Paul taught that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality

[grafted branch]

This statement is also true of those who were faithful to God in their lifetimes during the past millennium years from 968-967 BC until AD 33 (when that millennium ended). By faith, they lived and reigned with Christ during that literal thousand years, and shared in the benefits of having Satan's deception of the nations bound during this time period.

Many (but not all of these souls) were martyred for their faithful testimony concerning the word of the Lord and for predicting the coming of the Just One. And there were those who refused to give homage to the Sea Beast when it first began its existence back under Nebuchadnezzar's conquest of Jerusalem.

John also saw others who refused to participate in the use of the mark beginning in 19 BC which the Jewish religious leadership required of everybody coming to worship at the temple (the required use of the Tyrian shekel coin which gave homage to Rome's pagan gods).


These thrones were the 12 apostles of the Lamb to whom Christ granted the authority to judge the twelve tribes of Israel during the days of the early church in Jerusalem (Matt. 19:28). In the regeneration when Christ was resurrected in AD 33 and sat on the throne of His glory, He delegated to His 12 apostles this enthroned authority to judge matters in the early Jerusalem church.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.



This verse would seem to fit with the time that the millennium starts. It shows a time when the dead are not blessed and a time “henceforth” when the dead, who die in the Lord, are blessed. Prior to the cross believers went to Sheol, now to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

What are your thoughts on Revelation 14:13? Wouldn’t Revelation 20:4 be showing the “henceforth” condition of the dead?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.



This verse would seem to fit with the time that the millennium starts. It shows a time when the dead are not blessed and a time “henceforth” when the dead, who die in the Lord, are blessed. Prior to the cross believers went to Sheol, now to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

What are your thoughts on Revelation 14:13? Wouldn’t Revelation 20:4 be showing the “henceforth” condition of the dead?

Good question, grafted branch. The timing of the "henceforth" term in Rev. 14:13 was a question I also asked our Sunday school teacher years ago. He had no answer for me back then.

But after studying much more on this, I know exactly when that "henceforth" time started. And it was NOT at the time the millennium started. That "henceforth" time in Rev. 14:13 came at the END of the millennium, when the "First resurrection" of Christ the First-fruits and the "remnant of the dead" Matthew 27:52-53 saints had occurred (the 144,000 "First-fruits" of Rev. 14:4).

This "henceforth" time began at Christ's resurrection-day ascension in AD 33 (at the expiration of the millennium). Christ ascending to His Father in heaven that day and being anointed as our Great High Priest accomplished several things. It made the way possible for the spirits of the saints to go directly to heaven from then on, instead of to "Abraham's bosom" as they had done up until then.

It also accomplished a victory over Satan, cast out of heaven with his devils down to earth at Christ's resurrection-day ascension. After that, Satan forever lost any further ability to accuse the brethren in heaven's "court". The works that the saints had done while in this life were then able to "FOLLOW THEM" to heaven as their spirits became "present with the Lord" at their physical death (as Paul described in 2 Cor. 5:8).

"Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth" meant that from the time of Christ's resurrection-day ascension, the spirits of all the dead saints could then go directly into God's presence, with their works following them there. Satan and his devils were then banned from heaven at Christ's ascension, which allowed the spirits of the departed saints to "rest from their labors" without having the accuser of the brethren challenging them in heaven's "courtroom".

This is why Revelation 12:12 says after Satan's being cast out of heaven down to earth, "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them". These who were dwelling in heaven weren't just the angels rejoicing at Satan being cast out of heaven; it was also the spirits of the righteous dead, rejoicing that Satan their accuser had just been forever cast out - never to return to heaven's realm again to accuse them of anything - now that Christ their intercessor's blood sacrifice had been accepted by God.

 

[grafted branch]

Good question, grafted branch. The timing of the "henceforth" term in Rev. 14:13 was a question I also asked our Sunday school teacher years ago. He had no answer for me back then.

But after studying much more on this, I know exactly when that "henceforth" time started. And it was NOT at the time the millennium started. That "henceforth" time in Rev. 14:13 came at the END of the millennium, when the "First resurrection" of Christ the First-fruits and the "remnant of the dead" Matthew 27:52-53 saints had occurred (the 144,000 "First-fruits" of Rev. 14:4).

This "henceforth" time began at Christ's resurrection-day ascension in AD 33 (at the expiration of the millennium). Christ ascending to His Father in heaven that day and being anointed as our Great High Priest accomplished several things. It made the way possible for the spirits of the saints to go directly to heaven from then on, instead of to "Abraham's bosom" as they had done up until then.

It also accomplished a victory over Satan, cast out of heaven with his devils down to earth at Christ's resurrection-day ascension. After that, Satan forever lost any further ability to accuse the brethren in heaven's "court". The works that the saints had done while in this life were then able to "FOLLOW THEM" to heaven as their spirits became "present with the Lord" at their physical death (as Paul described in 2 Cor. 5:8).

"Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth" meant that from the time of Christ's resurrection-day ascension, the spirits of all the dead saints could then go directly into God's presence, with their works following them there. Satan and his devils were then banned from heaven at Christ's ascension, which allowed the spirits of the departed saints to "rest from their labors" without having the accuser of the brethren challenging them in heaven's "courtroom".

This is why Revelation 12:12 says after Satan's being cast out of heaven down to earth, "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them". These who were dwelling in heaven weren't just the angels rejoicing at Satan being cast out of heaven; it was also the spirits of the righteous dead, rejoicing that Satan their accuser had just been forever cast out - never to return to heaven's realm again to accuse them of anything - now that Christ their intercessor's blood sacrifice had been accepted by God.

Ok, very good, I agree with what you’re saying. I’m having a hard time seeing the millennium being a 968-967 BC to 33 AD event.

Satan and his devils were then banned from heaven at Christ's ascension, which allowed the spirits of the departed saints to "rest from their labors" without having the accuser of the brethren challenging them in heaven's "courtroom".

In Revelation 20:3 Satan is cast into the pit with a seal put upon him. In Revelation 12:7 the war in heaven is between Michael and the dragon (Satan) and their angels. Heaven and the pit are basically opposite each other, how are you solving the issue of Satan being in the pit and at the war in heaven with both happening during the millennium?

 

[3 Resurrections]

In Revelation 20:3 Satan is cast into the pit with a seal put upon him. In Revelation 12:7 the war in heaven is between Michael and the dragon (Satan) and their angels. Heaven and the pit are basically opposite each other, how are you solving the issue of Satan being in the pit and at the war in heaven with both happening during the millennium?

Also a good question. The answer is that the bottomless pit (the abysson) is not a particular location but a condition or state of being. Just as Christ was also said to be in the abyss while His body was in the tomb in a non-functioning condition of the grave (as Romans 10:7 describes the abyss).

We know that the "chain" binding Satan was not physical iron links attached to Satan, and the "seal" was not a physical stamp put upon Satan either. These terms were meant to portray certain conditions under which Satan was restricted for the duration of those thousand years.

It's the same for the symbolism of the abyss portrayed in Revelation 20:3. Satan's deception of the nations being bound in that abyss meant that Satan was in a condition of not being able to deceive the nations freely as he had been doing through the centuries prior to that time.

The way this deception of Satan was bound was due to the great surge in the ministry of the prophets during this time, as well as the fame of Solomon's kingdom of peace among the nations, and the splendor of the temple he built for the Lord at Jerusalem, starting with the temple's foundation stone being laid down in 968 / 967 BC. When the knowledge of the God of Israel began spreading throughout the nations, the nations' ignorance about the God of Israel began to wane, and Satan lost his ability to keep them ignorantly deceived.

It was not necessary for the terms of the millennium that the nations' knowledge of the God of Israel had to result in a saved response for everyone who heard about God. But once having heard about the God of Israel, they could no longer claim that they were deceived and in ignorance about Him. THAT was the purpose of the Rev. 20 millennium.

There were a literal thousand years from Solomon's physical temple foundation stone being laid down in 968 / 967 BC until AD 33 when Christ became the true spiritual foundation stone - the "chief cornerstone" which the builders had rejected. With Christ's finished cross work and His ascension to His Father in heaven on the day of His resurrection in AD 33, the millennium came to an end, and Satan with his devils were then cast out of heaven and loosed into the world to once again deceive the nations in full fury.

Satan knew he only had a "short time" after AD 33 to do his deceptive worst efforts among the nations, but fortunately, the blessing of the Holy Spirit was also poured out in full force on the day of Pentecost to combat this increased deception. That is why we have a constant drumbeat in the NT of "Be not deceived...", "let no man deceive you...",etc., because Satan was then released from the abyss and operating again in full deceptive mode, like a lion seeking whom he could devour with that deception.

 

[grafted branch]

It was not necessary for the terms of the millennium that the nations' knowledge of the God of Israel had to result in a saved response for everyone who heard about God. But once having heard about the God of Israel, they could no longer claim that they were deceived and in ignorance about Him. THAT was the purpose of the Rev. 20 millennium.

In Colossians 1:23 (written around 62AD) it says the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven. Wouldn’t this mean that Satan was unable to deceive after the millennium if it ended in 33AD? In Revelation 20:8-9 it appears Satan is successful in deceiving the nations since they compass the camp of the saints.

Do you see the gathering for the battle and Satan deceiving, after the millennium, as two separate unrelated things?

