Paul taught that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality

[Zao is life]

I wasn't misunderstood by Timtofly or Davidpt with my post #83. Only by yourself, @PinSeeker.

We will obviously not come to agreement on what it means to be quickened with (syzōopoiéō) Christ and so raised with (synegeírō) Christ (two different words used for two different things throughout the New Testament). So it's time to stop, as you say.

As I said, which you misunderstood, no one can be guilty of deliberately holding onto falsehood (whether theology or any other) if they truly believe the falsehood (as you do). If they know it's not true and deliberately hold onto it, that would make the person guilty of the same sin as the Pharisees.

But for whatever reason (only God knows the reason) you continue to adhere to the humaneology that masquerades as theology of a 'spiritual' resurrection of the human spirit (from the dead) instead of being born of the Spirit (not resurrected from the dead),

and you quote the passages which you falsely assert refer to this 'spiritual' resurrection (from the dead) of the human spirit in support of the humaneology masquerading as theology of a "symbolic millennium", whenever it's pointed out that those whom John saw as alive in their bodies (zao) though having been beheaded for refusal to worship the beast, he goes on say have part in the first resurrection of the body (anastasis).

So you link one false doctrine to another false doctrine in order for the latter to support the former. And you will have it no other way.

But only God knows whether or not you truly believe the humaneology masquearding as theology that you express in your posts with regard to this. This is why I say that believing false doctrine is not necessarily sinful. You may be guilty, you may not be. I do not know. God knows.

And as any honest reader can see I never said or implied it was necessarily sinful. Believing false doctrine out of ignorance is not sinful. Deliberately holding onto falsehood (whether theology or any other) even when it's been proved from the Bible that something is not true, is another issue.

There's a whole long list of what is sinful,
​

for example applying an argument like yours above - which implies that because I said, "it's like sin started off with one man and affected millions over time" - that I was implying that believing false theology is necessarily sinful

- and then using that sort of slur as a straw-man argument - because what you are doing is pretending to "misunderstand" what a person says, and then imply or claim that the person said something they did not.

It's that sort of thinking that's sinful - and it's noteworthy that you do the same with scripture. You continue to falsely claim that scripture is saying something that it is not saying. Such as your repeated false assertion that Paul was speaking about a "spiritual" resurrection from the dead, in the examples you give, when he was not.

It really does not matter how many times you repeat this Amillennialist false assertion: Paul is not "explicitly" applying the above to the resurrection of the human spirit" (though you don't accept it). He is not applying it to "the resurrection of the human spirit" at all.

So I'll repeat this again, though you are hard of hearing, because you keep repeating the same false assertion, even though you have provided zero scriptures in support of it. (because Eph.2:4-6 and the scriptures you have quoted do not support what you are asserting - which is what you keep doing in defense of Amillennialism, rather than in defense of scripture):

Jesus prayed to God the Father concerning those who believe in Him:

"I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me." -- John 17:23.

To His disciples He said,

"Ye shall know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you." -- John 14:20

Paul, the apostle of Jesus, taught us the following:-

"If Christ's Spirit is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive [zōopoiéō] through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

zōopoiéō: God’s Spirit quickening, i.e making alive, giving or imparting (eternal) life.

The one who raised Christ from the dead will quicken your mortal bodies if His Spirit dwells in you.

Paul does not contradict himself - he repeats himself: He says exactly the same thing again in his letter to the Ephesians:

"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead (the body being dead) in sins,

(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has raised us up together (synegeírō)

and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

The word synegeírō (raised with Christ) is referring to the resurrection of the body, not of the human spirit.

anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō and synegeírō:: A standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death: In each and every verse or passage in the New Testament where the above words are used, they are talking about, and referring to, the resurrection of the body (the body that was dead or the body that had died, which is the seed of the spiritual, but tangible, body that we have the assurance of, will be raised).

synegeírō: Refers to being raised up together with Christ's bodily resurrection.

zōopoiéō: God’s Spirit quickening, i.e making alive, giving or imparting (eternal) life.

syzōopoiéō: Used in reference to being quickened, i.e made alive again together with Christ.

Paul does not contradict himself - he repeats himself: He says exactly the same thing again in Colossians 2:12-13; Colossians 3:1;

and in Romans 6:5:​

"For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection (anastasis)"

Goodness gracious. Christ's Spirit was not quickened by the Spirit of Christ. His body was - and He is the last Adam, the Son of man.
​

Being born of God applies to the human spirit. Quickening applies only to the resurrection of the body. Our spirit is not "quickened" by the spirit of Christ but our body will be, and this happens because we have been born of His Spirit and bodily quickened with Him - but we have not actually died in our own bodies (yet), any more than we are actually sitting in our own bodies in heaven with Him.

