PAUL WROTE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE TEACHERS

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Spiritual Israelite

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You missed the point then about butchering my post. I ask questions to show how one thing cannot be another thing.
No, I didn't miss it. You often say things that misrepresent what I've said and you were complaining about another person doing that to you in response to things that you said to him.

You have obviously never addressed any points I have made, but totally dismissed them instead of proving them wrong from Scripture.
I address them when I can actually understand them, but most of what you say is unintelligible.

For starters you claim Jesus had a resurrection to immortality. That is not found in Scripture, and you butcher the Scripture to make a point that does not exist. Then you use that point to claim Lazarus was never raised incorruptible, because of a time difference between his resurrection and the Cross.
In what other sense was Jesus's resurrection the first except that it was the first resurrection unto bodily immortality?

Scripture is very clear that His resurrection was the first resurrection of some kind. So, in what sense was it the first resurrection in your opinion?

Acts 26:22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Not to mention your continued insistence that a physical resurrection is the same exact thing as the second birth into God's family.
I insist no such thing. This is another example of you misrepresenting my beliefs. You do it often. Why? Because you know I don't actually believe those things, but you like to just play games? Or is it because you have poor reading comprehension skills?

So all those already dead will not experience the second birth until they are physically resurrected, the first resurrection.


You will then complain that I butcher your point, because you say they receive the first resurrection, at the second birth, because it is not physical.

If the first resurrection is not physical, then why is the first birth and first death physical? Is the physical resurrection now the "second" resurrection?
The first resurrection was physical. It was Christ's physical, bodily resurrection. But, scripture talks about believers spiritually having part in His resurrection. Such as in this passage:

Colossians 2:11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh[b] was put off when you were circumcised by[c] Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Do you understand that when we become spiritually saved we go from being dead in our sins to being made spiritually alive with Christ by being spiritually "raised with him"?

Calling the second birth a resurrection is not literal. It is figurative of coming out of sin, into life.
Right. I've said that many times.

But a physical resurrection cannot be figurative. It has to be literal,
I've never said otherwise. Christ's resurrection, which is the first resurrection, was a literal resurrection of His physical body.

and it is literally the first resurrection of the physical body. In fact John never used the term in his gospel, but the first use of the term was for those in Revelation 20:4 after the battle of Armageddon. But that does not mean that it cannot apply to those prior to the battle of Armageddon. It applies to Lazarus as well. You claim it applies in the first century, so why can it not apply to Lazarus?
Lazarus, like all believers, had part in the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection) by spiritually being spiritually raised from being dead in sins to spiritually alive with Christ.
 

Timtofly

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No, I didn't miss it. You often say things that misrepresent what I've said and you were complaining about another person doing that to you in response to things that you said to him.

You complain. I did not.


I address them when I can actually understand them, but most of what you say is unintelligible.

You understand your traditional theology. Scripture is foreign to you?

In what other sense was Jesus's resurrection the first except that it was the first resurrection unto bodily immortality?

Scripture is very clear that His resurrection was the first resurrection of some kind. So, in what sense was it the first resurrection in your opinion?

Acts 26:22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Jesus simply had a physical resurrection. Lazarus had a physical resurrection into a permanent incorruptible physical body. Paul uses the terms "tent" and "building" in 2 Corinthians 5:1. The difference between temporal and permanent. A physical body after Adam's dead flesh is corruptible as opposed to the permanent body in Paradise with is incorruptible. No 30 chapters in some theological treatise explaining human understanding, like immortal and spiritual immortality.

God's physical body that He used to create the sons of God on the 6th day, including Adam was permanent and incorruptible. Adam disobeyed and his soul left that body and entered a temporal corruptible physical body. It is called Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The Greeks called it the difference between mortal and immortal. Paul called it the difference between corruptible and incorruptible, as well as temporal (a tent) and permanent (a building).

Jesus was never a sinner. Unless you are going to prove it from Scripture.

Paul never met Lazarus. Lazarus went to Paradise with the rest of those resurrected physically out of Abraham's bosom. Paul wrote that Jesus went to sheol to preach to those who were "the dead". A resurrection is from out of physical death.

I insist no such thing. This is another example of you misrepresenting my beliefs. You do it often. Why? Because you know I don't actually believe those things, but you like to just play games? Or is it because you have poor reading comprehension skills?

