-54
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

BKJV John 11:23-27
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

KJV Daniel 12:1-2
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

KJV 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
(God is bringing the dead to heaven by the power and word of God Son. Jesus does not set as much as one foot on the earth at the second coming. He takes His bride home for the marriage supper. Of course, the meek do inherit the earth, but that's the new one. Not the broken down devastated ruined filthy war torn and polluted poisonous earth that will result after the plagues.)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Notice, Jesus and Paul agree that those who are dead are asleep. Not awake and aware somewhere else.

You seem to fail to notice that the Cross was the last day resurrection.

All those asleep prior to the Cross are no longer asleep. But they are the same people that Jesus brings with Him. Jesus is not leading a group of humans who are sound asleep. Have you ever heard of a sleeping army heading towards a rally point?

When Paul wrote that it had not even been 40 years, since the Cross. Thousands had passed on, and Paul could not prevent their resurrection. Would you want some person on earth to prevent your resurrection, and tell you you have to taste death until X amount of years?

It has been over 1900 years since Paul wrote that. Those alive are still waiting to be caught up as alive. Until they are not alive, and no longer waiting, but physically enjoying Paradise. Now billions are enjoying Paradise, and maybe a few billion waiting to join them. But both are physically waiting, not some are asleep, while those on earth are dead. Because those in Paradise are not asleep.

"them also which sleep in Jesus"

We are 1992 years removed from those who sleep in Jesus. We are also 1992 years removed from that last day resurrection. Where does Paul mention he is going to go sleep somewhere? Does sleep now mean 2 Corinthians 5:1, a new permanent incorruptible physical body? Or does sleep mean they rest better at night in their new permanent incorruptible physical bodies? John claims in Revelation 7:15

"Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple."

That does not sound like they get much sleep, unless they serve in shifts? But why do they even need rest if they have permanent incorruptible physical bodies?

Do you not understand the change between only having a soul in Abraham's bosom, and the first resurrection at the Cross, where now a soul and a physical body exist serving God, day and night in His temple? Perhaps Paul was too close to the time of the Cross to properly point that out. But yet he did, and some here are still in the first century mindset prior to the Cross waiting for the Cross to happen. What Jesus pointed out on earth prior to the Cross, was the Cross. It was not always about His Second Coming 2,000 years later. John 5 is not all about the end. It was about the work of the Cross, until the end comes. And the end is still over 1,000 years away. The Second Coming is not over 1,000 years away.

When Paul wrote, he was not told the end would be 3,000 years away. He thought it would happen in his lifetime, not billions of souls later. All he had as context were all the OT redeemed, and a couple thousand martyrs.

John experienced a 1,000 year period after the Second Coming. We are still here over 1900 years later. We should see this from a slightly different perspective than Paul did, no?

 

[bbyrd009]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's on the resurrection day. But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.

Here below are the three texts.

Ephesians
2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.

Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Finally in the verse above Paul states that we reign in life through Jesus.

All of these verses were a current reality while alive in the physical body almost two thousand years ago. If it was a reality back, then it is still a reality today.

Paul ties three events directly to Revelation 20:4 "that we have been made alive", "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms" and that "we reign (in life) through Jesus".

Why do so many Christians not accept this even though Paul declares it? Because they are focused on it being physical not spiritual. They focus on the physical because it mentions saints that were beheaded by the beast and the thousand years.

But let's let scripture interpret scripture. Paul teaches that its spiritual and what John is saying in Revelation 20:4 is that even though the saints are beheaded they still live and reign spiritually the soul doesn't die with the body. It's a promise even though you may die for Jesus you will still live and reign spiritually. The beast can kill the body but not the soul.

Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan.

This does not take away a future physical resurrection at the end of our world.

word
gl with that here though

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Why would you jump to such a conclusion? What I'm denying is the church's penchant for believing some animated entity, be it soul or spirit, should go directly to an afterlife...be it purgatory, heaven, or hell, or some other Valhalla or whatever. The soul is not a being in and of itself outside the body. It is the composite of body and breath/spirit that forms the soul...a living being. The moment any part of that combination of taken away in death, the should ceases to be. Hence the numerous passages throughout scripture that express that our thoughts, our plans, even our worship and praise, does not happen in death. Which is why the Christian hope it's and always had been bound up in the resurrection. The resurrection of Christ is proof that one day... The last day according to Jesus... He would come again and raise us to life.

Well brakelite, you are incorrect.

Paul in Corinth specifically said that to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. Paul declared a trifold blessing on believers, that God would bless body, soul and spirit. Teh soul and spirit are immaterial parts of man that are immortal. Jesus' death insured that after the final resurrection, all people who ever lived will be immortal, in heaven or hell.

There is conscious life after death!

 

[bbyrd009]

Paul in Corinth specifically said that to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord

cannot be Quoted one, single time!
weird, huh

 

[ewq1938]

Teh soul and spirit are immaterial parts of man that are immortal.

If they were immortal they wouldn't be able to be killed or destroyed.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

cannot be Quoted one, single time!
weird, huh

Well here is one, once again for the record!

2 Corinthians 5:5-8

King James Version

​

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If they were immortal they wouldn't be able to be killed or destroyed.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Well now you need to understand more than just quoting English.

First destroy does not always mean to erase from existence. It is teh Greek word Apollymi which can mean to kill (wipe from existence) or ruin. Context determines its use.

And as we know that the lost dead are reunited with their bodies and cast into teh lake of fire and there suffer for eternity, he it means to ruin or make desolate.

 

[BarneyFife]

Well brakelite, you are incorrect.

Paul in Corinth specifically said that to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. Paul declared a trifold blessing on believers, that God would bless body, soul and spirit. Teh soul and spirit are immaterial parts of man that are immortal. Jesus' death insured that after the final resurrection, all people who ever lived will be immortal, in heaven or hell.

There is conscious life after death!

.
.
Eventually, yes.

However, regarding the unfortunate, erroneous objection that the righteous dead go to heaven immediately at death, and that man, therefore, possesses an immortal spirit, is evident from Paul's statement in 2 Corinthians 5:8:


The passage in its context reads as follows: "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (for we walk by faith, not by sight) we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him." 2 Cor. 5:1-9.


Paul here deals with three possible states:


1. "Our earthly house." "At home in the body." "Absent from the Lord." This house can be "dissolved." "In this we groan."


2. "Unclothed." "Naked."


3. "A building of God." "House not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.....Our house which is from heaven." "Clothed upon." "Present with the Lord." "Absent from the body."


If the "earthly house" means our present, mortal body, as all agree, then unless there is clear proof to the contrary, it would logically follow that our heavenly house is the immortal body.


And thus by a process of elimination, the "unclothed," "naked" state can mean none other than that state of dissolution known as death. We are assured of the desired third state because we have "the earnest [pledge] of the Spirit." Verse 5. But how will God's Spirit finally ensure our reaching this desired state? Paul answers, "If the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Rom. 8: 11.

Dr. H. C. G. Moule well says:​

​

​

"That same Spirit, who, by uniting us to Christ, made actual our redemption, shall surely, in ways to us unknown, carry the process to its glorious crown, and be somehow the Efficient Cause of 'the redemption of our body."'-The Expositor's Bible, comment on Romans 8: 11.​

Now, if the fulfilling to us of that pledge of the Spirit is the change that takes place in our "mortal bodies" at the resurrection, then we must conclude that the change to the third state, that of being "clothed upon" with the heavenly house, comes at the resurrection, and is the change in our bodies from mortal to immortal.


Paul declares further: "We know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." Rom. 8:22, 23.


That he is here dealing with the same problem as in 2 Corinthians 5 is evident:


Romans 8:22, 23

"Groan within ourselves."

"First fruits of the Spirit."

"Waiting for."

"Redemption of our body."


2 Corinthians 5:1-8

"We groan."

"Earnest of the Spirit."

"Earnestly desiring."

"Clothed upon" with heavenly house.


Thus we conclude again that the change from the "earthly house" to the "house which is from heaven" is an event that involves the "redemption of our body," which "redemption," all agree, occurs at the resurrection day. (See also Phil. 3:20,2 1.)


The apostle states that he longs to be "clothed upon" with the heavenly house, "that mortality might be swallowed up of life," or, as the American Revised Version states it, "that what is mortal may be swallowed up of life." 2 Cor. 5:4. In other words, "what is mortal" loses its mortality by this change.


