I think that they have existed as long as men have existed.StanJ said:
If all has been accomplished, Stan, why are we still here? Why is there still evil in the world?
Got a mirror, Stan?
Paul was a wolf in sheeps clothing
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So you don't believe they only existed when God created them?
Guess you don't understand what Jesus meant by ALL IS ACCOMPLISHED?
Hit home aye Barrd? ;)
I believe that God created them from the beginning. From the time Adam was created, those commandments have been in force.StanJ said:
Wasn't Cain guilty of murder? How is that possible, unless the Lord had said "Thou shalt do no murder"?
How did either of the brothers know to bring a sacrifice in the first place?
I understand that most folks think He is referring only to His sacrifice on the cross.
However, it seems to me that there is a great deal left after that to be accomplished.
And we still need the law.
I'm not sure how in the world you came up with that one.
Stan, what I was saying is that common sense ought to tell even the most simple minded among us that the Ten Commandments have not been "done away"....nor could they be.
When did God say that He would "do away" with the law that says He only is to be worshiped? Or that we might add idols to His worship? Or that we might blaspheme His name?
When did God change the Sabbath?
When did He say that we might disrespect our parents?
When did He do away with any injunctions against adultery, stealing, lying, or murder?
Come on, Stan...tell me...when did God say that it is okay for us to drool over what belongs to someone else?
You say these laws are "done away". We are "under grace", you tell me.
And you do not see the contradiction? If those laws are no longer in force, how can we break them? If we cannot break them, what is our sin? If we have no sin, why do we need grace?
I say that common sense ought to tell you that those laws must still be in force, and will be in force until the end of time...when "all is accomplished".
Well here you are ASSUMING again Barrd. You may want to carefully read Gal 3 and see what Paul says about the law.
I understand that most folks think He is referring only to His sacrifice on the cross.
However, it seems to me that there is a great deal left after that to be accomplished.
And we still need the law. The law came AFTER transgressions, just as in Cain's case.
That is my whole point Barrd....common sense has nothing to do with how God operates nor in fact, what He does. We don't live by the LAW, as you refer to it, so why ask questions about something that does NOT exist as far as the believer goes? Seems you value your own so-called COMMON SENSE, over God's written words?
How exactly do you justify that?
ALL was accomplished when Jesus rose from the dead and rose to heaven.
Matthew 7..Jesus says not all those who think they should enter the kingdom of Heaven will be allowed, and goes on to say "depart from me, I never knew you, you who practice "LAWLESSNESS"...
I asked you how Cain could be guilty of murder if God had not said "Thou shalt not kill".StanJ said:
You did not answer me.
Why is that?
Not only does this not make any sense, it has nothing to do with whether "all has been accomplished" or not.
All of God's laws make perfect sense, Stan. God does not do things just on a whim. There is a reason for everything He does, whether we understand it or not.
I am not "asking questions", I am stating facts. The Ten Commandments as listed in Genesis 20 have never been done away, can never be done away, and will never be done away. They are basic to our survival as a species. They are immutable. They are like the laws of nature.
This is not just my so-called common sense. This is the plain and simple truth.
Salvation was accomplished when Jesus resurrected from the dead and went to Heaven.
Evidently, God isn't quite through with us yet...
There seems to be a bit more to go.
Because God SAID He was. You seem to forget that as a child of Adam and Eve, he inherited the ability to KNOW good from evil. What did God tell him in Gen 4:7?
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”
I've already established that it is NOT about what you think makes sense or not.
That is NOT the issue either Barrd. Your comprehension of what God did or didn't do, what you frame as common sense, is what is being discussed. You always seem to deflect to non-issues?
Salvation was accomplished when Jesus died on the cross...Eternal Life was what was accomplished when He rose from the dead. In terms of Jesus' mission, He did accomplish all things God sent Him to do. A clue would be when He said on the cross, IT IS FINISHED!
If a person does not have God's laws written on their heart and mind who are they following? God says in Hebrews 8 and 10 "I will write my laws on their hearts and minds, and I will be their God, and they will be my people"
If as some say God's law no longer exists, what spirit are they really following?
If as some say God's law no longer exists, what spirit are they really following?
Yes, Stan...God SAID he was. Yes, murder is evil. The Ten Commandments separate good from evil...they are that basic.StanJ said:
Sin always was transgression of the law.