 

[Marty fox]

Except per Amil, this according to some Amils, these in verse 4---the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands---are not alive on the earth. They are in heaven in a disembodied state. There is no way in a million years that Ephesians 2:4-6 is being applied to someone in a disembodied state dwelling in heaven awaiting their bodily resurrection.

BTW, what are you trying to do here? If you look at the bottom of this thread where it lists Similar threads, note this thread---Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality. Replies 461 Views 10K

Wow, 461 replies, 10k views, and that you still failed to prove what you set out to prove, lol, proved by the fact you needed to start yet another thread involving the same topic. I've heard that the 3rd time is a charm, except this would only be the 2nd time. Maybe when you fail to prove what you are setting out to prove per this 2nd one, and then start a third one, maybe that is when you will get lucky and that the third time will be a charm?

If you check the thread at the bottom you will see that it isn't the same thread just a part of it I am planning to discuss each of the three in different new threads

 

[Marty fox]

You must be a different Marty than the one I recall on BibleForums years ago. The Marty I recall back then didn't take things like that personal like you are taking it here. I wasn't being sarcastic nor insulting, I was half heartedly joking. I won't do that any more since you apparently now take everything the wrong way and assume the worst about someone you disagree with.

To illustrate the difference between you and me, had you said word for word to me what I said to you, this is likely how I would have responded.

HA Ha, Marty. That's a good one.

Then I would have just left it at that, even if I thought you were being sarcastic when you said those things. So what if you were? Big deal. Nothing to get all bent out of shape about. In my case, I was just having a bit of fun is all. After all, I have been knowing you for years. Lighten up, have a little fun sometimes. Not everything has to be serious all the time.

Okay I remember who you are now David.

I'm sure that you would understand that if I had no idea who you are or your personality your post sounds very cocky and sarcastic and not debating at all. Finding out why someone post a thread is better than assuming why.

 

[3 Resurrections]

In Colossians 1:23 (written around 62AD) it says the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven. Wouldn’t this mean that Satan was unable to deceive after the millennium if it ended in 33AD? In Revelation 20:8-9 it appears Satan is successful in deceiving the nations since they compass the camp of the saints.

Do you see the gathering for the battle and Satan deceiving, after the millennium, as two separate unrelated things?

The gathering for the battle of Gog was going to take place for the nations which were in the "four quarters of the earth", which was specifically the four corners of the land of Israel - not the world at large (as Ezekiel 7:2-3 defined this term). The Gog conflict originated with Zealot armies under various Zealot leaders which came out of their place in Galilee of the Gentiles in the "north parts" of the land of Israel. "Gog" was the name for Israel in the LXX version of Numbers 24:5-9. These Zealot leaders all converged on the city of Jerusalem (and the "camp of the saints") and ended up doing battle with each other in the years from AD 66-70. Each was trying to gain the upper hand over their fellow Israelites, so that the victor in Jerusalem could then challenge the Roman army and defeat them.

God Himself sent those Zealot leaders "strong delusion that they should believe a lie" (2 Thess. 2:11). God did this by releasing Satan from his millennial "chain" in AD 33 so that he could once more deceive the nations (which in this case were in the four corners of the land of Israel).

The lie each of the Zealot leaders believed was that they could become a military version of Daniel's prophesied Messiah the Prince over Israel. Each of these Zealot leaders believed that if they could become "King of the Jews" over their Zealot rivals, that God would see to it that they defeated Rome and would become the master of the known world.

This lie is also what the 2 Thess. 2 "Man of Lawlessness" believed, who himself performed "lying wonders". This Zealot leader operated just like Satan with "all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish" and convinced others to follow him, to their destruction.

 

[grafted branch]

The gathering for the battle of Gog was going to take place for the nations which were in the "four quarters of the earth", which was specifically the four corners of the land of Israel - not the world at large (as Ezekiel 7:2-3 defined this term). The Gog conflict originated with Zealot armies under various Zealot leaders which came out of their place in Galilee of the Gentiles in the "north parts" of the land of Israel. "Gog" was the name for Israel in the LXX version of Numbers 24:5-9. These Zealot leaders all converged on the city of Jerusalem (and the "camp of the saints") and ended up doing battle with each other in the years from AD 66-70. Each was trying to gain the upper hand over their fellow Israelites, so that the victor in Jerusalem could then challenge the Roman army and defeat them.

God Himself sent those Zealot leaders "strong delusion that they should believe a lie" (2 Thess. 2:11). God did this by releasing Satan from his millennial "chain" in AD 33 so that he could once more deceive the nations (which in this case were in the four corners of the land of Israel).

The lie each of the Zealot leaders believed was that they could become a military version of Daniel's prophesied Messiah the Prince over Israel. Each of these Zealot leaders believed that if they could become "King of the Jews" over their Zealot rivals, that God would see to it that they defeated Rome and would become the master of the known world.