Of course you do. You claim the first resurrection is the second birth. The first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 is only physical. It is not Jesus' resurrection. It is not being in Christ spiritually. Yes, Jesus experienced the first resurrection, out of physical death. You use the sense that being dead in sin, spiritually, and the second birth is then the first resurrection. No, the first resurrection is only a physical resurrection, not a metaphorical spiritual resurrection. Jesus was not a sinner in Adam's dead flesh. His resurrection was not spiritual out of sin. The resurrection that Sunday morning was only physical, as are all first resurrections.

You don't get a new physical body when you experience the second birth.


The first resurrection was physical. It was Christ's physical, bodily resurrection. But, scripture talks about believers spiritually having part in His resurrection. Such as in this passage:

Colossians 2:11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh[b] was put off when you were circumcised by[c] Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Do you understand that when we become spiritually saved we go from being dead in our sins to being made spiritually alive with Christ by being spiritually "raised with him"?

I understand that is a metaphor and not literal.

Right. I've said that many times.

You also keep saying those beheaded only mean they were symbolically resurrected, not literally. Yet that is what happened to them after the battle of Armageddon. They were physically resurrected out of physical death. The first resurrection.

I've never said otherwise. Christ's resurrection, which is the first resurrection, was a literal resurrection of His physical body.

Of course you symbolize a future group of people who are literally beheaded instead of taking the mark. You deny them their physical resurrection. You have replaced literal people with the symbolic phrase spiritual resurrection. You take away the first resurrection from these future people and give their physical resurrection to all those who experienced the second birth.

How can you call it a physical resurrection, but don't apply it physically? Those who literally get their head chopped off, later experience the second birth, but never a physical resurrection? That is not misrepresenting you. That is pointing out how the first resurrection is only physical and not part of the second birth at all. These people literally chose to have their head chopped off to avoid the mark. That was the point of their second birth. The most important decision they will make. Then later they receive the first resurrection after standing in judgment before those thrones in verse 4.


Lazarus, like all believers, had part in the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection) by spiritually being spiritually raised from being dead in sins to spiritually alive with Christ.

Also physically enjoying Paradise since 30AD. All in Paradise do have the first resurrection. You Do Not! You are still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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You complain. I did not.
You did, too. Are you forgetting what you said? You replied to poster "dad" and said "That is what I said. How can you butcher evey post I make?". That wasn't complaining? Sure seems like it to me.


You understand your traditional theology. Scripture is foreign to you?
My theology isn't based on tradition. And, no, scripture isn't foreign to me. Do you have any other dumb questions that you'd like to ask?

Jesus simply had a physical resurrection.
What does that mean? You don't think He was resurrected with an immortal body?

Lazarus had a physical resurrection into a permanent incorruptible physical body.
No, he did not. If that was the case, then in what sense was Jesus the first to rise from the dead as Acts 26:23 says?

Of course you do. You claim the first resurrection is the second birth. The first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 is only physical.
I will tell you what I believe. You don't tell me what I believe. I claim that having part in the first resurrection is the same as being born again/saved/raised to spiritual life after being dead in sins and having part in Christ's resurrection, the first resurrection, in that sense. But, I believe the first resurrection itself was Christ's bodily resurrection, as I have said many times.

You don't get a new physical body when you experience the second birth.
LOL. Who has said that? No one. So, why even say this? You are hilarious.

I understand that is a metaphor and not literal.
Then why don't you understand what it means to have part in the first resurrection, which was Christ's resurrection? That passage and other similar passages explain what that means.
 

Timtofly

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No, he did not. If that was the case, then in what sense was Jesus the first to rise from the dead as Acts 26:23 says?
In the sense that you use: symbolic. But Jesus was not the first literally resurrected. The OT came out of their graves 3 days prior to Jesus being resurrected, or at least the tomb being opened and no body found.

Except I don't use the symbolic point of Jesus being symbolically the first to rise, to contradict other Scripture. You change other Scripture to maintain your literal view of a symbolic point.

It is also a form of honor to give Jesus all the credit of this physical resurrection. Jesus did say on the day Lazarus was resurrected, that He was the resurrection and the life. The Cross made that possible, but did not hinder the point that Jesus was the resurrection and the life prior to the Cross.

Your example of Lazarus means that Jesus was just a temporary resurrection and could only maintain life for a short time on earth. You literally send Lazarus to death twice. How is dying twice an example of the resurrection and the life? Perhaps Lazarus did not physically rise, but they all accepted he was eternally spiritually risen? The story was just a parable and never happened like when Lazarus died and went to Abraham's bosom many claim is just a parable?

