PAUL WROTE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE TEACHERS

[Timtofly]

Why is that a point rather than fiction? Proof?"

Are you talking about fiction? I am not.

We know how Jesus was killed. By the way which cross in Rev 10 are you referring to?

You claimed if the word does not appear in the text it is not about "that word".

Not in any way. That old guy in ancient history could not possibly have fulfilled anything to do with ending the transgression and bringing in everlasting righteousness.

Antiochus Epiphanes is the fulfillment of the AoD mentioned in Daniel.

Yes, that is why the days were given from the time certain things happen. That is why they days were also given as months and years. Your utter confusion has no justification whatsoever.

Your denial of Antiochus Epiphanes means you don't understand Daniel.

Not true. He said when we see THE abomination Daniel prophesied.

Who is "we"? When you see it, you will be looking down from heaven.

Nor should they, why invent things they should have seen?

Are you inventing? I am not.

OK. But 27 is a doosy.

It is the 7th Trumpet. Is the 7th Trumpet a doosy?

No, who confirmed some covenant for seven years?

No one.

Not the first coming. There was some time between that and His return though of course.

From the time Messiah was cut off, until Jesus comes as King.

Daniel 12:11
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

156 BC when Antiochus Epiphanes set up the AoD mentioned in Daniel.

No, that is the time till the end so there was no 1290 days in Jesus' day that brought us to the end.

Of course. 156BC is roughly 156 years before Jesus was on the earth.

The time transgression on earth and in Israel end as well as when everlasting righteousness is brought to the world is long past the cross.

Been 1993 years.

Say what? No cross is mentioned.

Messiah cut off is the Cross.

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

That started at the Cross.

It is safe to say that the second coming is in the last days.

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Is this the Second Coming?

Since Jesus told them to flee when they saw the abomination of desolation of course the 3 and a half years correspond.

Who is on earth after the 7th Trumpet sounds?

Jesus referred to the actual Daniel of old. What he revealed to John later fits perfectly to that.

So does Antiochus Epiphanes fit perfect with an AoD set up in the temple. John did not write about Antiochus Epiphanes. So like that, but not the same. Jesus referred to Daniel because it was already fulfilled. Those who heard that message, knew exactly what Hanukkah was. The reader of the gospel needs to look it up and understand what Hanukkah is. Jesus did not quote Maccabees, Jesus quoted Daniel, and they that heard knew Scripture had been fulfilled, and would be fulfilled again in like manner in the future.

Say what? The GWT judgment is when the 1000 years after He returns to earth are over.

Once again:

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Is that the GWT judgment?

No one was looking forward to that at all actually. Seriously, the final judgment of the unsaved?

Once again:

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Is that the GWT judgment? This is what Martha knew:

"Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world."

Martha knew Daniel and the last day resurrection. Did Lazarus rise again in the resurrection at the last day? Was Lazarus the first to come out of the dust? Was Lazarus the first to be called out of his grave?

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Sound familiar?

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

You inserted a trumpet none is mentioned in Rev 12. Why?

No Trumpet inserted. Satan was inserted into the events of the 12th chapter, during the 7th Trumpet.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever..... And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven.... And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."

All part of the 7th Trumpet sounding.

Revelation 10:5-7

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Is Daniel 9:24 about a set time period of 70 weeks? Is that time up at the 7th Trumpet?

Anyhow you seem to be disconnected from Scripture and we have nothing in common to discuss.

I only discuss Scripture so you must be the one disconnected having nothing in common with Scripture.

 

[dad]

Are you talking about fiction? I am not.

Yet you insert trumpets in Dan when none were mentioned.

You claimed if the word does not appear in the text it is not about "that word".

No? What is it about then you pretending it is about trumpets?

Antiochus Epiphanes is the fulfillment of the AoD mentioned in Daniel.

No, the end time is where Dan focused and the end of transgressions, everlasting righteousness and such.

Your denial of Antiochus Epiphanes means you don't understand Daniel.

No one denies that the chapter talks of that punk for a bit. It launches far into the future though afterwards.

Who is "we"? When you see it, you will be looking down from heaven.

We meaning believers of that day. They are in the family also despite still being on earth.

It is the 7th Trumpet. Is the 7th Trumpet a doosy?

That is mentioned where in the verse? Oh, wait it isn't.

No one.

Dan says it was confirmed for the time. Later we see several instances of where it is confirmed that the time after it is confirmed is exactly half of seven years.

From the time Messiah was cut off, until Jesus comes as King.

No, transgression still existed after that. They killed Him, for example. Wait, they were even called transgressors!

Proverbs 2:22

But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.


Still transgressors till the end! No end of transgressions till then.

Been 1993 years.

Yet transgressions are not stopped and still getting worse till the end.
Daniel 8:23
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Messiah cut off is the Cross.

Right and that happened after 69 weeks. Still one seven year period to go.

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

That started at the Cross.

Prove it

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Is this the Second Coming?

When do you think the dead are raised?

Who is on earth after the 7th Trumpet sounds?

Jesus and His saints and the nations we rule.

So does Antiochus Epiphanes fit perfect with an AoD set up in the temple. John did not write about Antiochus Epiphanes. So like that, but not the same. Jesus referred to Daniel because it was already fulfilled.

No, the one written about by Daniel, if we understand it, is in the end time. That is when believers will need to flee for 3 1/2 years

Those who heard that message, knew exactly what Hanukkah was. The reader of the gospel needs to look it up and understand what Hanukkah is. Jesus did not quote Maccabees, Jesus quoted Daniel, and they that heard knew Scripture had been fulfilled, and would be fulfilled again in like manner in the future.

And Daniel wrote of the end time.

Once again:

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Is that the GWT judgment?

What would you say it was?

Once again:

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Is that the GWT judgment? This is what Martha knew:

"Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world."

