PAUL WROTE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE TEACHERS

[dad]

For a time the two witnesses shall indeed witness . BUT THE BEAST that came up out of the pit
WILL be allowed to kill them . dont forget that part .

Right after the time they prophesy.

Revelation 11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

That is the Great Tribulation. They are allowed to be killed at the end of it.

I think the point with the other poster had to do with them being confused in thinking all that happened after the 1000 years or some such.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That was my point . How on earth could antiochus the fourth have been this
WHEN JESUS speaks of it NOT AS A PAST EVENT . but rather a FUTURE EVENT . Just a friendly reminder .
I mean JESUS Didnt say , HEY ol antiochus fullfilled this . HE SAID , WHEN ye SHALL SEE .
SHALL SEE . FUTURE event .

Of course, but when people have an agenda, Scripture gets butchered in its language. future tenses do not matter.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So you think the abomination is after Jesus has already returned to earth. OK. What can I say? The 3 1/2 yr great tribulation is not adding time, it is half the seven years.

Not at all. The AOd is the antichrist. and Her signs a 7 year treaty that starts the 70th week of Daniel. Jesus returns after those seven years and defeats the antichrist.

 

[dad]

Not at all. The AOd is the antichrist. and Her signs a 7 year treaty that starts the 70th week of Daniel. Jesus returns after those seven years and defeats the antichrist.

Except it is known and certain the AntiChrist is a man. Not something set up someplace.

 

[Timtofly]

The wilderness is space? Where did you dig that one up?

You tell me where the sea of glass is if not in "space". Paradise is in "space". Your "space" is literally the firmament. There is no other thing other than the firmament. The firmament is called heaven in Genesis 1.

So you are claiming that if we went to a tomb of the patriarchs, all bones would have disappeared? Seriously?

No that is Adam's dead corruptible flesh. God's incorruptible flesh is in "space".

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

None actually at all. Not a one. Jesus returns at the seventh trumpet. The nations are then become all His. You conflate events. Now you are sticking a large number of events after the return of Jesus

Ok? Don't call the last Seal, the first 6 Trumpets, and 7 Thunders events. Call them whatever you want. That is still 14 "things" John highlights between the 6th Seal and the 7th Trumpet.

Conflate them all and call all the Seals, Thunders, and Trumpets the 7th Trumpet. You are the one complaining others conflate things and then you won't even call the Seals, Thunders, and Trumpets events.

The 6th Seal is the Second Coming. John claims events after the Second Coming. Even the 1,000 years is after the Second Coming. Jesus tells us He and the angels are on the earth after the Second Coming. Kind of hard to be on the earth prior to the Second Coming.

 

[dad]

You tell me where the sea of glass is if not in "space". Paradise is in "space". Your "space" is literally the firmament. There is no other thing other than the firmament. The firmament is called heaven in Genesis 1.

So it seems you are saying the sea of glass is not on earth. I would agree.

No that is Adam's dead corruptible flesh. God's incorruptible flesh is in "space".

Not when we return with HIm here.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Ok? Don't call the last Seal, the first 6 Trumpets, and 7 Thunders events. Call them whatever you want. That is still 14 "things" John highlights between the 6th Seal and the 7th Trumpet.

OK I'll bite, list them

Conflate them all and call all the Seals, Thunders, and Trumpets the 7th Trumpet. You are the one complaining others conflate things and then you won't even call the Seals, Thunders, and Trumpets events.

Call WHAT seals? Be specific.

The 6th Seal is the Second Coming. John claims events after the Second Coming. Even the 1,000 years is after the Second Coming. Jesus tells us He and the angels are on the earth after the Second Coming. Kind of hard to be on the earth prior to the Second Coming.

That makes no sense. How would the rule of Christ on earth for 1000 years make it hard for people to be on the earth before that rule over them??
And in case any lurker doubted that 1000 years was on earth have a look at the verse below
Revelation 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Timtofly]

We are told how long the witnesses prophesy it matches exactly the time of the great trib.

You have no clue how long the tribulation is. Jesus said it will be shortened. So how much time will it be shortened to?

The 42 months when Satan is in charge is not the tribulation. Those 42 months are after the 7th Trumpet. The tribulation is the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders. Satan's 42 months is after the 7th Trumpet. You do understand that the 3rd woe is Satan's 42 months, right? The 7th Trumpet is not the 3rd woe. The Trumpets are one thing, and the 3 woes are seperate actions along with the last 3 Trumpets.

No verse claims Jesus comes to earth at the 7th Trumpet. Some claim that is what Paul is referring to. The same Trumpet could sound at the Second Coming. It is not the same sounding as the 7th Trumpet according to John, because John does not write Revelation that way.

The Trumpets are not a countdown. The Seals are not a countdown. There may be many more events than those given.