Goodness gracious His Spirit is in us, because we have been born of His Spirit, therefore we have been quickened with Him, and His quickening applies to His body, not His Spirit, and we have been quickened with Him so as to be bodily resurrected with Him and this is why we are seated with Him in heavenly places. We don't have to be dead or no longer alive in the body for this to be the case.​

So I will leave it at this below, and return the blessing. Grace and peace to you to, from your and my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, from God the Father in the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Okay, it is enough. Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

The timing of it is already crystal clear, it is meaning at the beginning of when He initially bodily returns.

Well, yeah... immediately after His return. Sure.

Who this judgment is involving in particular, that's where others can't seem to get on the same page with me about.

If you don't understand this to be all people, if you disagree that in Matthew 25:31-46, believers from all time are on His right and unbelievers from all time are on His left, if you disagree that this is Jesus's graphic depiction of the final Judgment, and if you disagree that these events are directly following the time when, as Jesus says in John 5:28-29, that "all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment," then yes, we are not on the same page. But to be honest with you, I'm still not sure of exactly where you stand on that.

To the post you cited:

Goats and sheep are indistinguishable from a distance in the same way that wheat and tares are indistinguishable. Both sheep and goats are also "kosher" animals, which makes them similar. Thus this judgment is not between the righteous (believers) and wicked (unbelievers), but between the righteous (believers) and the apparent-righteous (unbelievers). In other words, the scope of this judgment is for the declared followers of the shepherd, who are ostensibly "kosher" creatures.

Yes, I'm okay with this...

Ezekiel 20:33-44 appears to be the parallel account in the Hebrew Bible to this passage in Matthew...

I'm okay with this, too, except I would say there was an immediate fulfillment of that for the Israelites of old... But yes, there is an ultimate fulfillment, and that is parallel... and still yet to come, of course, at Christ's return, as you and I both have said.

...the sheep are the righteous (believers) and the goats are the unrighteous (unbelievers) notwithstanding that both groups were the ostensible and therefore self-declared followers of the Lord.

Sure. And actually, the latter group, the goats, are self-deceived... "false sons," as they are called by the hymnist in "The Church's One Foundation," and and trying, in Matthew 25:44 ~ "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?" ~ to justify themselves before the Lord, which they cannot do; it is God Who justifies, as we can clearly deduce from what Paul says in Romans 8:30, that "those whom (God) predestined (God) also called, and those whom (God) called (God) also justified, and those whom (God) justified (God) also glorified."

The idea here is that those "believers" who love other "believers" through both their words and deeds are indeed the sheep (cf. Ja 2:15-17 and 1 Jn 3:18), whereas the remainder (the goats) are those whose spiritual gifts (which were prophesying, healing, miracles) were of no use or benefit to the sheep (hunger, thirst, nakedness, sickness, and their loneliness in incarceration) and therefore the goats were never "known" by the Lord.

Hmm, well, I basically agree with this, too, except I would disagree with the statement that unbelievers/goats have or were ever even given spiritual gifts, gifts of the Spirit. That's not to say that they are not capable of doing good things, and even things that might seem to be of the Spirit from the outside looking in. Unbelievers... goats, as it were... do not have the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is not working in them so that they might then will and work for God's good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). Again, unbelievers can ~ and do ~ do a lot of great things, but the Spirit is not in them and bearing His fruit (Galatians 5:22-23) through them, else they would have been born again of the Spirit.

...the fact I already understood this years ago, thus no outside influence at the time, and that this person above understands it in the same manner, what then explains the reason why, especially if there are others, such as yourself, that don't agree with the way we are interpreting this?

I'm not sure what kind of answer you're expecting in response to this question. I guess I would say in response that on a human, interpersonal level, that's just it... there is disagreement. If any plurality of persons agree on anything, that doesn't necessarily indicate its accuracy/correctness... or lack thereof.

One thing I have figured out over the years is this. Whatever one thinks something might mean, simply insert that into the text and see whether it makes sense of the text or nonsense of it.

Hmm, well, that sounds okay on the surface, but if we are then leaning on our own understanding... God tells us not to do that... (Proverbs 3:5)

In my mind context along with good common sense helps determine what something means.

Well, generally I would agree, but we're talking about God's Word, here, David. God "determines" what He means. And if one's take on context and/or especially one's "good common sense" in assessing one passage is in conflict with the true context of the passage or any other passage of the Bible ~ because God does not contradict Himself ~ then... there is a problem with a.) his or her conclusion regarding the passage in question, or b.) his or her understanding of any of those other passages, or c.) both.

And if one sticks to both they are more likely to be right more often than wrong.

Maybe, and maybe not.

Context nor good common sense support that the goats are meaning all of the lost since the beginning of time...

Disagree.

...nor does it support that this judgment is involving anyone other than professed servants of Christ.