This lie is also what the 2 Thess. 2 "Man of Lawlessness" believed, who himself performed "lying wonders". This Zealot leader operated just like Satan with "all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish" and convinced others to follow him, to their destruction.

Ok, thanks for the explanations and pointing out the Ezekiel 7:2-3 four corners definition.

I was aware of the LXX use of the word “Gog” or “Gogite” instead of “Agag” or “Agagite”. Some time ago I did look at Ezekiel chapters 38 - 39 being fulfilled in Esther where Haman is called an Gogite. Apparently there are some LXX manuscripts that use the word “Gogite” instead of “Agagite” in Esther 3:1 and Esther 9:24 (Lewis B. Paton, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Book of Esther, page 194).

Perhaps the Revelation 20:8 Gog and Magog can be somehow be tied to the events in Esther or perhaps it’s an antitype?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Perhaps the Revelation 20:8 Gog and Magog can be somehow be tied to the events in Esther or perhaps it’s an antitype?

I've read others viewpoints before that also thought Gog was a battle taking place in Esther's time, but when you inspect the language in Ezekiel 38-39, this connection of Gog with Esther's time becomes impossible.

That is because Gog's battle was said to develop in the "latter days" (Ez. 38:16). Esther's context was not related at all to the "latter days" time.

Also, Gog's battle against Israel was going to be characterized as a time when "every man's sword shall be against HIS BROTHER." (Ez. 38:21). This verse described Gog engaged in a civil war in Israel, which is exactly what happened with the leaders of the Zealot factions battling each other and their fellow Israelites in Jerusalem whom they suspected of being Roman sympathizers. In Esther's time, that war was not waged with Israelites battling fellow Israelites. At that time, the Israelites were solidly united against their enemies with which Haman had plotted to slay them.

 

[grafted branch]

That is because Gog's battle was said to develop in the "latter days" (Ez. 38:16). Esther's context was not related at all to the "latter days" time.

The counter argument to that is that <319> doesn’t always mean latter day.

Genesis 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days <319>.

The phrase “in the last days” is the same phrase used in Ezekiel 38:16, but here it isn’t talking about the end of the world. These events happened in the lifetime of Jacob’s sons, we don’t anticipate a future fulfillment.

Also, Gog's battle against Israel was going to be characterized as a time when "every man's sword shall be against HIS BROTHER." (Ez. 38:21). This verse described Gog engaged in a civil war in Israel, which is exactly what happened with the leaders of the Zealot factions battling each other and their fellow Israelites in Jerusalem whom they suspected of being Roman sympathizers. In Esther's time, that war was not waged with Israelite battling fellow Israelites. At that time, the Israelites were solidly united against their enemies with which Haman had plotted to slay them.

As far as the civil war argument, I don’t see anything in my notes on that. I’m to have to think about that one.

 

[grafted branch]

Also, Gog's battle against Israel was going to be characterized as a time when "every man's sword shall be against HIS BROTHER." (Ez. 38:21). This verse described Gog engaged in a civil war in Israel, which is exactly what happened with the leaders of the Zealot factions battling each other and their fellow Israelites in Jerusalem whom they suspected of being Roman sympathizers. In Esther's time, that war was not waged with Israelites battling fellow Israelites. At that time, the Israelites were solidly united against their enemies with which Haman had plotted to slay them.

I have a lot of notes on Esther, here’s some arguments for an Ezekiel 38:21 fulfillment.

One of the arguments on Ezekiel 38:21 is that every man’s sword against his brother is referring to the Persian army sent by Haman.

And

ESTHER 8:17, 9:3
Many Persians decided to not destroy the Jews, but rather to defend them. Consequently, they destroyed themselves, just as Ezekiel 38 describes.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The counter argument to that is that <319> doesn’t always mean latter day.

Genesis 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days <319>.

The phrase “in the last days” is the same phrase used in Ezekiel 38:16, but here it isn’t talking about the end of the world. These events happened in the lifetime of Jacob’s sons, we don’t anticipate a future fulfillment.

I agree that the "last days" Jacob spoke about and the "latter days" of Ezekiel 38:16 were NOT referring to a future end of the world fulfillment as it is usually thought to be. It was actually the "latter end" of Israel as a people that both Jacob and Ezekiel 38 were speaking about. This was predicted by the Deuteronomy 32 "song of Moses" which was taught to the people of Israel, even before they entered the land of Canaan.

In Deuteronomy 32:29-36, God lamented over Israel, saying, "O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!" The Lord was going to "judge His people" when He saw that "their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left." Daniel also prophesied about Israel's "latter end", with the angel foretelling that it would take a "time, times, and half a time" (3-1/2 years) when "the power of the holy people shall be shattered" in Daniel 12:7.