YOU'VE established?
Who are YOU?
I do not recognize you as an authority over me. YOU do not "establish" anything.
I don't know what you are discussing. I am discussing whether or not the Ten Commandments have been "done away".
Therefore, rather than being deflected into some ridiculous argument about my personality, I will repeat:
All of God's laws make perfect sense, Stan. God does not do things just on a whim. There is a reason for everything He does, whether we understand it or not.
I am not "asking questions", I am stating facts. The Ten Commandments as listed in Genesis 20 have never been done away, can never be done away, and will never be done away. They are basic to our survival as a species. They are immutable. They are like the laws of nature.
This is not just my so-called common sense. This is the plain and simple truth.
Fair enough. When all is done, Jesus will be back for us. At that point, there will be a judgment.
When that is over, all will truly be accomplished.
Meantime, we still need the law...
Only if you are a,
1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
He never gave it to you, Jesus never came with grace and a stick.
The 10 commandments separated God's people from the rest of mankind under the OLD covenant. They never existed before them, despite your inability to recognize that, or your obstinate refusal to see that.
and HERE we have a very significant admission of what your problem is.
According to The Barrd and NOT the Bible? WOW.
WRONG again. The judgement doesn't happen until AFTER His Millennial reign.
Nope, we have Jesus, He is ALL we need.
Obviously, we are never going to come to a meeting of the minds on this.StanJ said:
What we have is me coming to the end of my patience. Yeah, you could say it is my problem. I keep trying to get along with you, while your attitude just seems to get worse and worse.
No, Stan. According to the Bible. Do pay attention.
Oh, no, you don't. I am not being drawn into some ridiculous eschatology debate. God will get here when He gets here....and He will be right on time.
You mean the Jesus Who said:
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
That Jesus? I know Him...
Never said I was, have you not put on the righteouness of Christ it is not ours it is His, that is why we can stand before God, our own rightousness is as filthy rags, and those keeping the law should know that, for it is by their own righteousness they are trying to enter in, but cannot, for the law is death to those who fall under it, our life is in Christ alone. It is all Him, it has to be, when we come into it, it all falls to pieces.
You got it backwards....we are saved by God's grace, and because of it we want to please Him because of Jesus sacrifice for us on the cross...to please Him and show we love Him we keep the Commandments..(If you love me keep my Commandments John 14.15)To enter into life Keep the commandments..Matthew 19.17......
Those of you who say nope not keep His commandments, you better check and see who you are following, because it is not the God of the Bible.
Those of you who say nope not keep His commandments, you better check and see who you are following, because it is not the God of the Bible.
How do we get it through to these people that obeying God's law has nothing at all to do with our salvation?heretoeternity said:
We do not follow Jesus in order to be saved. We follow Him because He has saved us. We love Him. The desire of our heart is to please Him. We long to be more like Him. Keeping His commands is not some terrible hardship...because of His love for us, it becomes natural. We are drawn to His light, and we long for His righteousness above all things.
As you say, if the Spirit of God is within you, you will love His law, because it is holy, and just, and right. If you do not love His law, what spirit is within you?
Yes, this is a very good point.
Not my intent. I would be VERY happy if you just followed internal evidence IN scripture.
Yep...same thing. How exactly you justify sniping or deriding as getting along?
The SHOW it and exegete it Barrd.
The DON'T make ridiculous statements that go against proper eschatology. You seem to think I will just ignore everything you say?
No, I mean the Jesus that fulfilled the law. He, who provides OUR righteousness when we accept Him as our saviour.
as Ellicott states in his commentary on Matt 5:18;
Till all be fulfilled.—Literally, Till all things have come to pass. The words in the English version suggest an identity with the “fulfil” of Matthew 5:17, which is not found in the Greek. The same formula is used in the Greek of Matthew 24:34. The “all things” in both cases are the great facts of our Lord’s life, death, resurrection, and the establishment of the kingdom of God. So taken, we find that the words do not assert, as at first they seem to do, the perpetual obligation even of the details of the Law, but the limit up to which the obligation was to last; and they are therefore not inconsistent with the words which speak of the system of the Law as a whole as “decaying and waxing old, and ready to vanish away” (Hebrews 8:13). The two “untils” have each of them their significance. Each “jot” or “tittle “must first complete its work; then, and not till then, will it pass away.
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