When we are all standing before God/Christ in the final Judgment, I think many will say they served Christ... which is what we see there in Matthew 25... and will be either mistaken or trying (unsuccessfully) to justify themselves. It is very interesting to see that even the first group, the ones on Jesus's right, who actually did serve Christ, seem unaware of it... while those in the second group, the ones on Jesus's left, who never really served Christ, protest that they did, again, possibly having fooled themselves into actually saying such but in any case trying to justify themselves. But this is what we see in Matthew 25:44 ~ "Hey, wait just a minute... When did we not serve you?" Nevertheless, Jesus will tell them, "you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me."

IOW, yet another passage that proves Not Once Saved Always Saved, that this is Biblical.

Ahhhhh, thaaaaaat's really what you're getting at.... God's purposes cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2). If any of us is given to Christ by the Father, He will lose not one. As Jesus Himself says in John 6:37-39, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given me, but raise it up on the last day." I mean, this doesn't mean much, really, but I think "once saved always saved," while okay, and true, is just sort of a clumsy way to put it. If we are Christ's, we are His, and we will persevere in Christ to the end. "He who began a good work in us will..." ~ will, not "might" ~ "...bring it to completion at the day of Christ" (Philippians 1:6). And Peter says it this way:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)​

And back to Paul, regarding those who are in Christ:

"...we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us... neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:37-39)​

How any believer can not believe in his or her eternal security in Christ is... well, astounding. And heartbreaking, really.

Grace and peace to you, David.

 

[PinSeeker]

I wasn't misunderstood by Timtofly or Davidpt with my post #83. Only by yourself, @PinSeeker.

Hmmm, confronted with your own words, and you deny them. Interesting.

We will obviously not come to agreement on what it means to be quickened with (syzōopoiéō) Christ and so raised with (synegeírō) Christ (two different words used for two different things throughout the New Testament).

But we could, if only...

So it's time to stop, as you say.

But not before getting in some really good parting shots, eh?

As I said, which you misunderstood, no one can be guilty of deliberately holding onto falsehood (whether theology or any other) if they truly believe the falsehood (as you do).

The core issue is what you presume to be falsehood.

...you continue to adhere to the humaneology that masquerades as theology of a 'spiritual' resurrection of the human spirit (from the dead) instead of being born of the Spirit (not resurrected from the dead),

Our being born again of the Spirit and the resulting resurrection ~ both of which occur at some point during our life here on earth ~ is what it is.

...and you quote the passages which you falsely assert...

Falsely in your opinion. At least now you are acknowledging my citation of Scripture, as before you did not...

So you link one false doctrine to another false doctrine...

Again, false in your opinion; that's unfortunate, but I'm okay with that...

...you will have it no other way.

Right, but hey, right back atcha.

But only God knows whether or not you truly believe the humaneology masquearding as theology that you express in your posts with regard to this.

Ah, more insults. Alas... We disagree. We should both be okay with that...

This is why I say that believing false doctrine is not necessarily sinful.

I think I've said this before, too, several times...

You may be guilty, you may not be. I do not know.

...he says, after accusing me of such guilt over and over and over again in many ways, and therefore that he does know... LOL!

God knows.

God is God, yes.

So I will leave it at this below, and return the blessing...

Right, after having tried to, er, beat me to a pulp, so to speak... LOL! Ah, the full armor of God. It certainly does what God says it will do...

Grace and peace to you to, from your and my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, from God the Father in the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Thank you. Grace and peace to you also. Especially grace...

 

[Davidpt]

Well, yeah... immediately after His return. Sure.


If you don't understand this to be all people, if you disagree that in Matthew 25:31-46, believers from all time are on His right and unbelievers from all time are on His left, if you disagree that this is Jesus's graphic depiction of the final Judgment, and if you disagree that these events are directly following the time when, as Jesus says in John 5:28-29, that "all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment," then yes, we are not on the same page. But to be honest with you, I'm still not sure of exactly where you stand on that.

To the post you cited:



Yes, I'm okay with this...


I'm okay with this, too, except I would say there was an immediate fulfillment of that for the Israelites of old... But yes, there is an ultimate fulfillment, and that is parallel... and still yet to come, of course, at Christ's return, as you and I both have said.


Sure. And actually, the latter group, the goats, are self-deceived... "false sons," as they are called by the hymnist in "The Church's One Foundation," and and trying, in Matthew 25:44 ~ "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?" ~ to justify themselves before the Lord, which they cannot do; it is God Who justifies, as we can clearly deduce from what Paul says in Romans 8:30, that "those whom (God) predestined (God) also called, and those whom (God) called (God) also justified, and those whom (God) justified (God) also glorified."