Israel did NOT have a "latter end" as a people in Esther's time. At that time, they were preserved through that battle. And Gog's end was specifically fated to die on the mountains of Israel - not in Persia or the other nations. Also, the dead from Gog's battle in the land of Israel were going to be taken to the Jordan Valley at the top of the Dead Sea and buried there. The book of Esther never records this seven-month long burial process for the human remains scattered over Israel.

God said He would personally see to it that Gog came against Israel in Ezekiel 38:16. God predicted, "I will bring thee against my land...". It was the land of ISRAEL that God was particularly targeting in the Gog battle. This battle had been predicted "from old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied many years that I would bring thee against them..."

The battle in Esther was never predicted by the prophets of Israel from old time, but the prophets who passed on the oral tradition of the "latter end" of Israel in the song of Moses in Deuteronomy 32 did do this prophesying for many years, even before Israel had entered the land of Canaan.

The gathering for the Gog battle was predicted to take place "at the end of years" (which could not be true of Esther's time). In Ezekiel 38:7-8 in the LXX, it reads about Gog, "Be thou prepared, prepare thyself, thou, and all thy multitude that is assembled with thee, and thou shalt be to me for a guard. He shall be prepared after many days, and he shall come at the end of years, and shall come to a land that is brought back from the sword, when the people are gathered from many nations against the land of Israel, which was entirely desolate..." There was no "end of years" for Israel in Esther's time, but there was an "end of years" for Israel as a people after the 3-1/2 years of fighting in Jerusalem from AD 66-70.

 

[grafted branch]

I agree that the "last days" Jacob spoke about and the "latter days" of Ezekiel 38:16 were NOT referring to a future end of the world fulfillment as it is usually thought to be. It was actually the "latter end" of Israel as a people that both Jacob and Ezekiel 38 were speaking about. This was predicted by the Deuteronomy 32 "song of Moses" which was taught to the people of Israel, even before they entered the land of Canaan.

In Deuteronomy 32:29-36, God lamented over Israel, saying, "O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!" The Lord was going to "judge His people" when He saw that "their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left." Daniel also prophesied about Israel's "latter end", with the angel foretelling that it would take a "time, times, and half a time" (3-1/2 years) when "the power of the holy people shall be shattered" in Daniel 12:7.

Israel did NOT have a "latter end" as a people in Esther's time. At that time, they were preserved through that battle. And Gog's end was specifically fated to die on the mountains of Israel - not in Persia or the other nations. Also, the dead from Gog's battle in the land of Israel were going to be taken to the Jordan Valley at the top of the Dead Sea and buried there. The book of Esther never records this seven-month long burial process for the human remains scattered over Israel.

God said He would personally see to it that Gog came against Israel in Ezekiel 38:16. God predicted, "I will bring thee against my land...". It was the land of ISRAEL that God was particularly targeting in the Gog battle. This battle had been predicted "from old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied many years that I would bring thee against them..."

The battle in Esther was never predicted by the prophets of Israel from old time, but the prophets who passed on the oral tradition of the "latter end" of Israel in the song of Moses in Deuteronomy 32 did do this prophesying for many years, even before Israel had entered the land of Canaan.

The gathering for the Gog battle was predicted to take place "at the end of years" (which could not be true of Esther's time). In Ezekiel 38:7-8 in the LXX, it reads about Gog, "Be thou prepared, prepare thyself, thou, and all thy multitude that is assembled with thee, and thou shalt be to me for a guard. He shall be prepared after many days, and he shall come at the end of years, and shall come to a land that is brought back from the sword, when the people are gathered from many nations against the land of Israel, which was entirely desolate..." There was no "end of years" for Israel in Esther's time, but there was an "end of years" for Israel as a people after the 3-1/2 years of fighting in Jerusalem from AD 66-70.

Ok, I don’t want to get too far off the topic of the thread, you bring up some very valid points. There are also quite a few things that line up with the book of Esther, so much so that I personally think there has to be some kind of connection (type/antitype or foreshadowing) between the events of Mordecai and Haman and the Revelation 20 Gog/Magog event.

As always, I need to study more and see how the points you’ve brought up fit with everything.

 

[3 Resurrections]

As always, I need to study more and see how the points you’ve brought up fit with everything.

I appreciate that - it's all anybody can ask of another person. Just remember, in Esther's time, God was arranging for His defense of the people of Israel, but in Gog's battle, God was coming against His land and the people of Israel at their "latter end".

 

[grafted branch]

I appreciate that - it's all anybody can ask of another person. Just remember, in Esther's time, God was arranging for His defense of the people of Israel, but in Gog's battle, God was coming against His land and the people of Israel at their "latter end".

And we also need to keep in mind that where our Lord was crucified became as Sodom and Egypt at some point in time.

 

[Zao is life]

That's reasonable.