Martha knew Daniel and the last day resurrection. Did Lazarus rise again in the resurrection at the last day? Was Lazarus the first to come out of the dust? Was Lazarus the first to be called out of his grave?

Sounds like the Rapture. We will rise.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Sound familiar?

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

That is after the 1000 years I would think when the graves are opened. As for the second verse I would have to look into it. Sounds like possibly the judgment seat of Christ when we are rewarded, but some saved folks maybe will be ashamed somewhat.

No Trumpet inserted. Satan was inserted into the events of the 12th chapter, during the 7th Trumpet.

Says who? What verse says Satan was only on earth when the seventh trumpet blew?

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever..... And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven.... And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."

All part of the 7th Trumpet sounding

Says who? Maybe after the trumpet blew there were voices? Why talk when an important trump was going off?

Revelation 10:5-7

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Is Daniel 9:24 about a set time period of 70 weeks? Is that time up at the 7th Trumpet?

No. The trumpets all blow in the tribulation. You will not have them blowing for thousands of years.

 

[Timtofly]

Israel will still be global and the inhabitants of Judea will flee to most likely Petra.

It is for Jews will be slaughtered. Zech shows that during the trumpets and bowls 2/3 of Israel will be slaughtered

Now you are adding to Scripture your own hypotheses. Jesus just said when you see the AOD spoken of by Daniel satnd in the Holy Place- then flee! He did not say it was about AE IV- that is you forcing an opinion on the text!

Antiochus was not teh abomination of Desolation. He did not end the sacrifce for 3 1/2 years and a month! It is still future.
!

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )"

Did you not see the parenthesis?

Those who heard Jesus that day knew exactly what Jesus was talking about.

They are not the readers of the text. You and I are the readers.

Do we have the exact story of Hanukkah or is it lost to history? Do you know every single detail of that event? They claimed that Antiochus set up an AoD in the temple and stopped the daily sacrifice for at least 3 years. You can argue with history.

John points out 2 billion are killed in the Seals. Another 2 billion in the Trumpets. More than likely 2 billion in the Thunders. We don't know how many are raptured at the 6th Seal. Certainly all will die by the battle of Armageddon.

The theme of the Seals is centered around 4 or quarters. The theme of the Trumpets is centered around 3 or thirds. There are even 3 woes attached to the last 3 Trumpets.

Fortunately we nor Israel will be on earth for the Thunders. Nor are we told what even happens as they don't pertain to the church, nor Israel. Matthew 13 indcates the harvest is split between the wheat and the tares. My point would be the theme would be half or 2. Another 2 billion dead during the Thunders. Is that half of humans left? We don't know. We don't know how many will be raptured. Certainly being raptured is not the same as being killed in judgment. Are there 2 billion redeemed on earth? How about 1 billion?

At the end of last year, by human estimate, there were 8 billion on earth. It is easy to split 8 billion up in the book of Revelation. Now remove a billion or two at the rapture. We still are going to see billions of people die and removed through all events mention in Revelation. We know they die, because that is how John wrote it in Revelation. We know souls are removed by Jesus, because Paul wrote about the church being removed. Matthew in Mathew 25 points out the whole of Israel/Jacob are removed except the 144k who follow Jesus around on the earth.

These are the sheep and goats removed. We know the rest will be removed during the Thunders. That is explained by Jesus in Matthew 13. But certainly there are many still unaccounted for and that is why we see an extension of 42 months at the 7th Trumpet. These people will either receive the mark or some will accept Christ and their heads will be chopped off in the process of their testimony:

"I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands."

We can see that when the 7th Trumpet sounds that is all who is left on the earth. Those beheaded for the witness of Jesus, or those with the mark. No fence sitters.

"And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

"And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."

We see 7000 die here, and then 100% at Armageddon. After 42 months of total Abomination and desolation with nearly all resources exhausted, was Satan able to even sustain half a million population? Or even half a billion? Some here think that many are hiding out at the edges of society waiting for the end. How, when everything was burned up at the 6th Seal? Why would there be fire in Revelation 19 at the battle of Armageddon when most of the resources were depleted over the years leading up to Armageddon? Do people not realize how serious the 6th Seal event will be, when the heavens roll back as a scroll which is when Peter claims all the works on earth will be burned up?

"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

Not sure who you think is doing the slaughtering here? Have you read Matthew 25:31-46? We know the sheep go through the refinement as Zechariah states. We know the goats are cast alive into the fire. The Trumpets represents the entire call to assembly. As John states in the Trumpets a third of humans will be killed. You have to reconcile that point with the fact only 33% of those assembled will be sheep and 67% will be goats. And once again is that in addition to those killed in Revelation or part of? And none of Israel are on earth during the vials. As pointed out, the goats are already in the LOF at that point. The sheep would be those here:

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints."

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."

"And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

Scripture shows us who inherits the earth for the Millennium kingdom. The sheep, the wheat, and those beheaded. The sheep represents Israel. The wheat represents all the other nations, and those beheaded are the gleanings after the final harvest during Satan's 42 months.

 

[Timtofly]

Yet you insert trumpets in Dan when none were mentioned.

Nope, I inserted Daniel 9:27 into Revelation 10 and the 7th Trumpet.

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

No? What is it about then you pretending it is about trumpets?

The "trumpets" is your trumped up argument. I mentioned the Cross is not in Daniel 9:26, but Messiah being cut off is the Cross. Does Jesus not come as Prince at the Second Coming?

No, the end time is where Dan focused and the end of transgressions, everlasting righteousness and such.

So the Cross was the end?

No one denies that the chapter talks of that punk for a bit. It launches far into the future though afterwards.

You obviously miss the point many were resurrected at the Cross. Do you plan on being under ground when they bury your body, until the GWT judgment?

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

So Daniel is still alive today, waiting for death?

"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."

This is still future, and Daniel is still waiting?

We meaning believers of that day. They are in the family also despite still being on earth.

So those beheaded will see it, despite not having a head attached to their body?