Hmm, well, I basically agree with this, too, except I would disagree with the statement that unbelievers/goats have or were ever even given spiritual gifts, gifts of the Spirit. That's not to say that they are not capable of doing good things, and even things that might seem to be of the Spirit from the outside looking in. Unbelievers... goats, as it were... do not have the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is not working in them so that they might then will and work for God's good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). Again, unbelievers can ~ and do ~ do a lot of great things, but the Spirit is not in them and bearing His fruit (Galatians 5:22-23) through them, else they would have been born again of the Spirit.


I'm not sure what kind of answer you're expecting in response to this question. I guess I would say in response that on a human, interpersonal level, that's just it... there is disagreement. If any plurality of persons agree on anything, that doesn't necessarily indicate its accuracy/correctness... or lack thereof.


Hmm, well, that sounds okay on the surface, but if we are then leaning on our own understanding... God tells us not to do that... (Proverbs 3:5)


Well, generally I would agree, but we're talking about God's Word, here, David. God "determines" what He means. And if one's take on context and/or especially one's "good common sense" in assessing one passage is in conflict with the true context of the passage or any other passage of the Bible ~ because God does not contradict Himself ~ then... there is a problem with a.) his or her conclusion regarding the passage in question, or b.) his or her understanding of any of those other passages, or c.) both.


Maybe, and maybe not.


Disagree.


When we are all standing before God/Christ in the final Judgment, I think many will say they served Christ... which is what we see there in Matthew 25... and will be either mistaken or trying (unsuccessfully) to justify themselves. It is very interesting to see that even the first group, the ones on Jesus's right, who actually did serve Christ, seem unaware of it... while those in the second group, the ones on Jesus's left, who never really served Christ, protest that they did, again, possibly having fooled themselves into actually saying such but in any case trying to justify themselves. But this is what we see in Matthew 25:44 ~ "Hey, wait just a minute... When did we not serve you?" Nevertheless, Jesus will tell them, "you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me."


Ahhhhh, thaaaaaat's really what you're getting at.... God's purposes cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2). If any of us is given to Christ by the Father, He will lose not one. As Jesus Himself says in John 6:37-39, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given me, but raise it up on the last day." I mean, this doesn't mean much, really, but I think "once saved always saved," while okay, and true, is just sort of a clumsy way to put it. If we are Christ's, we are His, and we will persevere in Christ to the end. "He who began a good work in us will..." ~ will, not "might" ~ "...bring it to completion at the day of Christ" (Philippians 1:6). And Peter says it this way:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)​

And back to Paul, regarding those who are in Christ:

"...we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us... neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:37-39)​

How any believer can not believe in his or her eternal security in Christ is... well, astounding. And heartbreaking, really.

Grace and peace to you, David.

Unlike me you are usually very thorough at addressing what someone has posted. I admire and respect that about you. Wish I could do the same. But it is what it is, in my case. And since you are usually very thorough, it then makes me wonder why you didn't bother addressing the following, a very relevant point that I raised, thus, you then showing how that makes sense of the text rather than nonsense? Thus, you then showing why the way I argued that is not a convincing argument?

Let's assume the goats in Matthew 25 are meaning all of the lost since the beginning of time. Obviously, Cain, for example, would be among the lost. Let's see if the text makes sense or nonsense if we insert him into the text.

Matthew 25:44 Then shall they, including Cain, also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

As if during the days that Cain dwelled upon the earth so did Christ. Christ wasn't even born yet when Cain was alive upon the earth. How then is it remotely reasonable that Cain too would be answering Jesus in this manner---Lord, when saw I thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

 

[PinSeeker]

Unlike me you are usually very thorough at addressing what someone has posted. I admire and respect that about you.

Thanks for the kind words, David. To God be the glory.

Wish I could do the same. But it is what it is, in my case.

Well, I don't really notice any "deficiency"... I think you probably could, with a little practice, maybe... Or hey, all us Christians have gifts of the Spirit. Maybe you are gifted in ways you're not even aware of at present... I would urge you to find out, because whatever of the gifts of the Spirit you have, God intends for you to use them. As Paul says, they are "apportioned to each as He wills" (1 Corinthians 12:11), and are given "for the common good" (1 Corinthians 12:7), And... this is what you were newly created for; as Paul also says ~ "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10).

And since you are usually very thorough, it then makes me wonder why you didn't bother addressing the following, a very relevant point that I raised, thus, you then showing how that makes sense of the text rather than nonsense? Thus, you then showing why the way I argued that is not a convincing argument?

Hmm, so I assume you mean this question:

"Christ wasn't even born yet when Cain was alive upon the earth. How then is it remotely reasonable that Cain too would be answering Jesus in this manner---Lord, when saw I thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?"