I disagree. The words in Rev.20:4-6 are zao, and anastasis. Nowhere in the New Testament is either zao (alive/living) or zoe (life) used in reference to those who are "spiritually alive yet no longer in the body".

Likewise nowhere in the New Testament is anastasis used in reference to a 'spiritual" resurrection. It;s always referring to the resurrection of the body from the dead.

Besides this, those in Rev.20:4 are identified by what they refused to do and the harm it caused them physically, not by how they were born of the Spirit through faith.

If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath.

And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. -– Revelation 14:9-11

And all dwelling on the earth will worship it, those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world. -– Revelation 13:8

Here is the endurance of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. -- Revelation 14:12

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive [záō] into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. -– Revelation 19:20

Záō used in reference to humans always = “alive in the body” in the New Testament (without exception).

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God,

and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they were alive in their bodies [záō] and reigned with Christ a thousand years. -– Revelation 20:4.

But the rest [loipoí] of the dead did not live again [anazáō] until the thousand years were finished.

This is the first resurrection of the body [anástasis]. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. – Revelation 20:5

Anazáō = “alive in the body again”. (Zao = "alive in the body")

Anástasis = “the resurrection of the body” in the New Testament (without exception).

And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire. -- Revelation 20:15
​

What @PinSeeker always says about this, is wishful thinking - as much wishful thinking as believing in a pre-tribulation rapture is wishful thinking. Revelation 20:4 identifies the subject of that verse by what they refused to do,

and by the word zao (alive in the body),

and by the word beheaded, stating why they were beheaded (they were not beheaded by a new birth),

and the word anastasis (resurrection of the body) in Rev.20:5-6 tells us what it's talking about.

PinSeeker and all who agree with him seek to explain these facts away with passages like Colossians 3:1 which are not talking about anyone refusing to worship the beast or its image.

It's the same as with Rev.20:1-3. Not only do we have a number of New Testament passages talking about Satan's ongoing deceptive activities in the world and in the churches, but the very fact that doctrines such as amillennialism, preterism and partial preterism are among many false doctrines that exist and are taught in the churches, proves the notion of the binding of Satan at Calvary so that he is unable to deceive, to be false - but again, they explain it away also, by ignoring or changing the plain and obvious meaning of the words "deceive the nations" and turning the words into something else.

I don't know how you can see obvious interpretation of scripture in the light of a false doctrine so as to make scripture conform to the false doctrine as being a reasonable argument.

 

[PinSeeker]

I disagree. The words in Rev.20:4-6 are zao, and anastasis. Nowhere in the New Testament is either zao (alive/living) or zoe (life) used in reference to those who are "spiritually alive yet no longer in the body". Likewise nowhere in the New Testament is anastasis used in reference to a 'spiritual" resurrection. It;s always referring to the resurrection of the body from the dead.​

Fair enough that you disagree, Zao; no issue with that from me, of course. But once a person is made alive in spirit by the Holy Spirit (if he or she is) and is then of God, no longer dead in his or her sin and a slave to unrighteousness but alive to God and thus a slave to righteousness, then that is then forever ~ both in this life and in the life to come ~ the case. I'll not argue against what you're saying about 'anastasis,' but what is really in view here is Paul's use of the phrase "raised us up" in Ephesians 2:6, translated from the Greek 'synegeirō.' And surely you know ~ focused as you are on the Greek of the New Testament ~ that the prefix 'syn' means 'together,' which indicates togetherness, as in our English word 'synergy,' for instance, and that leaves the root word 'egeirō,' ~ translated to English as 'raise' or 'raised." And I'll point out the following, namely that in the New Testament Greek, 'egeirō' is used in both physical and spiritual contexts, so a physical raising as well as a spiritual raising:

• In the gospels, Jesus being raised ~ specifically 'egeirō' ~ is used several times to refer to Jesus's coming (or past, in the case some of the cross-references here) physical raising, His physical resurrection (Matthew 16:21, 17:9, 17:23, 20:9, 26:32; Mark 14:28; Luke 9:22; John 2:22, 21:14; Acts 2:24, 2:32). There are others, but I think this to be sufficient...
• And 'egeirō' ~ again, "raised" ~ is also used in reference to this spiritual raising of all new believers from death in sin to life in Christ, most notably by Peter in Ephesians 2:6 and Colossians 2:12 and 3:1. Colossians 2:12 is particularly interesting because, in the same verse, 'egeirō' is actually used twice, once in reference to Jesus's physical resurrection (He was "raised") and the other in reference to our spiritual resurrection (we have been "raised").

So, your parsing of the Greek... Well, sorry, that's not your intention, I know, but you're drawing a distinction where there is none. I certainly have no problem with you disagreeing with me, but for you to say it's unreasonable is... well, unreasonable.