There was no OT prophecy that declared 12 disciples would be chosen, but there is a prophecy where 144k are chosen. They follow Jesus all over the earth at the Second Coming just like the 12 disciples in the first century. They are not just sealed and sit at home for several years doing nothing. When the 6th Seal is opened, Jesus comes to earth, and immediately those 144k are sealed. They then go wherever Jesus goes during the Trumpets and Thunders.

 

[Timtofly]

I think the point with the other poster had to do with them being confused in thinking all that happened after the 1000 years or some such.

I am thinking you don't even read my post. You cannot even get them straight as to what I am even saying.

 

[Timtofly]

So it seems you are saying the sea of glass is not on earth. I would agree.


Not when we return with HIm here.



OK I'll bite, list them



Call WHAT seals? Be specific.


That makes no sense. How would the rule of Christ on earth for 1000 years make it hard for people to be on the earth before that rule over them??
And in case any lurker doubted that 1000 years was on earth have a look at the verse below
Revelation 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

That is what I said. How can you butcher evey post I make?

You claim Jesus is not on earth with the 144k during the Tribulation. Jesus and the angels are on the earth when the 144k are sealed. They are His disciples during the Tribulation.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Except it is known and certain the AntiChrist is a man. Not something set up someplace.

Exactly.

 

[amigo de christo]

Exactly.

Of course its a man . FOR EVEN NOW are their MANY anti christs . Now let that sink in a bit .
The spirit of anti christ rules through ...............................MANKIND .
And now a word .
For these are spirits sent forth to gather the world together unto the day of armegeddon .
THIS is that which ye have heard should come , wrote john , EVEN NOW IS IT ALREADY IN THE WORLD .
You ever wonder why a man , like me , who refuses to follow pre trib , YET HOLLERS THE COMING OF JESUS draws nigh .
YOU might ask yourself , WHY ON EARTH I SAY THIS .
The dragon , the beast that was , is NOT and yet IS , the FP
You ever wonder what john is seeing .
A represenation of what is occuring . Look closer .
For if we examine farther into revelation , we will understand why JESUS said for MANY , MANY false prophets shall arise .
Me thinks a lot of folks are waiting for this coming HOLLY WOOD AC . WHEN in truth that which is of IT
is amongst us even now . I SEE A WORLD getting united under a very , very strong delusion RIGHT NOW .
SO STRONG its calling itself LOVE and its gathing secular to every religon RIGHT UNDER ITS WEB .
AND they seem to HATE TRUTH and yet EMBRACE THIS LIE that is gathering them under FALSE LOVE , FALSE UNITY
bto be as ONE
OH YOUVE HEARD IT , but i dont think you realize IT .
SO allow me to show us something . HOW come the wicans , satanist even , all religoins
are all so big on this WE ARE ONE . CAUSE A NASTY DELUSION has been sent
unto a generation . A generation which want ZERO reminder of GOD
and thus REPROBATION OF MINDS , IT HAS BEEN GIVEN . TO RISE AS ONE for a COMMON CAUSE
a cause which HUMANITY , no matter what religoin it is of , CAN EMBRACE .
TIMES RUNNING OUT RONALD . TIMES RUNNING OUT . AND many are ALREADY UNDER
this influence . SOME have waxed worse than others , BUT BELIEVE ME IN TIME ALL WILL UNITE AS ONE .
ONE VOICE , ONE MIND , ONE MAN . AND THE HEAD IS SATAN AND NOT GOD .

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Of course its a man . FOR EVEN NOW are their MANY anti christs . Now let that sink in a bit .
The spirit of anti christ rules through ...............................MANKIND .
And now a word .
For these are spirits sent forth to gather the world together unto the day of armegeddon .
THIS is that which ye have heard should come , wrote john , EVEN NOW IS IT ALREADY IN THE WORLD .
You ever wonder why a man , like me , who refuses to follow pre trib , YET HOLLERS THE COMING OF JESUS draws nigh .
YOU might ask yourself , WHY ON EARTH I SAY THIS .
The dragon , the beast that was , is NOT and yet IS , the FP
You ever wonder what john is seeing .
A represenation of what is occuring . Look closer .
For if we examine farther into revelation , we will understand why JESUS said for MANY , MANY false prophets shall arise .
Me thinks a lot of folks are waiting for this coming HOLLY WOOD AC . WHEN in truth that which is of IT
is amongst us even now . I SEE A WORLD getting united under a very , very strong delusion RIGHT NOW .
SO STRONG its calling itself LOVE and its gathing secular to every religon RIGHT UNDER ITS WEB .
AND they seem to HATE TRUTH and yet EMBRACE THIS LIE that is gathering them under FALSE LOVE , FALSE UNITY
bto be as ONE
OH YOUVE HEARD IT , but i dont think you realize IT .
SO allow me to show us something . HOW come the wicans , satanist even , all religoins
are all so big on this WE ARE ONE . CAUSE A NASTY DELUSION has been sent
unto a generation . A generation which want ZERO reminder of GOD
and thus REPROBATION OF MINDS , IT HAS BEEN GIVEN . TO RISE AS ONE for a COMMON CAUSE
a cause which HUMANITY , no matter what religoin it is of , CAN EMBRACE .
TIMES RUNNING OUT RONALD . TIMES RUNNING OUT . AND many are ALREADY UNDER
this influence . SOME have waxed worse than others , BUT BELIEVE ME IN TIME ALL WILL UNITE AS ONE .
ONE VOICE , ONE MIND , ONE MAN . AND THE HEAD IS SATAN AND NOT GOD .