Right? If so, the short answer is:

God told Adam and Eve that the seed of the woman would crush the serpents head (Genesis 3:15). This is the first proclamation of the Gospel of Christ. Presumably, both Cain and Abel knew about this, because they knew, again, presumably because Adam and Eve taught them, to make offerings to God, which we see in Genesis 4 they did. They could not have known to do that unless someone told/taught them. Adam and Eve heard this directly from God, of course, so it was probably them teaching their sons at some point, and probably repetitively. I say 'probably,' because we do see that God spoke directly to Cain in Genesis 4, so it is possible that God told Cain and Abel directly to make offerings to Him, but we have no record of that. But the fact is that both Cain and Abel knew to serve God, and they knew of the Savior to come. Unlike Cain, though, Abel's sacrifice was accepted by God, because it was offered in faith:

"By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he (Abel) was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts" (Hebrews 11:4).

So, yes, Cain may very well be on Jesus's left with all the other unrepentant, the ones without God-given faith. Now, I suppose it is possible that Cain later repented and believed... possible that he received mercy from God and was saved by grace through faith like we all are... but we have no record of that, and I would lean away from that because in Hebrews 11:4 above, the contrast between Cain and Abel is still being made, even thousands of years later.

Perhaps that answer wasn't so short... Sorry. But do you see?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

Thanks for the kind words, David. To God be the glory.


Well, I don't really notice any "deficiency"... I think you probably could, with a little practice, maybe... Or hey, all us Christians have gifts of the Spirit. Maybe you are gifted in ways you're not even aware of at present... I would urge you to find out, because whatever of the gifts of the Spirit you have, God intends for you to use them. As Paul says, they are "apportioned to each as He wills" (1 Corinthians 12:11), and are given "for the common good" (1 Corinthians 12:7), And... this is what you were newly created for; as Paul also says ~ "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10).


Hmm, so I assume you mean this question:

"Christ wasn't even born yet when Cain was alive upon the earth. How then is it remotely reasonable that Cain too would be answering Jesus in this manner---Lord, when saw I thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?"

Right? If so, the short answer is:

God told Adam and Eve that the seed of the woman would crush the serpents head (Genesis 3:15). This is the first proclamation of the Gospel of Christ. Presumably, both Cain and Abel knew about this, because they knew, again, presumably because Adam and Eve taught them, to make offerings to God, which we see in Genesis 4 they did. They could not have known to do that unless someone told/taught them. Adam and Eve heard this directly from God, of course, so it was probably them teaching their sons at some point, and probably repetitively. I say 'probably,' because we do see that God spoke directly to Cain in Genesis 4, so it is possible that God told Cain and Abel directly to make offerings to Him, but we have no record of that. But the fact is that both Cain and Abel knew to serve God, and they knew of the Savior to come. Unlike Cain, though, Abel's sacrifice was accepted by God, because it was offered in faith:

"By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he (Abel) was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts" (Hebrews 11:4).

So, yes, Cain may very well be on Jesus's left with all the other unrepentant, the ones without God-given faith. Now, I suppose it is possible that Cain later repented and believed... possible that he received mercy from God and was saved by grace through faith like we all are... but we have no record of that, and I would lean away from that because in Hebrews 11:4 above, the contrast between Cain and Abel is still being made, even thousands of years later.

Perhaps that answer wasn't so short... Sorry. But do you see?

Grace and peace to you.

The point is: this sheep and goat judgment is not about Cain and Abel, nor Adam and Eve.

The point of the sheep and goat judgment is that these are humans still physically alive, who never physically died, meaning both are still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh in need of redemption. They are not even born from above of the second birth, so neither those called sheep and goats have had a spiritual resurrection, much less a physical one.

They are not even designated as sheep or goat, until after they are judged.

"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats."

In keeping with the term sea from Revelation, the sea is gathered in front of Jesus sitting as King in judgment over His sea, the nations. But what is implied is that these are not spiritual Jews (Christians) being gathered but the point, Paul made, blindness is removed from Israel. And only a remnant are redeemed, those placed on the right hand as being goats, now called sheep.

The blindness is the reason they have to ask why me? Once the blindness is removed the majority now see themselves as the goats they always were, and the sheep are redeemed physically put of Adam's dead corruptible flesh into God's permanent incorruptible physical body. They have to be changed receiving both the physical resurrection and the spiritual second birth at the same moment.

Unlike the church that was already removed and physically changed only, because they already had the second birth. This is not an awards ceremony for good works. This is not a separation of church from the lost. This is the moment blindness is removed and all of Israel see their Messiah for the first time, and unfortunately for the majority, the last time, as they are condemned to eternal destruction.

 

[marks]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Paul spoke in current and past tense in the verses below that we even though we are still alive on earth we have been seated with Christ spiritually thus we reign on thrones with Jesus now


Ephesians 2:4-6

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

The Revelation passage is speaking of those who were beheaded for refusing to receive the mark, and refusing to worship the beast.

The Ephesians passage is speaking of those who are alive on earth, being seated in the heavenlies with Christ.

These are not the same groups of people.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

The point is: this sheep and goat judgment is not about Cain and Abel, nor Adam and Eve.

Nobody said it was; I'm not even sure what would spur such a comment...

The point of the sheep and goat judgment is that these are humans still physically alive, who never physically died...

Nope.

,,,both are still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh in need of redemption.

Nope.

They are not even born from above of the second birth...

The sheep are...

....neither those called sheep and goats have had a spiritual resurrection...

The sheep have. Jesus's sheep hear His voice, and He knows them, and they follow Him (John 10:27), the direct result of the first resurrection, having been made to see, hear, sing, and leap for joy (in the words of Isaiah 35)...

They are not even designated as sheep or goat, until after they are judged.

Before the foundation of the world, actually (Ephesians 1).

"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats."

In keeping with the term sea from Revelation, the sea is gathered in front of Jesus sitting as King in judgment over His sea, the nations. But what is implied is that these are not spiritual Jews (Christians) being gathered but the point, Paul made, blindness is removed from Israel. And only a remnant are redeemed, those placed on the right hand as being goats, now called sheep.

The blindness is the reason they have to ask why me? Once the blindness is removed the majority now see themselves as the goats they always were, and the sheep are redeemed physically put of Adam's dead corruptible flesh into God's permanent incorruptible physical body. They have to be changed receiving both the physical resurrection and the spiritual second birth at the same moment.

Unlike the church that was already removed and physically changed only, because they already had the second birth. This is not an awards ceremony for good works. This is not a separation of church from the lost. This is the moment blindness is removed and all of Israel see their Messiah for the first time, and unfortunately for the majority, the last time, as they are condemned to eternal destruction.

Hmmm... Well, I don't completely disagree... The only "removal"... which is actually a sending away and departing (from the New Heaven and New Earth, as Adam and Eve were sent out of Eden in the beginning) of the many "condemned to eternal destruction... is of those not in Christ. But yes, one day our faith will be sight, for sure.

Thanks for your thoughts, Timtofly.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davidpt]

The point is: this sheep and goat judgment is not about Cain and Abel, nor Adam and Eve.

Clearly it is not, therefore, I agree. Nor is it about atheists, witches, satanists, unbelieving Jews, so on and so on. How anyone can think the sheep and goats judgment and the great white throne judgment, that these are the same judgment, is beyond me?

Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


I for sure can picture an unbelieving Jew also answering Jesus in that manner---not. Keeping in mind, everyone the goats represent, they all answer in the same manner. Nowhere does it say that some of the goats answered Jesus in that manner but some of them didn't.


Then shall the unbelieving Jews answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister(SERVE) unto thee?

Then shall the atheists answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister(SERVE) unto thee?

Then shall the witches answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister(SERVE) unto thee?

Then shall the satanists answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister(SERVE) unto thee?

Then shall the unprofitable servants of His answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister(SERVE) unto thee?

Only one of these can be correct. Only one of these is making sense of the text. That obviously means the other ones are rendering the text nonsensical.

Edited. Maybe this makes it a bit clearer. But probably not though if one thinks rendering the text nonsensical is a good way to interpret the text properly.

 

[PinSeeker]

How anyone can think the sheep and goats judgment and the great white throne judgment, that these are the same judgment, is beyond me?

So you don’t think what John “sees” in the particular vision of Revelation 20:11-15 is a representation of the same Judgment Jesus describes in Matthew 25:31-46? If not, David, that puts you far outside orthodox (generally accepted) Christian thought on that.

I for sure can picture an unbelieving Jew also answering Jesus in that manner---not.

All unbelievers will answer in that manner, so to speak. Jesus is not quoting verbatim what they will say, per se; He is conveying the idea that they will think they are worthy of the Kingdom of God, but, relying on their own perceived merit and righteousness, will fall far, far short of the mark.

I get you, though… I guess you’re saying that because most ethnic Jews, even Jews who actually practice Judaism, do not believe Jesus is God’s Christ; they believe the Messiah has not come yet. That’s true, but there’s more to it than that. This is the “partial hardening now on Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles is brought in” that Paul mentions in Romans 11:25-26. In God’s economy, not all ethnic Jews are true Jews, Jews of God. Some, and maybe even many are, but not all. Read what Paul, who was very much an ethnic Jew through and through, said in Romans 2:28-29 ~ “no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical… a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God” ~ and then also in Romans 9:6 ~ “not all who are descended from Israel are of Israel.” So in this sense… in the sense of God’s true Jews, who, together, make up the Israel of God, which will be an innumerable multitude of people from every tongue, tribe, and people group… there are no unbelieving Jews. Back to Romans 11:26, “in this way, all Israel…” ~ the Israel of God “will be saved.”

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davidpt]

So you don’t think what John “sees” in the particular vision of Revelation 20:11-15 is a representation of the same Judgment Jesus describes in Matthew 25:31-46? If not, David, that puts you far outside orthodox (generally accepted) Christian thought on that.

And guess what you are saying here since pretty much all Premils disagree that the sheep and goats judgment and the GWTJ, that these are the same judgment? That pretty much all Premils are far outside orthodox (generally accepted) Christian thought on that.

Pretty much all Premils agree the sheep and goats judgment takes place when Christ returns. Granted, not all Premils agree about who the goats are meaning. While no Premil that I know of thinks the GWTJ initially takes place when Christ returns. Because if they did they obviously wouldn't be Premil, the fact the GWTJ is after the thousand years, and that Premils believe the thousand years begin when Christ returns, not prior to Him returning. And besides, nowhere does it say the sheep and goats judgment is after the thousand years. But it does say the GWTJ is after the thousand years, though.

 

[PinSeeker]

And guess what you are saying here since pretty much all Premils disagree that the sheep and goats judgment and the GWTJ, that these are the same judgment? That pretty much all Premils are far outside orthodox (generally accepted) Christian thought on that.

It is what it is, David...

...nowhere does it say the sheep and goats judgment is after the thousand years.

Nowhere does it say it is before the millennium, either, David. But if one understands correctly the structure of John's Revelation... That's the central issue, really.

But it does say the GWTJ is after the thousand years, though.

Sure, agreed.

Grace and peace to you, David.

 

[Timtofly]

Nobody said it was; I'm not even sure what would spur such a comment...


Nope.


Nope.


The sheep are...


The sheep have. Jesus's sheep hear His voice, and He knows them, and they follow Him (John 10:27), the direct result of the first resurrection, having been made to see, hear, sing, and leap for joy (in the words of Isaiah 35)...


Before the foundation of the world, actually (Ephesians 1).


Hmmm... Well, I don't completely disagree... The only "removal"... which is actually a sending away and departing (from the New Heaven and New Earth, as Adam and Eve were sent out of Eden in the beginning) of the many "condemned to eternal destruction... is of those not in Christ. But yes, one day our faith will be sight, for sure.

Thanks for your thoughts, Timtofly.

Grace and peace to you.

You claim the judgment in Matthew 25 is the GWT after every one is dead, so to question a point and then declare the point in the rest of your post is ironic.

No one has physically died in these verses prior to being judged. So they are not the physically dead mentioned in Revelation 20 concerning those standing outside of creation itself at the GWT event.

The sheep were elect before they were born. So did they stand in judgment prior to birth in Matthew 25? Stating that fact does not change the fact of my post. They were physically redeemed after they were judged, and obviously not turned into literal sheep. So calling them sheep 6,000 years before they were born is true, but not the point Jesus was making, that they were still physically alive and gathered by the angels from all over earth to Jerusalem, to be separated as sheep from goats, which is symbolism.

Jesus was not referring to Revelation 20.

 

[Timtofly]

Clearly it is not, therefore, I agree. Nor is it about atheists, witches, satanists, unbelieving Jews, so on and so on. How anyone can think the sheep and goats judgment and the great white throne judgment, that these are the same judgment, is beyond me?

Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


I for sure can picture an unbelieving Jew also answering Jesus in that manner---not. Keeping in mind, everyone the goats represent, they all answer in the same manner. Nowhere does it say that some of the goats answered Jesus in that manner but some of them didn't.


Then shall the unbelieving Jews answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister(SERVE) unto thee?

Then shall the atheists answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister(SERVE) unto thee?

Then shall the witches answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister(SERVE) unto thee?

Then shall the satanists answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister(SERVE) unto thee?

Then shall the unprofitable servants of His answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister(SERVE) unto thee?

Only one of these can be correct. Only one of these is making sense of the text. That obviously means the other ones are rendering the text nonsensical.

Edited. Maybe this makes it a bit clearer. But probably not though if one thinks rendering the text nonsensical is a good way to interpret the text properly.

The point about this judgment which is subsequently a harvest as all are stripped out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, some to eternal life and the majority to the LOF, is that no more of Jacob's seed is left on the earth after that point.

While you may be concentrated on the who, the when and point of removal is also as valid a point.

Amil would say that no one is left on earth, nor that this is a judgment prior to physical death.


My point is that none of Jacob's offspring is left alive to even go through the rest of the tribulation at that point.

The church was removed when Jesus appeared in the sky on His way to Jerusalem. Once settled, all of Jacob were removed. Only then does Jesus turn to the rest of humanity left on the earth. Which I have pointed out that is what the 7 Thunders are for, but that point in the tribulation is hidden from us, because John was told not to include them in the Revelation like he did the Seals and the Trumpets.

People have this private notion of a 7 year period, yet blind to the actual Word of God that has been given. I am not arguing against what you have posted, but pointing out other parts of the picture.