We believers have eternal life ~ zaō ~ now... we are not merely destined to have it at some point in the future... whereas unbelievers do not, though they certainly, of course, breathe and talk and walk among us...

Záō used in reference to humans always = “alive in the body” in the New Testament (without exception).​

Not true; I'll just point out one verse here, a quote from Jesus:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live (`zaō')." (John 5:25)​

PinSeeker and all who agree with him seek to explain these facts away with passages like Colossians 3:1 which are not talking about anyone refusing to worship the beast or its image.

I point out Colossians 3:1 above (see above). So, "explain away"...? Obviously not...

It's the same as with Rev.20:1-3. Not only do we have a number of New Testament passages talking about Satan's ongoing deceptive activities in the world and in the churches, but the very fact that doctrines such as amillennialism, preterism and partial preterism are among many false doctrines that exist and are taught in the churches, proves the notion of the binding of Satan at Calvary so that he is unable to deceive, to be false - but again, they explain it away also, by ignoring or changing the plain and obvious meaning of the words "deceive the nations" and turning the words into something else.

With all due respect, Zao is life, no one ~ no one here, anyway, and certainly not intentionally ~ "ignores or "changes the meaning" or "turns into something else" the words "deceive the nations." Such an assertion is unreasonable... demagoguery, really. But yes, there is ~ obviously ~ disagreement among well-meaning Christians regarding just what that means and entails.

I don't know how you can see obvious interpretation of scripture in the light of a false doctrine so as to make scripture conform to the false doctrine as being a reasonable argument.

As I said... Well, see above.

Grace and peace to you, ZIL.

 

[Zao is life]

what is really in view here is Paul's use of the phrase "raised us up" in Ephesians 2:6, translated from the Greek 'synegeirō.' And surely you know ~ focused as you are on the Greek of the New Testament ~ that the prefix 'syn' means 'together,' which indicates togetherness, as in our English word 'synergy,' for instance, and that leaves the root word 'egeirō,' ~ translated to English as 'raise' or 'raised." And I'll point out the following, namely that in the New Testament Greek, 'egeirō' is used in both physical and spiritual contexts,

Your claim that "in the New Testament Greek, 'egeirō' is used in both physical and spiritual contexts" is 100% false.

You are once again showing how Amillennialism causes you to consistently eisegetically insert a meaning into a word that is not there. Let's look at the difference in scripture between quickening and raising so that (or in the hopes that) you will be able to see the obvious flaws in your assertions:

zōopoiéō in scripture is always used in reference to God’s Spirit quickening, i.e making alive, giving or imparting (eternal) life. Also used in reference to the quickening of the mortal body:

"If Christ's Spirit is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness. Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō: make your mortal bodies alive] through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

syzōopoiéō is used in reference to being quickened, i.e made alive again together with Christ and by His Spirit.

zōopoiéō (quickening of the Spirit) is used in John 5:21; John 6:63; Romans 4:17; Romans 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15 verses 22, 36 & 45; II Corinthians 3:6; Galatians 3:21; I Timothy 6:13; I Peter 3:18.

syzōopoiéō is used in Ephesians 2:4-6, where it's referring to the quickening of the Spirit; and in the same place synegeírō is referring to the resurrection of the body:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead (the body being dead) in sins,

(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has raised us up together (synegeírō - the word is referring to the resurrection of the body, not of the human spirit), and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

Paul is telling us that we are quickened with Him by His Spirit because of His quickening by the same Spirit (Christ is the Son of man and the last Adam), and so we are also bodily raised with Him. Colossians 2:12 and 3:1 are saying exactly the same thing.

Paul is telling us that positionally, we are already bodily raised with Christ who is the last Adam, the Son of man, through His bodily resurrection from the dead. This is why we are sure that we will be raised from the dead bodily, also. This is why he says we are seated with Him ("made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus").

We are seated with Him in heavenly places because we have been bodily raised with Him (synegeírō), because we have been quickened by the Spirit of God with Him (syzōopoiéō) because we have been born of His Spirit.

egeírō and synegeírō are referring to the resurrection of the body, and there is not one place in the entire New Testament where the words are NOT referring to the resurrection of the body, despite the fact that you falsely claimed in your post there are references in scripture where it is NOT referring to the resurrection of the body.

Let's look at Amillennialism's other non-Christian and unbiblical claim that is an integral part of Amillennialist doctrine, which is the part of your re-definition of scripture which I have crossed out below:

zōopoiéō: (Amillennialist false definition): God quickens the dead body (imparts everlasting life) through "the resurrection of the human spirit".

Biblical definition:

God quickens the dead body (imparts everlasting life) by the Spirit of God and the resurrection power of Jesus Christ, through and as a result of a new birth in an individual, i.e being born of the Spirit of God:

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." -- John 3:6

"Born of the flesh" is referring to physical birth. We received life from our parents. We never had life before then. When we were born into the world, we were not "raised from death".

Likewise, those who have been born of the Spirit of God, received eternal life from God when they were born of His Spirit. We never had eternal life before then.

When those who have been born of the Spirit of God were born of God, their human spirit was not "raised" from "a spiritual death". . Though we were alive in our bodies (zao) we did not have (eternal) life (zoe) in us. God breathed eternal life into us and we were born of God.

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. And everyone who loves Him who begets also loves him who has been born of Him." -- 1 John 5:1

"If Christ's Spirit is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness. Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō: make your mortal bodies alive] through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

CHRIST was raised from (bodily) death, a death which was undone when HE was quickened by the Spirit of God, and so through HIS death for our sins, and through HIS quickening when HE was quickened by the Spirit, and through HIS bodily resurrection, and through HIS Spirit coming to dwell in us when we are born of God, we are quickened with HIM and bodily raised with HIM:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead (the body being dead) in sins,

(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has raised us up together (synegeírō - the word is referring to the resurrection of the body, not of the human spirit), and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

The readers of this thread who are not decided either way for anything will have taken note of the fact that in your post you once again said nothing about the fact that Rev.20:4 identifies those who were beheaded by what they refused to do, not by their state of being.

You also said nothing about the fact that John saw them as alive in their bodies (záō), nor does your Amillennialist belief system permit you to consider the fact that in the long list of verses where it's found, the word záō (alive | living) is always referring either to the living God, or to humans who are alive in the body. The word is never used in reference to anyone who has died | fallen asleep | is not alive and living in the body.

Amillennialism, (and Preterism and Partial-Preterism which are based on an Amillennialism foundation), are schools of thought which have produced doctrines which have given birth to mountains of theological falsehoods.

1. Why those who John saw alive in their bodies (zao) in Rev.20:4 had been beheaded, and

2. the fact that John saw them alive in their bodies (zao), and

3. the fact that the word anastasis in verses 5-6 is talking about the resurrection of the body.

Everything you said in your post only proved (yet again) that in many respects the mountain of theology built on the false doctrine of Amillennialism does not permit you or any Amillennialist to believe what scripture says (for example Amillennialism forbids belief of what Rev.20:1-6 is telling us), and Amillennialists always make it totally obvious by their arguments (as you have once again done in your post) that Amillennialism forces you to employ faulty interpretations of other parts of scripture also (more false doctrines) such as the word synegeírō in Ephesians 2:6 for example, in order to change the plain and obvious biblical meaning of scriptures such as Revelation 20:4-6.

None of which means that you are not saved. Because it's Christ's blood - HIS death and HIS resurrection that saved us, and that saves us - through our faith in Him, in the case of ALL those who have faith in Him. And no one will have faith in Him and believe the gospel of salvation through Christ unless that one has been born of God.

However, you are confused by mountains of theology built upon false doctrines that are based on schools of thought that were born in the fallible minds of people who seem to believe scripture contradicts scripture (like you have made it obvious you do by your arguments in your post).​

 

[Davidpt]

I disagree. The words in Rev.20:4-6 are zao, and anastasis. Nowhere in the New Testament is either zao (alive/living) or zoe (life) used in reference to those who are "spiritually alive yet no longer in the body".


​

You and I still on the same page here, I think. Actually, what I found reasonable was this portion---"what Paul describes in Ephesians 2:4-6 already happened for (was already applied to) them at some point during their lives here on earth. They, having been dead in their sin, were born again of the Spirit and raised in Christ also, each at his/her appointed time, by God's grace through faith, just as we are (have been) today". Even Premils shouldn't have a dispute with that.

As to this part-- "And, if Jesus doesn't come back first, then, when we die, we will join them in that state, in the presence of Christ, awaiting the time of His return, having come to life and reigning with Him over the course of God's millennium".---this part I find reasonable---"And, if Jesus doesn't come back first, then, when we die, we will join them in that state, in the presence of Christ, awaiting the time of His return". Even Premils shouldn't have a dispute with that unless they believe in soul sleep or something.

As to this part though, since I am Premil, I do not find this reasonable---having come to life and reigning with Him over the course of God's millennium


My bad for not being more specific about what I was finding reasonable. My initial point was that Ephesians 2:4-6 can't be applied to someone when they are in a disembodied state. And that Revelation 20:4 involves saints initially in a disembodied state until they bodily live again, thus the first resurrection. Therefore, Ephesians 2:4-6 has zero to do with living and reigning a thousand years with Christ. The OP is then incorrect that Ephesians 2:4-6 proves the millennium is now, the fact numerous Amils insist Revelation 20:4 is involving a disembodied state in heaven, and that Ephesians 2:4-6 can't fit that.