According to the immortal-soul doctrine, "what is mortal" is the body only, which at death dissolves in the grave; but the soul simply continues on in its immortal state, freed from the mortal body. But Paul longs to be "clothed" with the heavenly house, "that what is mortal may be swallowed up of life." Thus by their own tenets, the immortal-soul advocates must agree that Paul in this passage is not dealing with an experience that takes place at death.


In his first letter to the Corinthians, Paul declared, "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed." When? "At the last trump." And what will take place? "The dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." And what will result from this? "When this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Cor. 15:51-54.


This last phrase parallels the language in 2 Corinthians 5: "What is mortal [or subject to death] may be swallowed up of life." The swallowing up of death, or mortality, is still a future event.


That Paul expected to be "clothed upon" with the heavenly house at the resurrection day is the certain conclusion from all his statements. Being "present with the Lord" is contingent upon being "clothed" with the heavenly house. Therefore the being "present with the Lord" awaits the resurrection day. How beautifully this agrees with the apostle's statement to the Thessalonians, that at the resurrection we are caught up "to meet the Lord... and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:17.


If it seems strange to some that Paul should speak of putting off one "house" and putting on another when he meant simply the change in his body from mortal to immortal. We would remind them that he uses a similar figure of speech when describing the change that takes place in the heart at conversion. He declares that we should "put off... the old man," and "put on the new man." (Eph. 4:22-24)


The fact that Paul coupled together the being freed from the earthly house and the being clothed upon with the heavenly does not prove that he expected an immediate transfer from one to the other. He makes specific reference to an "unclothed," a "naked," state.


Well might Paul "groan" for the day when he could put off this mortal body, with all the evils suggested by it, and could put on, be "clothed upon" with, the promised immortal body. In which body he would be ready "to meet" and to "ever be with the Lord."


In light of the foregoing, we need not spend much time on 2 Peter 1: 14, which is also mentioned by true-death objectors. The passage in its context reads as follows: "Yes, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ bath showed me. Moreover I will endeavor that you may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance." 2 Peter 1:13-15.


The reasoning of the immortal-soul advocate here runs about as follows:


Peter said that he dwelt in a tabernacle, and that "I must put off this my tabernacle." Therefore, this proves that Peter had an immortal soul, indicated by the "I" and "my," and that he, looking at his body, his tabernacle, thought of it as something apart from himself.


We are all agreed that Peter refers to his death when he speaks of putting "off this tabernacle."


Christ spoke to him as to his death: "When thou was young, thou girded thyself, and walked whither thou would: but when thou shall be old, thou shall stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou would not. This spoke he, signifying by what death he [Peter] should glorify God." John 21:18,19.


Notice that here Christ does not make a distinction between Peter and his "tabernacle," as though they were two, and separate. And John, in recording this forecast of Peter's martyrdom, speaks of the "death he should die." Not Peter's "tabernacle" dying, but "he" dying.


This agrees with Peter's own words: "After my decease." We agree with the objector that the "I" and the "my" of verse 14 refer to Peter. But is it not equally evident that the "my" of verse 15 also refers to Peter? Yes. But in this verse Peter says, "My decease." When Peter is allowed to speak for himself, the apparent case for the immortal-soul doctrine disappears as immortal entities do not suffer decease.

The objection also echoes that of the original adversary of souls in the Garden of Eden:

"Ye shall not surely die..." (Genesis 3:4)


The a

X
.
.

 

[BarneyFife]

First destroy does not always mean to erase from existence.

.
.
Yeah, it really does—especially when God says it.
.—
.

It is teh Greek word Apollymi which can mean to kill (wipe from existence) or ruin.

.
.
"Kill (wipe from existence)."

Is that anything like "erase from existence?"

Hmm, "ruin," Greek...

kill
ἀποκτεννόντων (apoktennontōn)
Verb - Present Participle Active - Genitive Masculine Plural
Strong's 615: To put to death, kill; fig: I abolish. From apo and kteino; to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy.

destroy
ἀπολέσαι (apolesai)
Verb - Aorist Infinitive Active
Strong's 622: From apo and the base of olethros; to destroy fully, literally or figuratively.

Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

[This is also the meaning of 622 /apóllymi dating back to Homer (900 bc.]

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from apo and same as olethros
Definition
to destroy, destroy utterly
NASB Translation
bring (1), destroy (17), destroyed (9), dying (1), end (1), killed (1), lose (10), loses (7), lost (14), passed away (1), perish (14), perishable (1), perished (4), perishes (1), perishing (6), put to death (1), ruined (3).

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From what I'm getting here, Christ threatening to merely ruin¿ -or- figuratively destroy (best-case scenario?¿) both body and soul as final punishment doesn't seem likely. None of it sounds like eternal torment, either—that's for sure.
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Context determines its use.

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Not so much.
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And as we know that the lost dead are reunited with their bodies and cast into teh lake of fire and there suffer for eternity, he it means to ruin or make desolate.

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Except that "we" don't know that at all.
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[bbyrd009]

Well here is one, once again for the record!

2 Corinthians 5:5-8​

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King James Version​

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5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Rn, youve done this at least twice now ok, and idc about your warped English Edition, that you cherry-picked out of all the others to make your warped point. and the only reason you dont remember slinking off, not replying, and being gone for days after i humbly suggested a better xlation was bc i was nice about it. Now i have both of those on speed dial somewhere, so here’s what you can do, you can put me on ignore, go play the victim to somebody and maybe get me banned for like the fourth time, or ill dig up the threads, where the ball is in your court on both of them, ok? As i recall my post was the last one in both threads, so it shouldnt be too hard for you to check your ground? But the one thing neither of you hypocrites can do is back up what you are saying, nor can you address the other Scripture i Quoted, and i am confident of this bc you wouldnt do it the first two times.

and that goes double for blondie, who would not even reply a single time. You are both lying liars and imo you both know it

He who says that he knows any thing, doesnt…
sux for you, huh

 

[bbyrd009]

There is conscious life after death!

Who is it that disturbs my rest
and you are prolly going to be sorrier than me here, k

thank Yah i pinged you before this forum software went tits up
ball’s in your court again bro
bye

 

[L.A.M.B.]

@Marty fox

I am sorry that you either have been taught wrong or are using erroneous material to study.

We have on other occasions had these words. Your beliefs must be back by the scriptures, rightly divided and in context under the teacher the Holy Spirit. Seems as though you've done none of these.

If this is the teaching in your church, then get out of it. If you are finding these thoughts through multiple commentaries or studies, video,YouTube speakers, ect ect, plz stop.

Get in a prayer closet, open your heart for God to fill you with an unction to feast from him. Then commit to the word of God only and let the Holy Spirit reveal the mysteries into you.

 

[bbyrd009]

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord.

see, you (or we) can be confident all you like; doesnt mean that it will happen
“We are cock-sure, I say, and even wish that we were already dead, and partying with Jesus”
and see, note how they always drop the whole lesson of the passage, that being “However, we seek to be pleasing to God whether present or absent,” and you will of course never, ever read any cult-of-sol Christians repeat that part, right?

Search it and see; there’s like a billion hits for that on the web, all clueless know it alls who drop the ending, and talk about all the crap they know, unflinchingly, which the v is even set up as a trap for imo

16He writes this way in all his letters,g speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort,h as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

so, buyer beware ok

 

[bbyrd009]

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Yeah, it really does—especially when God says it.
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"Kill (wipe from existence)."

Is that anything like "erase from existence?"

Hmm, "ruin," Greek...

kill
ἀποκτεννόντων (apoktennontōn)
Verb - Present Participle Active - Genitive Masculine Plural
Strong's 615: To put to death, kill; fig: I abolish. From apo and kteino; to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy.

destroy
ἀπολέσαι (apolesai)
Verb - Aorist Infinitive Active
Strong's 622: From apo and the base of olethros; to destroy fully, literally or figuratively.

Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

[This is also the meaning of 622 /apóllymi dating back to Homer (900 bc.]

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from apo and same as olethros
Definition
to destroy, destroy utterly
NASB Translation
bring (1), destroy (17), destroyed (9), dying (1), end (1), killed (1), lose (10), loses (7), lost (14), passed away (1), perish (14), perishable (1), perished (4), perishes (1), perishing (6), put to death (1), ruined (3).

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From what I'm getting here, Christ threatening to merely ruin¿ -or- figuratively destroy (best-case scenario?¿) both body and soul as final punishment doesn't seem likely. None of it sounds like eternal torment, either—that's for sure.
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.

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Not so much.
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Except that "we" don't know that at all.
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you are talking to a wall Barn, best of luck there