Yes the world is moving towards the end and nothing can stop what God is in charge of.

 

[Keturah]

.....,"nothing can stop what God is in charge of." Ronald Nolette

Amen! Few believe this CONCEPT; that it is GOD who is in charge !

Man is nothing here but a puff of wind, a flower that fadeth so we might ask ourselves to WHOM do we belong !

 

[dad]

I am thinking you don't even read my post. You cannot even get them straight as to what I am even saying.

No, when people are clear it is easy to tell

 

[dad]

That is what I said. How can you butcher evey post I make?

You claim Jesus is not on earth with the 144k during the Tribulation. Jesus and the angels are on the earth when the 144k are sealed. They are His disciples during the Tribulation.

I do see that the 144,000 witnesses who prophesy exactly the same length as the Great Tribulation are here before Jesus returns, since He returns immediately after the tribulation.

 

[dad]

You have no clue how long the tribulation is. Jesus said it will be shortened. So how much time will it be shortened to?

Not a day. Those days are shortened BY the tribulation.last seven years of God wrapping things up. The time is set.

The 42 months when Satan is in charge is not the tribulation.

Wrong.

Those 42 months are after the 7th Trumpet. The tribulation is the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders. Satan's 42 months is after the 7th Trumpet. You do understand that the 3rd woe is Satan's 42 months, right? The 7th Trumpet is not the 3rd woe. The Trumpets are one thing, and the 3 woes are seperate actions along with the last 3 Trumpets.

Confused and conflated word salad.

No verse claims Jesus comes to earth at the 7th Trumpet.

Since that is the final trumpet and the mystery is over then, you have no leg to stand on.

Some claim that is what Paul is referring to. The same Trumpet could sound at the Second Coming. It is not the same sounding as the 7th Trumpet according to John, because John does not write Revelation that way.

More confusion. I don't care about trumpets. One sounds at the Rapture, more sound in the tribulation. If you are talking any trumpet it cannot be after Jesus returns.

The Trumpets are not a countdown. The Seals are not a countdown. There may be many more events than those given.

Says who? The sequence of events is in order. Not random. First the seals, then trumpets, then vials etc. If any of the seals were an overview and include what happens in the trumpets, it is still a countdown, and ordered sequence of events.

There was no OT prophecy that declared 12 disciples would be chosen, but there is a prophecy where 144k are chosen. They follow Jesus all over the earth at the Second Coming just like the 12 disciples in the first century.

Verse that says they only start to witness after it is too late and the 1260 day trib is over??

They are not just sealed and sit at home for several years doing nothing. When the 6th Seal is opened, Jesus comes to earth, and immediately those 144k are sealed. They then go wherever Jesus goes during the Trumpets and Thunders.

Unless you conflate things. Looking at that chapter with the sixth seal I saw no passage that even mentioned the 144,000 witnesses. How do you explain that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is what I said. How can you butcher evey post I make?

Now you know how I feel when you reply to my posts.

 

[Timtofly]

Now you know how I feel when you reply to my posts.

How would you know if you cannot even understand my posts? I just point out where you are wrong. I don't butcher your posts. At least I know where you stand.

You just don't like my style of posting.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How would you know if you cannot even understand my posts?

You are revealing your lack of reading comprehension skills again. You complained about someone else butchering your posts because of not understanding what you were saying, right? So, I am saying you do the same thing to my posts. You misunderstand them and butcher them by asking me questions in response that have nothing to do with what I was saying or you try to tell me that I'm saying something very different than what I actually said.

I just point out where you are wrong. I don't butcher your posts. At least I know where you stand.

You can't point out where I'm supposedly wrong when you're not even understanding what I'm saying. You butcher my posts all of the time. That shouldn't offend you that I say that. I know what I'm intending to say and you often misunderstand what I'm saying as evidenced by your questions and responses that don't apply to what I was actually saying.

You just don't like my style of posting.

Well, that's true, too, but that's a different issue than what we're talking about here. You misrepresenting or misunderstanding what I say is a different issue than your style of posting.

 

[Timtofly]

You are revealing your lack of reading comprehension skills again. You complained about someone else butchering your posts because of not understanding what you were saying, right? So, I am saying you do the same thing to my posts. You misunderstand them and butcher them by asking me questions in response that have nothing to do with what I was saying or you try to tell me that I'm saying something very different than what I actually said.


You can't point out where I'm supposedly wrong when you're not even understanding what I'm saying. You butcher my posts all of the time. That shouldn't offend you that I say that. I know what I'm intending to say and you often misunderstand what I'm saying as evidenced by your questions and responses that don't apply to what I was actually saying.


Well, that's true, too, but that's a different issue than what we're talking about here. You misrepresenting or misunderstanding what I say is a different issue than your style of posting.

You missed the point then about butchering my post. I ask questions to show how one thing cannot be another thing.

That is not what the poster was doing at all.

You have obviously never addressed any points I have made, but totally dismissed them instead of proving them wrong from Scripture. So your replies to me prove you cannot refute my points with Scripture.

For starters you claim Jesus had a resurrection to immortality. That is not found in Scripture, and you butcher the Scripture to make a point that does not exist. Then you use that point to claim Lazarus was never raised incorruptible, because of a time difference between his resurrection and the Cross.

Not to mention your continued insistence that a physical resurrection is the same exact thing as the second birth into God's family. So all those already dead will not experience the second birth until they are physically resurrected, the first resurrection.


You will then complain that I butcher your point, because you say they receive the first resurrection, at the second birth, because it is not physical.

If the first resurrection is not physical, then why is the first birth and first death physical? Is the physical resurrection now the "second" resurrection?

Calling the second birth a resurrection is not literal. It is figurative of coming out of sin, into life. But a physical resurrection cannot be figurative. It has to be literal, and it is literally the first resurrection of the physical body. In fact John never used the term in his gospel, but the first use of the term was for those in Revelation 20:4 after the battle of Armageddon. But that does not mean that it cannot apply to those prior to the battle of Armageddon. It applies to Lazarus as well. You claim it applies in the first century, so why can it not apply to Lazarus?

If the first resurrection is already describing a physical phenomenon, and works, why confuse people by saying it is the same thing as the second birth? They both are descriptive terms, and now you have 2 names for one phenomenon, and no term now for the physical resurrection.

The first resurrection is physically going from death to life. That is a reality. The second birth is starting out in God's family. No one talks about the second death as being cast out of God's family, but that is exactly what that is. The LoF is removing all possibility of ever being in God's family as a son of God. But the term second is always spiritual, and should never be used in the physical sense. "The dead" is still all inclusive that they are physically and spiritually dead, not that they used to live physically on the earth but no longer do. In fact "the dead" from a spiritual perspective are even those alive on the earth in physical bodies. Hence the point at the second birth there is a sense of a resurrection. "The dead" are all of Adam's descendants who have not experienced the second birth. In fact "the dead" in Christ could only mean those alive on earth. They are now in Christ, but still physically alive in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. "The dead" cannot enter heaven without a permanent incorruptible physical body. Obviously they could not even as souls, because those souls were hanging out with Abraham in a section of sheol, until the Cross. Saying the dead in Christ are those currently in heaven is not even biblical, any more than the second birth is the first resurrection. You claim the second birth happens on earth. But in order to even enter Paradise, one has to have the first resurrection. No one in Abraham's bosom had that first resurrection until Jesus called them out of their graves and gave them the first resurrection. Lazarus was the first one called out of Abraham's bosom. So you don't have that first resurrection, because you are still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, even with the second birth. You are "the dead" in Christ walking around on the earth.

But you all confuse that spiritual state even with what happened to Adam. Adam's soul literally went from one physical body into a dead physical body, a literal death that was physical. You don't accept that point, even though you expect to have that process reversed in your so called "resurrection to immortality" whatever that means. Paul never wrote that concept down in any of his writings.

Adam did indeed physically die that instant he disobeyed God. That is why we have to shed Adam's dead flesh and put on God's permanent incorruptible physical body. And that is the only first resurrection, because it is physical. And Lazarus was given that physical body, and he would have ascended with the rest of Abraham's bosom when they came out of their graves physically at the Cross. We don't have Scripture to prove either way that Lazarus physically died again, or ascended with the rest of Abraham's bosom. The point is they had to wait until the physical Cross to enter Paradise physically. That is the whole point; the physical issue was resolved at the Cross. The spiritual part, putting on the spirit, will be resolved at the Second Coming. But no one is waiting to put on a physical body, because Paul states it is already there in Paradise in 2 Corinthians 5:1.