If people are going to rely on the ECFs, that seems to be a presupposition, that there is only one judgment instead of different judgments at different times.

 

[Behold]

we reign on thrones with Jesus now

Jesus is not reigning on any Throne, even tho "all power is given to me in Heaven and on Earth"... Jesus Said.

Currently Jesus is seated next to God "making intercession" , and the born again are right there "in Christ".. SEATED in Heavenly places".

 

[PinSeeker]

You claim the judgment in Matthew 25 is the GWT...

...of Revelation 20. Yes, because it is.

after every one is dead...

Hmm, by "dead," do you mean physically deceased? If so, then no, because not all will die physically; there will be some still alive physically at Jesus's return. Paul alludes to this in 1 Thessalonians 4. So, to your statement here, no, after everyone who has previously physically died is physically resurrected and whose disembodied spirits are reunited with their bodies, all of which occurs on Jesus's triumphant return.

...to question a point and then declare the point in the rest of your post is ironic.

Not even sure what you mean by this, frankly.

No one has physically died in these verses prior to being judged.

Yeah, disagree. See above. I would be interested to know why you think this, although I think I know...

So they are not the physically dead mentioned in Revelation 20 concerning those standing outside of creation itself at the GWT event.

The sheep were elect before they were born.

Absolutely. Before the foundation of the world, actually.

So did they stand in judgment prior to birth in Matthew 25?

No, prior neither to the first or the second birth. The Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 and the Judgment in Revelation 20:11-15 both occur after the all the first births, which everyone experiences, each at his/her own time, of course... and the second births, which are only experienced by God's elect, but also each at his/her own time.

Stating that fact...

Standing in judgment prior to birth (either the first or the second)? Do you think that's a fact? Surely not...

does not change the fact of my post.

Hmm, "the fact of your post..."

They were physically redeemed after they were judged...

Disagree. I respectfully submit to you, Timtofly, that what you say here is backwards. The ones who are judged... favorably... will at that point have been redeemed, both in spirit and in body. They are judged... favorably... because they have been redeemed.

...obviously not turned into literal sheep.

LOL!!! Right, agreed. LOL!!!

So calling them sheep 6,000 years before they were born is true...

Okay...

...but not the point Jesus was making, that they were still physically alive and gathered by the angels from all over earth to Jerusalem, to be separated as sheep from goats, which is symbolism.

Well, I agree regarding the sheep and the goats being symbolic, but the separation is certainly a real thing.

Jesus was not referring to Revelation 20.

Not directly, no, but that doesn't really mean anything. I think we'll agree that Revelation 20 did not yet exist at the time Jesus said what He said in Matthew 25; John had not yet been given the visions he received and documented in Revelation. <chuckles> It's generally agreed that John actually wrote Revelation sixty to seventy years after Jesus's crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension.

You're an interesting fellow, Timtofly.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Jesus is not reigning on any Throne, even tho "all power is given to me in Heaven and on Earth"... Jesus Said.

He is seated ~ which means far, far more than sitting in a chair... ~ at the right hand of the Father ~ which means far, far more than "sitting to the Father's right as opposed to His left...

Aside: The Father is Spirit ~ John 4:24 ~ and therefore does not have a right or left hand, or even a physical body, as men do.​

Jesus is seated, meaning His work of redemption is complete (as He said on the cross... "It is finished!") and that He has a firm hold on, possesses fully, all the power and authority and the glory of God... on the Throne of God, which is not to be understood as some really, really ornate chair... ...but rather the one position of said power, authority, and glory over God's Israel, which was for a time in a lesser sense David's but now in the greater sense is Christ Jesus's. Jesus is the Greater David.

Currently Jesus is seated next to God "making intercession"...

Absolutely.

...the born again are right there "in Christ".. SEATED in Heavenly places".

Right, but not physically, of course.

Grace and peace to you, Behold.

 

[Behold]

which is not to be understood as some really, really ornate chair... ...

Jesus sat down... because the Cross was Completed.

This is like..>"After 7 Days" God rested.

And while its true that Jesus came to the earth as a Lamb to be sacrificed..... He rose from the dead as THE King and Lord Of All. = Its true that "every knee shall bow, and tongue confess,"""" . but, its not happening YET, because He's not on the Throne yet.

It'll be soon enough....

 

[Marty fox]

Jesus is not reigning on any Throne, even tho "all power is given to me in Heaven and on Earth"... Jesus Said.

Currently Jesus is seated next to God "making intercession" , and the born again are right there "in Christ".. SEATED in Heavenly places".

Revelation 3
14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation

1 Timothy 6:15
which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

Revelation 17:14
These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

Revelation 19:16
And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

 

[Behold]

1 Timothy 6:15
which He will bring about at the proper time—

Soon enough that verse is going to manifest.