That is mentioned where in the verse? Oh, wait it isn't.

Daniel is not mentioned in this verse:

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

So everything is finished except what was written in the book of Daniel?

Dan says it was confirmed for the time. Later we see several instances of where it is confirmed that the time after it is confirmed is exactly half of seven years.

Well 42 months is half of 7 years, but John tells us that in Revelation 13.

The Atonement is confirmed in the 7th Trumpet.

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The time given in Daniel is declared over at the 7th Trumpet.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

Sounds like a victory celebration to me that the Atonement is confirmed and accomplished. The final harvest is complete and the Millennium kingdom can start.

No, transgression still existed after that. They killed Him, for example. Wait, they were even called transgressors!

Proverbs 2:22

But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. Still transgressors till the end! No end of transgressions till then.

Well the Prince part is still future, when that 6th Seal is opened. All will be rooted out as promised.

Yet transgressions are not stopped and still getting worse till the end.
Daniel 8:23
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Still waiting for Jesus to come, not anyone else. You can wait for this other king.

Right and that happened after 69 weeks. Still one seven year period to go.

Messiah was completed in the first half of the 70th week. Only the Prince half is future.

Prove it

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

"And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go."

"Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

"And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

"But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

When do you think the dead are raised?

Lazarus was raised a few weeks before the Cross. All the OT came out of their graves at the Cross. Stephen practically walked into the arms of a standing Jesus:

"But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

Jesus and His saints and the nations we rule.

On the earth? Is this on the earth?

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

Where is any one you mentioned stated in these verses?

The sheep have been removed. The goats have been cast into the LOF. The wheat has been removed, placed in the barn (not on the earth). The tares cast into the LOF.

Is the sea of glass on the earth:

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

 

[Timtofly]

No, the one written about by Daniel, if we understand it, is in the end time. That is when believers will need to flee for 3 1/2 years

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

This is the one those on the earth at the 7th Trumpet need to worry about.

"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Pretty sure Satan is allowed to kill any one whom he can find. Fleeing would be most appropriate.

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Sounds like Israel can escape, leave the earth. Who are left, now? The ones beheaded. The contention is that one will need to flee from Satan, but to do what? Choose between taking the mark or chopping one's head off. What verse claims those who hide for 42 months are blessed? Are you inserting the vials into Daniel 12? If you don't insert the Trumpets into Daniel as you claim, how do you turn around and insert the vials into Daniel, contradicting your own argument?

And Daniel wrote of the end time.

Only this:

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

What would you say it was?

I pointed out that Daniel could not see past the Cross, but only saw a resurrection. The point has been made that even at the start of the Millennium many still wait in the dust for another 1,000 years. Most don't even accept a resurrection at the Cross. Only a spiritual second birth. Then they call that a resurrection. Many even claim that Michael mentioned in Daniel 12 happened at the Cross, but not a resurrection. Go figure that one out.

In my opinion he was talking about the GWT. Even then some will be given an opportunity to repent and receive eternal life, but only those in sheol prior to the Second Coming, and the 4th Seal when Death is introduced along side of sheol. But it was a mystery to Daniel and still is a mystery in this verse:

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Where does John explain this mystery? He only declares it is over. That is why I said Daniel sees both the Cross and the GWT, but cannot give us a distinction, so many just claim there is only one single resurrection, and still cannot see that Lazarus was the first one to rise out of the dust. And Daniel never said all, he said many. After the 6th Seal, billions will go straight to Death or the LOF. No coming out of the dust for them. That Death is permanent removal from the Lamb's book of life. I think Daniel saw that some would be given eternal life even at the GWT. John present it in the negative:

"But the rest of the dead lived not again."

Seems to me like most of them stay dead and live not again ever. They never lived in life, and will not live in the end, in the second death, the LOF. But yet some may as they stand as dead to either keep rejecting or change their minds without any excuses. Certainly no one in Christ is standing there as the dead. But until they are removed permanently from the Lamb's book of life, they can still choose to be in Christ. The chances are, at that point, they will still reject the Atonement, and be forever removed from the Lamb's book of life, and remain dead, and then experience the second death.

Yet even Daniel said some would have eternal life, and John implied they could live again.

Sounds like the Rapture. We will rise.

Well they were caught up when Christ ascended on Sunday morning. Not sure how "we" fit into that ascension. I already stated that all the OT already entered Paradise bodily. Call that a rapture or ascension, but they certainly are enjoying Paradise, severing God day and night in His temple.

All souls are caught up when they leave this body in the dust. They have their permanent incorruptible physical body now in Paradise.

That is after the 1000 years I would think when the graves are opened. As for the second verse I would have to look into it. Sounds like possibly the judgment seat of Christ when we are rewarded, but some saved folks maybe will be ashamed somewhat.

Well if you find a verse that states the graves are opened at the end of the Millennium reign of Jesus let me know.

 

[Timtofly]

Says who? What verse says Satan was only on earth when the seventh trumpet blew?

I quote the verses, and then you split them up, and cannot figure out these verses? The angels are loosed from the pit in the 5th Trumpet. They are cast out of heaven during the 7th Trumpet. That is the third woe:


"The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded."

"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."


The 5th Trumpet was the first woe. The angels were let out of the pit.

The 6th Trumpet was the 2nd woe. The army of Satan on the earth. Either human or still the angels.

So now we see the 7th Trumpet and the third woe. Satan on the earth. The 42 months and the AoD is the third woe, and it happens after the 7th Trumpet has started to sound.

Says who? Maybe after the trumpet blew there were voices? Why talk when an important trump was going off?

Are you thinking out loud that Scripture is wrong, or does not say what you want it to say?

No. The trumpets all blow in the tribulation. You will not have them blowing for thousands of years.

Is Daniel 9:24 about a set time period of 70 weeks? Is that time up at the 7th Trumpet?

Did you mean to say yes instead of no? I never even claimed they blow for 3.5 years, so certainly not a thousand. They could all blow in a few months and not last long at all. You are the one who thinks they cover 7 years or whatever you call the 7 years of your alleged tribulation.

The 7 Thunders sound prior to the 7th Trumpet and those 42 months. You have 14 events between the Second Coming and the 7th Trumpet. Then 3.5 years after the 7th Trumpet already started to sound you have the 7 vials that only cover 3.5 days between when the 2 witnesses are killed and the battle of Armageddon.

You have the 7th Seal.
Then 6 Trumpets.
Then 7 Thunders.
Then the 7th Trumpet.

That is how John wrote them down, or was told not to write them down. Do you think the 7 Thunders are not even going to happen?

 

[dad]

Nope, I inserted Daniel 9:27 into Revelation 10 and the 7th Trumpet.

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

You admit insertion then. OK. Both of those chapters focus on the end time, not some Greek leader of the Israel area thousands of years ago. Also, just because a verse says things are finally wrapped up in the end does not mean a trumpet blew for centuries or whatever you were trying to say yesterday.

The "trumpets" is your trumped up argument. I mentioned the Cross is not in Daniel 9:26, but Messiah being cut off is the Cross. Does Jesus not come as Prince at the Second Coming?

It is not news how Jesus died. Sorry if you thought you were breaking some.

So the Cross was the end?

Of what?

You obviously miss the point many were resurrected at the Cross. Do you plan on being under ground when they bury your body, until the GWT judgment?

No. Why?

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

So Daniel is still alive today, waiting for death?

Daniel is alive and well. His body is not yet.

"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."

This is still future, and Daniel is still waiting?

Yes. As are all believers dead or alive. We wait for our new eternal body like Jesus has. Even folks who are with Jesus now in Heaven. They return with Him at the Rapture and are first to have their bodies resurrected in the air.

So those beheaded will see it, despite not having a head attached to their body?

See what? If they lost their head only their spirits see anything.

Daniel is not mentioned in this verse:

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

So everything is finished except what was written in the book of Daniel?

No, all the prophesies regarding man and his rebellious rule on the world. That is the curtain close.

Well 42 months is half of 7 years, but John tells us that in Revelation 13.

The Atonement is confirmed in the 7th Trumpet.

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The time given in Daniel is declared over at the 7th Trumpet.

There were mysteries. One was how Jesus would come again for us. That also will be when transgressions in the world are ended. Not thousands of years ago.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

Sounds like a victory celebration to me that the Atonement is confirmed and accomplished. The final harvest is complete and the Millennium kingdom can start.

When Jesus returns He will rule with us. All kingdoms (notice there are still kingdoms?) will be under Him.

Well the Prince part is still future, when that 6th Seal is opened. All will be rooted out as promised.



Still waiting for Jesus to come, not anyone else. You can wait for this other king.



Messiah was completed in the first half of the 70th week. Only the Prince half is future.

I see. So you think Jesus is halved? First He is killed, then he is a prince coming to fight Israel! Ha. Try King of Kings and Lord of Lords!

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

"And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go."

"Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

"And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

"But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."


Lazarus was raised a few weeks before the Cross. All the OT came out of their graves at the Cross. Stephen practically walked into the arms of a standing Jesus:

But Lazarus went back to the tomb! That was not the new body that he had. The folks who were seen by many around His death also went to heaven I would think. That means they probably are returning at the Rapture to get their physical/spiritual eternal body.

"But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."



On the earth? Is this on the earth?

Prophets saw heaven. That is news?

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

Where is any one you mentioned stated in these verses?

Where are they not? When do tribulation saints get new bodies? Not at the Rapture if that was before the wrath.

The sheep have been removed. The goats have been cast into the LOF. The wheat has been removed, placed in the barn (not on the earth). The tares cast into the LOF.

Great. No news there. That happens at some point.

Is the sea of glass on the earth:

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

Doesn't sound like it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It seems you are saying that the Jews will mourn once their sacrifice is taken away for a month. If so, that works out to what I was thinking. It will likely take about a month to set up the abomination once the sacrifice is taken away. Then, once people see it up and running and the abomination is unveiled to the public there, then the countdown of 1260 days begins.

No this will be after Jesus returns. One cannot add any time to the 7 years. Once the treaty with the AC is signed- Jesus returns in 7 years,. So the 1290 and then the extra 3days are post return.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )"

Did you not see the parenthesis?

Those who heard Jesus that day knew exactly what Jesus was talking about.

They are not the readers of the text. You and I are the readers.

Do we have the exact story of Hanukkah or is it lost to history? Do you know every single detail of that event? They claimed that Antiochus set up an AoD in the temple and stopped the daily sacrifice for at least 3 years. You can argue with history.

John points out 2 billion are killed in the Seals. Another 2 billion in the Trumpets. More than likely 2 billion in the Thunders. We don't know how many are raptured at the 6th Seal. Certainly all will die by the battle of Armageddon.

The theme of the Seals is centered around 4 or quarters. The theme of the Trumpets is centered around 3 or thirds. There are even 3 woes attached to the last 3 Trumpets.

Fortunately we nor Israel will be on earth for the Thunders. Nor are we told what even happens as they don't pertain to the church, nor Israel. Matthew 13 indcates the harvest is split between the wheat and the tares. My point would be the theme would be half or 2. Another 2 billion dead during the Thunders. Is that half of humans left? We don't know. We don't know how many will be raptured. Certainly being raptured is not the same as being killed in judgment. Are there 2 billion redeemed on earth? How about 1 billion?

At the end of last year, by human estimate, there were 8 billion on earth. It is easy to split 8 billion up in the book of Revelation. Now remove a billion or two at the rapture. We still are going to see billions of people die and removed through all events mention in Revelation. We know they die, because that is how John wrote it in Revelation. We know souls are removed by Jesus, because Paul wrote about the church being removed. Matthew in Mathew 25 points out the whole of Israel/Jacob are removed except the 144k who follow Jesus around on the earth.

These are the sheep and goats removed. We know the rest will be removed during the Thunders. That is explained by Jesus in Matthew 13. But certainly there are many still unaccounted for and that is why we see an extension of 42 months at the 7th Trumpet. These people will either receive the mark or some will accept Christ and their heads will be chopped off in the process of their testimony:

"I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands."

We can see that when the 7th Trumpet sounds that is all who is left on the earth. Those beheaded for the witness of Jesus, or those with the mark. No fence sitters.

"And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

"And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."

We see 7000 die here, and then 100% at Armageddon. After 42 months of total Abomination and desolation with nearly all resources exhausted, was Satan able to even sustain half a million population? Or even half a billion? Some here think that many are hiding out at the edges of society waiting for the end. How, when everything was burned up at the 6th Seal? Why would there be fire in Revelation 19 at the battle of Armageddon when most of the resources were depleted over the years leading up to Armageddon? Do people not realize how serious the 6th Seal event will be, when the heavens roll back as a scroll which is when Peter claims all the works on earth will be burned up?

"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

Not sure who you think is doing the slaughtering here? Have you read Matthew 25:31-46? We know the sheep go through the refinement as Zechariah states. We know the goats are cast alive into the fire. The Trumpets represents the entire call to assembly. As John states in the Trumpets a third of humans will be killed. You have to reconcile that point with the fact only 33% of those assembled will be sheep and 67% will be goats. And once again is that in addition to those killed in Revelation or part of? And none of Israel are on earth during the vials. As pointed out, the goats are already in the LOF at that point. The sheep would be those here:

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints."

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."

"And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

Scripture shows us who inherits the earth for the Millennium kingdom. The sheep, the wheat, and those beheaded. The sheep represents Israel. The wheat represents all the other nations, and those beheaded are the gleanings after the final harvest during Satan's 42 months.

I will grant you that the last half of the 70th week, Satan is allowed to wreak havoc, but it is part of the 70th week and still within the allowance of what God will grant to Satan to do.

and you are wrong about Antiochus IV. Jesus said when you see (future not past) then you must do. The abomination will be when the Antichrist sits in the temple (most likely between the angels on top of the recreated mercy seat) and declare himself god. That will cause the sacrifice and oblations to cease! for that is when the false prophet creates an image ands causes it to speak and order all to take the mark of the beast.

 

[amigo de christo]

Yet you insert trumpets in Dan when none were mentioned.


No? What is it about then you pretending it is about trumpets?

No, the end time is where Dan focused and the end of transgressions, everlasting righteousness and such.



No one denies that the chapter talks of that punk for a bit. It launches far into the future though afterwards.

We meaning believers of that day. They are in the family also despite still being on earth.


That is mentioned where in the verse? Oh, wait it isn't.



Dan says it was confirmed for the time. Later we see several instances of where it is confirmed that the time after it is confirmed is exactly half of seven years.


No, transgression still existed after that. They killed Him, for example. Wait, they were even called transgressors!

Proverbs 2:22

But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.


Still transgressors till the end! No end of transgressions till then.




Yet transgressions are not stopped and still getting worse till the end.
Daniel 8:23
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.



Right and that happened after 69 weeks. Still one seven year period to go.



Prove it


When do you think the dead are raised?


Jesus and His saints and the nations we rule.


No, the one written about by Daniel, if we understand it, is in the end time. That is when believers will need to flee for 3 1/2 years



And Daniel wrote of the end time.

What would you say it was?



Sounds like the Rapture. We will rise.

That is after the 1000 years I would think when the graves are opened. As for the second verse I would have to look into it. Sounds like possibly the judgment seat of Christ when we are rewarded, but some saved folks maybe will be ashamed somewhat.



Says who? What verse says Satan was only on earth when the seventh trumpet blew?

Says who? Maybe after the trumpet blew there were voices? Why talk when an important trump was going off?

No. The trumpets all blow in the tribulation. You will not have them blowing for thousands of years.

Antiochus Epiphanes
Its rather odd that many claim this . what i mean is
WHY WOULD JESUS THEN , IN THIRTY THREE AD , warn the CHURCH ABOUT THE AOD as a future event .
WHY DID JESUS say , WHEN ye shall see the ABOMINATION of desolation spoken of in Daniel .
THEN FLEE . I mean if it occured years earlier , HOW could it have been fullfilled way back then , IF JESUS speaks of it as a future event .

 

[amigo de christo]

See how simple that is my friends . I MEAN JESUS SPOKE OF IT as though it were a coming event
NOT A PAST EVENT .

 

[amigo de christo]

I will grant you that the last half of the 70th week, Satan is allowed to wreak havoc, but it is part of the 70th week and still within the allowance of what God will grant to Satan to do.

and you are wrong about Antiochus IV. Jesus said when you see (future not past) then you must do. The abomination will be when the Antichrist sits in the temple (most likely between the angels on top of the recreated mercy seat) and declare himself god. That will cause the sacrifice and oblations to cease! for that is when the false prophet creates an image ands causes it to speak and order all to take the mark of the beast.

That was my point . How on earth could antiochus the fourth have been this
WHEN JESUS speaks of it NOT AS A PAST EVENT . but rather a FUTURE EVENT . Just a friendly reminder .
I mean JESUS Didnt say , HEY ol antiochus fullfilled this . HE SAID , WHEN ye SHALL SEE .
SHALL SEE . FUTURE event .

 

[dad]

No this will be after Jesus returns. One cannot add any time to the 7 years. Once the treaty with the AC is signed- Jesus returns in 7 years,. So the 1290 and then the extra 3days are post return.

So you think the abomination is after Jesus has already returned to earth. OK. What can I say? The 3 1/2 yr great tribulation is not adding time, it is half the seven years.

 

[dad]

Antiochus Epiphanes
Its rather odd that many claim this . what i mean is
WHY WOULD JESUS THEN , IN THIRTY THREE AD , warn the CHURCH ABOUT THE AOD as a future event .
WHY DID JESUS say , WHEN ye shall see the ABOMINATION of desolation spoken of in Daniel .
THEN FLEE . I mean if it occured years earlier , HOW could it have been fullfilled way back then , IF JESUS speaks of it as a future event .

Bingo

 

[Timtofly]

That was my point . How on earth could antiochus the fourth have been this
WHEN JESUS speaks of it NOT AS A PAST EVENT . but rather a FUTURE EVENT . Just a friendly reminder .
I mean JESUS Didnt say , HEY ol antiochus fullfilled this . HE SAID , WHEN ye SHALL SEE .
SHALL SEE . FUTURE event .

That is not the point. Daniel prophesied about Antiochus Epiphanes. You all take the already fulfilled prophesy and apply it to the future. It already happened so you cannot claim what Daniel wrote is still future.


Jesus was saying that there is a future AoD that they already knew about, that would happen some 2,000 years later.

I never said what Daniel prophesied is future. Daniel was just a point of reference Jesus was making.

Many interpret that verse claiming "they" (first century believers) literally saw the AoD in the first century. Many claim Daniel was fulfilled in 70AD. That is as wrong as claiming a future AC will sign a 7 year covenant.

You all are thinking that an AoD is only a one time event. No. Setting up an AoD was an ancient practice where the conqueror took away the religious practice of the people he just conquerored and set up his own religion instead, or desecrated their religious practice thinking it would make it null and void. Of course Antiochus Epiphanes did not know God, so obviously that would be impossible to do. In fact, if you read Josephus, the Pharisees complained to Pilate when he arrived as governor that he was setting up an AoD in Jerusalem, and they asked him to remove it. He complied. Some even argue that the Roman armies themselves are considered an AoD.

For the prophecy to happen as Daniel described, there has to be a literal temple of God in Jerusalem. No human can build that temple. That temple will be set up by Jesus when He returns at the 6th Seal. That temple will be used by Jesus and the 144k during the Trumpets and Thunders, the time of Jacob's trouble. That temple may be handed over to Satan by Jesus during the days of the 7th Trumpet. That is the point Gabriel made in Daniel 9:27.

Daniel does not write about days in Daniel 9 as in 1260 or 1290. That is mentioned here: Daniel 8:9-14

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

That was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes. That is referenced again in Daniel 12:11-13

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Neither of these two mentions is the one Gabriel gives in Daniel 9:27.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Even if Antiochus Epiphanes made a 7 year treaty with the Jews, it does not mean there will be another person in the future who makes a 7 year treaty. Jesus never states there will be a 7 year treaty. John in Revelation never states a 7 year treaty. Because the Prince in Daniel 9 is not Antiochus Epiphanes, nor the Romans in the first century, nor a future godless human. The Prince in Daniel 9 is clearly described in the chapter.

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus is the Prince to come. The whole theme of the Second Coming thought process. The Second Coming is not just for the church. The Second Coming was established in Daniel 9 as part of the 70 weeks. The Second Coming is not the 70th week. Jesus the Messiah the Prince is the 70th week.

Many posters here seem to be saying the one fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes has a double fulfillment, and will happen exactly and for the same length of time, as it happened in 156BC. Or they dismiss Antiochus Epiphanes altogether, as if he is not the little Greek horn that had already occurred. Those people listening to Jesus that day knew exactly what happened with Antiochus Epiphanes. They have, to this day, celebrated Hanukkah for thousands of years. Today they may not know that it was a fulfilled prophesy of Daniel, but those in the first century did. It had only happened less than 200 years prior. It would be like celebrating the 4th of July in America. Now, 2,000 years from now, the 4th of July may be a Holiday, but no one would understand the context at all.

That is why 1900 years later many here are not understanding the context of Matthew 24, even though there is a parenthetical admonition for the reader to take the time and understand the context. Not just make things up in their head.

Many do not even have Maccabees in their Bible. Nor is that the point. The point is that we can still figure out the context.

 

[amigo de christo]

Rather odd indeed . Cause STILL JESUS pointed them back to what DANIEL had spoken of
WHEN YOU WILL SEE the AOD spoken of in DANIEL . THEN FLEE .
WHEN YOU SHALL SEE the AOD spoken of IN DANIEL , THEN FLEE .
JESUS didnt come in two hundred and BC either . HE came long after all that .
Long after .

 

[amigo de christo]

That is not the point. Daniel prophesied about Antiochus Epiphanes. You all take the already fulfilled prophesy and apply it to the future. It already happened so you cannot claim what Daniel wrote is still future.


Jesus was saying that there is a future AoD that they already knew about, that would happen some 2,000 years later.

I never said what Daniel prophesied is future. Daniel was just a point of reference Jesus was making.

Many interpret that verse claiming "they" (first century believers) literally saw the AoD in the first century. Many claim Daniel was fulfilled in 70AD. That is as wrong as claiming a future AC will sign a 7 year covenant.

You all are thinking that an AoD is only a one time event. No. Setting up an AoD was an ancient practice where the conqueror took away the religious practice of the people he just conquerored and set up his own religion instead, or desecrated their religious practice thinking it would make it null and void. Of course Antiochus Epiphanes did not know God, so obviously that would be impossible to do. In fact, if you read Josephus, the Pharisees complained to Pilate when he arrived as governor that he was setting up an AoD in Jerusalem, and they asked him to remove it. He complied. Some even argue that the Roman armies themselves are considered an AoD.

For the prophecy to happen as Daniel described, there has to be a literal temple of God in Jerusalem. No human can build that temple. That temple will be set up by Jesus when He returns at the 6th Seal. That temple will be used by Jesus and the 144k during the Trumpets and Thunders, the time of Jacob's trouble. That temple may be handed over to Satan by Jesus during the days of the 7th Trumpet. That is the point Gabriel made in Daniel 9:27.

Daniel does not write about days in Daniel 9 as in 1260 or 1290. That is mentioned here: Daniel 8:9-14

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

That was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes. That is referenced again in Daniel 12:11-13

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Neither of these two mentions is the one Gabriel gives in Daniel 9:27.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Even if Antiochus Epiphanes made a 7 year treaty with the Jews, it does not mean there will be another person in the future who makes a 7 year treaty. Jesus never states there will be a 7 year treaty. John in Revelation never states a 7 year treaty. Because the Prince in Daniel 9 is not Antiochus Epiphanes, nor the Romans in the first century, nor a future godless human. The Prince in Daniel 9 is clearly described in the chapter.

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus is the Prince to come. The whole theme of the Second Coming thought process. The Second Coming is not just for the church. The Second Coming was established in Daniel 9 as part of the 70 weeks. The Second Coming is not the 70th week. Jesus the Messiah the Prince is the 70th week.

Many posters here seem to be saying the one fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes has a double fulfillment, and will happen exactly and for the same length of time, as it happened in 156BC. Or they dismiss Antiochus Epiphanes altogether, as if he is not the little Greek horn that had already occurred. Those people listening to Jesus that day knew exactly what happened with Antiochus Epiphanes. They have, to this day, celebrated Hanukkah for thousands of years. Today they may not know that it was a fulfilled prophesy of Daniel, but those in the first century did. It had only happened less than 200 years prior. It would be like celebrating the 4th of July in America. Now, 2,000 years from now, the 4th of July may be a Holiday, but no one would understand the context at all.

That is why 1900 years later many here are not understanding the context of Matthew 24, even though there is a parenthetical admonition for the reader to take the time and understand the context. Not just make things up in their head.

Many do not even have Maccabees in their Bible. Nor is that the point. The point is that we can still figure out the context.

As far as an allegory or double fullfillment , that MIGHT be true .
ME no follow the pre trib , mid or post trib . But for more info
i suggest we read both paul and john . Paul spoke of this event , YET ALSO SAID THE WORKER OF INQUITY IS ALREADY AT WORK
JOHN made mention of the ANTI CHRIST , then later says , YE have heard that it should come , EVEN NOW IS IT IN THE WORLD .
THAT MEANS SOMETHING HUGE .
And if we would but examine the book of revelation , NOT THROUGH THE LENS OF THE TRIBERS doctrine
But rather just for ourselves , WE MIGHT SEE SOMETHING REAL HUGE .
Too many are waiting on a pre trib hollywood style anti christ . MY ADVICE , LOOK AROUND
THINGS ARE MASSIVELY UNFOLDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF US . WE MUCH FARTHER ALONG that folks realize .
THE WORLD and her religoins , THEY ARE BEING GATHERED AS ONE , RIGHT UNTO THE VERY DAY OF ARMEGEDDON .
SO allow me some parting words . LOOK UP , CAUSE THE COMING OF KING JESUS IS MUCH CLOSER
than most folks would even dream it to be . SPIRITS are already at work , THEY HAVE BEEN .
THE SIGNS are VERY CLEAR as to what days these be . VERY CLEAR , if one follows CHRIST , THEY WILL SEE THE FOREST
if not they will see at most only billions of trees , BUT THE FOREST THEY WILL NOT DISCERN .

 

[dad]

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

This is the one those on the earth at the 7th Trumpet need to worry about.

"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Pretty sure Satan is allowed to kill any one whom he can find. Fleeing would be most appropriate.

The 144,000 and the two witnesses are protected by God.

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Sounds like Israel can escape, leave the earth. Who are left, now? The ones beheaded. The contention is that one will need to flee from Satan, but to do what? Choose between taking the mark or chopping one's head off. What verse claims those who hide for 42 months are blessed? Are you inserting the vials into Daniel 12? If you don't insert the Trumpets into Daniel as you claim, how do you turn around and insert the vials into Daniel, contradicting your own argument?

The wilderness is space? Where did you dig that one up?

Only this:

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."



I pointed out that Daniel could not see past the Cross, but only saw a resurrection.

Gabriel saw and informed Daniel. The cross is ancient history. Gabriel told Daniel things right till the end.

The point has been made that even at the start of the Millennium many still wait in the dust for another 1,000 years. Most don't even accept a resurrection at the Cross. Only a spiritual second birth. Then they call that a resurrection. Many even claim that Michael mentioned in Daniel 12 happened at the Cross, but not a resurrection. Go figure that one out.

The final great throne judgment is at the end of the 1000 years. The judgment or rewards of believers is when Jesus takes us up in the air.
The judgment of nations is when Jesus returns to the earth. So, for the Rapture we could say that since the dead in Christ will all rise up, that many that sleep in the dust will rise up. Those believers that have done well will shine brightly. Other believers not so much. If we include the final judgment then we could look at people condemned to leave the presence of God in the lake of fire, so I suppose some could say that is everlasting shame and contempt. However I think some scholars interpret the verse as believers being ashamed they didn't live right and etc. Any way we look at it though, that was not fulfilled thousands of years ago!

In my opinion he was talking about the GWT. Even then some will be given an opportunity to repent and receive eternal life, but only those in sheol prior to the Second Coming, and the 4th Seal when Death is introduced along side of sheol. But it was a mystery to Daniel and still is a mystery in this verse:

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The mystery is still a mystery. When that last trumpet sounds, you can check your opinions on whether you guessed the mystery right or not. Until then, don't worry about it. Your guess here seems to be that people who were unsaved before the return of Jesus to earth do not get an 'opportunity' to repent. Yet somehow, the unsaved dead after the 1000 years do. It seems to me that the books are opened and they were already written. Not sure how you insert a rewrite in there for some unsaved?

Where does John explain this mystery? He only declares it is over. That is why I said Daniel sees both the Cross and the GWT, but cannot give us a distinction, so many just claim there is only one single resurrection,

Hey we could add the return of Jesus and the pre tribulation rapture to that I suppose if you are claiming they saw it all as one event back then. Basically you are saying that they conflated events.

and still cannot see that Lazarus was the first one to rise out of the dust.

Lazarus did not get resurrected in an eternal body.

And Daniel never said all, he said many.

The Rapture is not for all!

After the 6th Seal, billions will go straight to Death or the LOF. No coming out of the dust for them.

We've been over that. You are conflating events. The seals are in the tribulation.

That Death is permanent removal from the Lamb's book of life. I think Daniel saw that some would be given eternal life even at the GWT. John present it in the negative:

"But the rest of the dead lived not again."

I see. Well, the context seems to be raised up to face their judgment. Not that they had salvation and eternal life.

Well they were caught up when Christ ascended on Sunday morning. Not sure how "we" fit into that ascension. I already stated that all the OT already entered Paradise bodily. Call that a rapture or ascension, but they certainly are enjoying Paradise, severing God day and night in His temple.

So you are claiming that if we went to a tomb of the patriarchs, all bones would have disappeared? Seriously?

All souls are caught up when they leave this body in the dust. They have their permanent incorruptible physical body now in Paradise.

Nice story. Prove it.

Well if you find a verse that states the graves are opened at the end of the Millennium reign of Jesus let me know.

Revelation 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired-


Revelation 20:11
And I saw a great white throne-


Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

[amigo de christo]

The 144,000 and the two witnesses are protected by God.

The wilderness is space? Where did you dig that one up?



Gabriel saw and informed Daniel. The cross is ancient history. Gabriel told Daniel things right till the end.


The final great throne judgment is at the end of the 1000 years. The judgment or rewards of believers is when Jesus takes us up in the air.
The judgment of nations is when Jesus returns to the earth. So, for the Rapture we could say that since the dead in Christ will all rise up, that many that sleep in the dust will rise up. Those believers that have done well will shine brightly. Other believers not so much. If we include the final judgment then we could look at people condemned to leave the presence of God in the lake of fire, so I suppose some could say that is everlasting shame and contempt. However I think some scholars interpret the verse as believers being ashamed they didn't live right and etc. Any way we look at it though, that was not fulfilled thousands of years ago!



The mystery is still a mystery. When that last trumpet sounds, you can check your opinions on whether you guessed the mystery right or not. Until then, don't worry about it. Your guess here seems to be that people who were unsaved before the return of Jesus to earth do not get an 'opportunity' to repent. Yet somehow, the unsaved dead after the 1000 years do. It seems to me that the books are opened and they were already written. Not sure how you insert a rewrite in there for some unsaved?




Hey we could add the return of Jesus and the pre tribulation rapture to that I suppose if you are claiming they saw it all as one event back then. Basically you are saying that they conflated events.

Lazarus did not get resurrected in an eternal body.

The Rapture is not for all!



We've been over that. You are conflating events. The seals are in the tribulation.


I see. Well, the context seems to be raised up to face their judgment. Not that they had salvation and eternal life.


So you are claiming that if we went to a tomb of the patriarchs, all bones would have disappeared? Seriously?

Nice story. Prove it.


Revelation 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired-


Revelation 20:11
And I saw a great white throne-


Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

For a time the two witnesses shall indeed witness . BUT THE BEAST that came up out of the pit
WILL be allowed to kill them . dont forget that part .

 

[dad]

I quote the verses, and then you split them up, and cannot figure out these verses? The angels are loosed from the pit in the 5th Trumpet. They are cast out of heaven during the 7th Trumpet. That is the third woe:


"The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded."

"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."


The 5th Trumpet was the first woe. The angels were let out of the pit.

The 6th Trumpet was the 2nd woe. The army of Satan on the earth. Either human or still the angels.

So now we see the 7th Trumpet and the third woe. Satan on the earth. The 42 months and the AoD is the third woe, and it happens after the 7th Trumpet has started to sound.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The witnesses prophesy till the end of the Great Tribulation. They die and are raised up days later about the time when Jesus returns to earth.

Soon as Jesus returns, He takes over and all kingdoms on earth become His. The trumpet does not keep sounding for ages. In fact the moment it BEGINS to sound, it is a wrap. That is after the great tribulation, We are told how long the witnesses prophesy it matches exactly the time of the great trib.

Is Daniel 9:24 about a set time period of 70 weeks? Is that time up at the 7th Trumpet?

Yes, after the tribulation the moment the trumpet begins to sound it is finished. Everlasting righteousness and and end to transgression is here!

Did you mean to say yes instead of no? I never even claimed they blow for 3.5 years, so certainly not a thousand. They could all blow in a few months and not last long at all. You are the one who thinks they cover 7 years or whatever you call the 7 years of your alleged tribulation.

Be clear then. When you mix in the 1000 years with the seven years and have Jesus come after all that, you also mix up when stuff happens and trumpets blow.

The 7 Thunders sound prior to the 7th Trumpet and those 42 months.

After. Jesus returns at the last one.

You have 14 events between the Second Coming and the 7th Trumpet.

None actually at all. Not a one. Jesus returns at the seventh trumpet. The nations are then become all His. You conflate events. Now you are sticking a large number of events after the return of Jesus.

Then 3.5 years after the 7th Trumpet already started to sound you have the 7 vials that only cover 3.5 days between when the 2 witnesses are killed and the battle of Armageddon.

You have the 7th Seal.
Then 6 Trumpets.
Then 7 Thunders.
Then the 7th Trumpet.

That is how John wrote them down, or was told not to write them down. Do you think the 7 Thunders are not even going to happen?

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels-

The scene is in heaven, and at the same time we see a great final quake on earth.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.


Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

After that is the time Jesus destroys those that destroyed the earth.