When Paul spoke those words, many of the Jews, Paul was speaking to, had not accepted Jesus was Messiah nor was ever raised from the dead. Paul was telling them they should know that from the writings of Moses, and the prophets.

Then why don't you understand what it means to have part in the first resurrection, which was Christ's resurrection? That passage and other similar passages explain what that means.
I do understand. You don't. The first resurrection is getting a permanent incorruptible physical body. Jesus being the first to rise from the dead is a symbolic first, not the first resurrection. You are turning symbolism into a literal point. You are changing what the first resurrection is, which is physical, a new permanent incorruptible physical body.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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In the sense that you use: symbolic.
You take symbolic text literally and literal text symbolically. Ask God for wisdom so that you can differentiate between literal and symbolic text (James 1:5-7). What is it symbolic of then?

But Jesus was not the first literally resurrected.
Right. But, He was the first to rise unto bodily immortality. It wasn't possible for anyone else to have bodily immortality before His death and resurrection. Part of the reason He died and rose again was to make it so that His people would one day have eternal life in immortal bodies.

The OT came out of their graves 3 days prior to Jesus being resurrected, or at least the tomb being opened and no body found.
No one is saying that Jesus was the first to be resurrected in any sense, so don't waste your time arguing against something that no one is even claiming.

Except I don't use the symbolic point of Jesus being symbolically the first to rise, to contradict other Scripture. You change other Scripture to maintain your literal view of a symbolic point.
If you're going to claim that He was the first to be resurrected in a symbolic sense, then why are you not even bothering to explain in what sense He was the first to be resurrected symbolically? He was obviously literally physically, bodily resurrected from the dead. So, what was symbolic about that?

It is also a form of honor to give Jesus all the credit of this physical resurrection. Jesus did say on the day Lazarus was resurrected, that He was the resurrection and the life. The Cross made that possible, but did not hinder the point that Jesus was the resurrection and the life prior to the Cross.
Nothing you're saying here supports your claim that He was the first to rise from the dead in a symbolic sense.

Your example of Lazarus means that Jesus was just a temporary resurrection and could only maintain life for a short time on earth.
No, it doesn't mean that at all. Stop making things up. It doesn't help your case when you just make up nonsense.

You literally send Lazarus to death twice.
So what? He will be resurrected again one day and will have an immortal body. It all works out just fine in the end for Lazarus, so what is the problem here exactly?

I do understand. You don't.
You understand nothing.

The first resurrection is getting a permanent incorruptible physical body. Jesus being the first to rise from the dead is a symbolic first, not the first resurrection. You are turning symbolism into a literal point. You are changing what the first resurrection is, which is physical, a new permanent incorruptible physical body.
Wrong. The first resurrection was Jesus's resurrection and it was a physical, bodily resurrection. Passages like the following explain how we have part in His resurrection, the first resurrection, spiritually:

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
 

Timtofly

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So what? He will be resurrected again one day and will have an immortal body. It all works out just fine in the end for Lazarus, so what is the problem here exactly?
The fact that he has had that permanent incorruptible physical body for 1993 years in Paradise is the so what. Perhaps he is up there wondering why you cannot understand reality, but settle for living in symbolism instead?

No one is currently in a state of death in Paradise, especially not physically.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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The fact that he has had that permanent incorruptible physical body for 1993 years in Paradise is the so what. Perhaps he is up there wondering why you cannot understand reality, but settle for living in symbolism instead?

No one is currently in a state of death in Paradise, especially not physically.
LOL. You have no idea of what you are talking about and never do. You can't be taken seriously. I'm not going to waste any more time on this.
 

Keturah

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Matthew 24:21-33

21 For then shall be great TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be  shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulations of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors


Notice tribulations is not plural here but announced the fact THIS IS THE LAST.
Shortened is a specific time frame.
False christ ,prophets & teachings shall arise.....let us hold fast the doctrine of Christ.

Immediately after those days there will be signs, they are given in this discourse.
THEN SHALL APPEAR THE ....SIGN....and he shall with the sound of the TRUMPET shall he send his angels to gather his elect.

Notice it is the angels gathering......,

Do not buy into pre-tribulation rapture for no where is the surprised unknown to any but those caught away rapture happening. Jesus very own words are explicit in defining the signs of his second coming.......:My2c: