Pay to Pray eRosary from the Vatican

[reformed1689]

No, it's a well known MYTH.
Learn the difference . . .

Oh I know the difference. Your hogwash rewritten history to protect your false church is the myth.

 

[Grailhunter]

Woops!

 

[Prayer Warrior]

So why would there be a "judgment" for the believer over how "symbols" are treated? Why is he called "guilty" in that passage?

I'm not sure I'm following you here. Are you saying you believe the bread and wine literally become human flesh and blood?

 

[Mungo]

And I'm arguing against your brainwashed catholic mind. You can ignore the truth but that is on you.

Facts: Leo authorized indulgences. Indulgences are not authorized by Scripture.

Actually if you understood what Indulgences are, and you knew scripture, you would find examples of indulgences in scripture.

 

[Mungo]

I'm not sure I'm following you here. Are you saying you believe the bread and wine literally become human flesh and blood?

There is an argument on this going on in the "The Doctrine of Purgatory thread". Two threads going way off topic.

 

[epostle]

It's the same thing. A contribution for remission of sins. That's the same thing as selling remission.

No, it isn't. It depends entirely on sincere repentance.

Here's the reality. The Pope has no authority to grant such a thing. Nowhere in Scripture is there support for indulgences.

The reality is your misunderstanding of the authority to bind and loose.

It's a false Gospel.

Nonsense. The Gospel has nothing to do with rules of conduct. You started this with a non-sequitur. You STILL refuse to explain your version of the true Gospel. You don't want reasonable discussion, you want a fist fight. You came in swinging with a lie.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

There is an argument on this going on in the "The Doctrine of Purgatory thread". Two threads going way off topic.

Sorry, Mungo. Off topic comments seem to really bother you.

The problem is I'm not posting in the other thread, and I'm trying to understand where Giuliano is coming from with his comments in this thread. If this bothers you too much, maybe you can try to ignore these off-topic comments. I can understand your aggravation with them, esp. if you're the person who starts the thread, but I'm not sure that I can stay totally on topic.

 

[epostle]

Right and the Arch Bishop just made it up out of thin air....ok.... Again, the Church didn't stop it, why? That's not a lie. That's fact.

Myth 6: A person can buy indulgences.
The Council of Trent instituted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences, and, because of prior abuses, “in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions” (Catholic Encyclopedia).
The FACT is you cannot be taught.

​

 

[reformed1689]

Actually if you understood what Indulgences are, and you knew scripture, you would find examples of indulgences in scripture.

Where?

 

[reformed1689]

“in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions” (Catholic Encyclopedia).

Yeah, notice the timeline....just saying....

 

[epostle]

It's a red herring argument you are making to distract from the main point that the church is in error and Francis, as all Popes are antichrist.

You're hilarious! You assert against a supposed red herring, and commit one in the same sentence!

 

[Philip James]

Those elements were symbolic representations, and the partaking or *eating* of Christ is spiritual.

Can you tell me how you 'spiritually' eat Jesus?

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

For 2000 years the Church has recognized that this is fullfilled in parricipating in the Eucharist.

Further, Paul makes it clear that it is both the sign and cause of our unity with one another:

The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

Peace be with you!

 

[Giuliano]

I'm not sure I'm following you here. Are you saying you believe the bread and wine literally become human flesh and blood?

No, they become the Blood and Body of Christ-- not the blood and body of Jesus the human being. He is the head of the Body of Christ, we are its members. We share in the same type of Spiritual Body and Blood. It cannot mean physical body and blood since Jesus Christ offered it to his disciples before the crucifixion.

I sometimes think of it as being like how a grape is attached to a vine. If Jesus is the Vine, we are the grapes growing on the Vine. Our spiritual bodies are being built up by being attached.

 

[Mungo]

Where?

To quote what one of your troll mates said to me:
"I'm giving you clues to help your understanding and at the same time challenging you to go deeper. Your completely opposed to doing any sort of homework. I'm not doing it for you. Until you pick up a book you'll be in the dark. But hey, just let your church spoon feed you all this garbage….."

:

 

[epostle]

Where?

Principle 1: Sin Results in Guilt and Punishment
When a person sins, he acquires certain liabilities: the liability of guilt and the liability of punishment. Scripture speaks of the former when it pictures guilt as clinging to our souls, making them discolored and unclean before God: “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool” (Isa. 1:18).

We incur not just guilt, but liability for punishment when we sin: “I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pride of the arrogant and lay low the haughtiness of the ruthless” (Is. 13:11). Judgment pertains even to the smallest sins: “For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil” (Eccl. 12:14).

Principle 2: Punishments are Both Temporal and Eternal
The Bible indicates some punishments are eternal, lasting forever, but others are temporal. Eternal punishment is mentioned in Daniel 12:2: “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

We normally focus on the eternal penalties of sin, because they are the most important, but Scripture indicates that temporal penalties are real and go back to the first sin humans committed: “To the woman he said, ‘I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children” (Gen. 3:16).

Principle 3: Temporal Penalties May Remain When a Sin is Forgiven
When someone repents, God removes his guilt (Isa. 1:18) and any eternal punishment (Rom. 5:9), but temporal penalties may remain. One passage demonstrating this is 2 Samuel 12, in which Nathan the prophet confronts David over his adultery:

“Then David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ Nathan answered David: ‘The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin; you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die’” (2 Sam. 12:13-14). God forgave David but David still had to suffer the loss of his son as well as other temporal punishments (2 Sam. 12:7-12).

Protestants realize that, although Jesus paid the price for our sins before God, he did not relieve our obligation to repair what we have done. They acknowledge that if you steal someone’s car, you have to give it back; it isn’t enough just to repent.

Protestants also admit the principle of temporal penalties for sin, in practice, when discussing death. Scripture says death entered the world through original sin (Gen. 3:22-24; Rom. 5:12). When we first come to God we are forgiven, and when we sin later we are able to be forgiven, yet that does not free us from the penalty of physical death. Even the forgiven die; a penalty remains after our sins are forgiven. This is a temporal penalty since physical death is temporary and we will be resurrected (Dan. 12:2).

Principle 4: God Blesses Some People as a Reward to Others
In Matthew 9:1-8, Jesus heals a paralytic and forgives his sins after seeing the faith of his friends. Paul also tells us that “as regards election [the Jews] are beloved for the sake of their forefathers” (Rom. 11:28).
When God blesses one person as a reward to someone else, sometimes the specific blessing he gives is a reduction of the temporal penalties to which the first person is subject. For example, God promised Abraham that, if he could find a certain number of righteous men in Sodom, he was willing to defer the city’s temporal destruction for the sake of the righteous (Gen. 18:16-33).

Principle 5: God Remits Temporal Punishments through the Church
God uses the Church when he removes temporal penalties. This is the essence of the doctrine of indulgences. Earlier we defined indulgences as “what we receive when the Church lessens the temporal penalties to which we may be subject even though our sins have been forgiven.” The members of the Church became aware of this principle through the sacrament of penance. From the beginning, acts of penance were assigned as part of the sacrament because the Church recognized that Christians must deal with temporal penalties, such as God’s discipline and the need to compensate those our sins have injured.

In the early Church, penances were sometimes severe. But the Church recognized that repentant sinners could shorten their penances by pleasing God through pious or charitable acts that expressed sorrow and a desire to make up for one’s sin.

The Church also recognized the duration of temporal punishments could be lessened through the involvement of other persons who had pleased God. Scripture tells us God gave the authority to forgive sins “to men” (Matt. 9:8) and to Christ’s ministers in particular. Jesus told them, “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20:21-23).

Christ also promised his Church the power to bind and loose on earth, saying, “Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matt. 18:18). As the context makes clear, binding and loosing cover Church discipline, and Church discipline involves administering and removing temporal penalties (such as barring from and readmitting to the sacraments).

Principle 6: God Blesses Dead Christians as a Reward to Living Christians
From the beginning the Church recognized the validity of praying for the dead so that their transition into heaven (via purgatory) might be swift and smooth. This meant praying for the lessening or removal of temporal penalties holding them back from the full glory of heaven. For this reason the Church teaches that “indulgences can always be applied to the dead by way of prayer” (Indulgentarium Doctrina 3).

The custom of praying for the dead is not restricted to the Catholic faith. In the Old Testament, Judah Maccabee finds the bodies of soldiers who died wearing superstitious amulets during one of the Lord’s battles. Judah and his men “turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out” (2 Macc. 12:42). Judah also “took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this . . . he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin” (2 Macc. 12:43, 46).

Thus, Judah not only prayed for the dead, but provided for them the then-appropriate ecclesial action for lessening temporal penalties: a sin offering. Accordingly, we may take the now-appropriate ecclesial action for lessening temporal penalties— indulgences—and apply them to the dead by way of prayer.

These six principles, which we have seen to be thoroughly biblical, are the underpinnings of indulgences. But, the question of expiation often remains. Can we expiate our sins—and what does “expiate” mean anyway?

Some criticize indulgences by saying they involve our making “expiation” for our sins, something that only Christ can do. This criticism is unfounded, and most who make it do not know what the word “expiation” means or how indulgences work.

Protestant Scripture scholar Leon Morris comments on the confusion around the word “expiate”: “[M]ost of us . . . don’t understand ‘expiation’ very well. . . . [E]xpiation is . . . making amends for a wrong.” (The Atonement [Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 1983], 151). The Wycliff Bible Encyclopedia gives a similar definition: “The basic idea of expiation has to do with reparation for a wrong, the satisfaction of the demands of justice through paying a penalty.”

Certainly when it comes to the eternal effects of our sins, only Christ can make amends or reparation. We are completely unable to do so, not only because we are finite creatures incapable of making an infinite satisfaction, but because everything we have was given to us by God. For us to try to satisfy God’s eternal justice would be like using money we had borrowed from someone to repay what we had stolen from him. This does not mean we can’t make amends or reparation for the temporal effects of our sins. If someone steals an item, he can return it. If someone damages another’s reputation, he can publicly correct the slander. These are ways in which one can make at least partial amends (expiation) for what he has done.

An excellent biblical illustration of this principle is given in Proverbs 16:6, which states: “By loving kindness and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the Lord a man avoids evil” (cf. Lev. 6:1-7; Num. 5:5-8). Here we are told that a person makes temporal atonement (though never eternal atonement, of which only Christ is capable) for his sins through acts of loving kindness and faithfulness.Primer on Indulgences

That's where. About 20 scripture citations, some having greater weight than others, supporting BIBLICAL principles, that you cannot see due to blind prejudice.

 

[Mungo]

Sorry, Mungo. Off topic comments seem to really bother you.

The problem is I'm not posting in the other thread, and I'm trying to understand where Giuliano is coming from with his comments in this thread. If this bothers you too much, maybe you can try to ignore these off-topic comments. I can understand your aggravation with them, esp. if you're the person who starts the thread, but I'm not sure that I can stay totally on topic.

Sorry I came across a bit strong. I've just given up on another forum where the threads split all over the place and the same arguments kept cropping u[p in multi threads. I used to post here a couple of years ago and I thought I'd come back. It seemed better.

I'll take a deep breath and get over it.

 

[reformed1689]

Principle 1: Sin Results in Guilt and Punishment

We agree

Principle 2: Punishments are Both Temporal and Eternal

We agree

Principle 3: Temporal Penalties May Remain When a Sin is Forgiven

We agree, with the caveat this is speaking of in the earthly life.

Principle 4: God Blesses Some People as a Reward to Others

I will grant the premise.

Principle 5: God Remits Temporal Punishments through the Church

No. Not found in Scripture.

Scripture tells us God gave the authority to forgive sins “to men” (Matt. 9:8)

How does Matthew 9:8 give man authority to forgive sins? The Son of Man (Jesus) yes. But He is God. So no, it does not grant men the authority but God already had the authority.

rinciple 6: God Blesses Dead Christians as a Reward to Living Christians
From the beginning the Church recognized the validity of praying for the dead so that their transition into heaven (via purgatory) might be swift and smooth. This meant praying for the lessening or removal of temporal penalties holding them back from the full glory of heaven. For this reason the Church teaches that “indulgences can always be applied to the dead by way of prayer” (Indulgentarium Doctrina 3).

The custom of praying for the dead is not restricted to the Catholic faith. In the Old Testament, Judah Maccabee finds the bodies of soldiers who died wearing superstitious amulets during one of the Lord’s battles. Judah and his men “turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out” (2 Macc. 12:42). Judah also “took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this . . . he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin” (2 Macc. 12:43, 46).

Sorry, The apocryphal books are not scripture.

 

[reformed1689]

To quote what one of your troll mates said to me:
"I'm giving you clues to help your understanding and at the same time challenging you to go deeper. Your completely opposed to doing any sort of homework. I'm not doing it for you. Until you pick up a book you'll be in the dark. But hey, just let your church spoon feed you all this garbage….."

:

Again, the question remains. Where are indulgences authorized in Scripture?

 

[epostle]

Matt. 16:19 – whatever Peter binds or looses on earth is bound or loosed in heaven / when the Prime Minister to the King opens, no one shuts. This “binding and loosing” authority allows the keeper of the keys to establish “halakah,” or rules of conduct for the members of the kingdom he serves.

The Hebrew term “halakah” has nothing to do with the Gospel.

Matt. 23:2-4 – the “binding and loosing” terminology used by Jesus was understood by the Jewish people. For example, Jesus said that the Pharisees “bind” heavy burdens but won’t move (“loose”) them with their fingers. Peter and the apostles have the new binding and loosing authority over the Church of the New Covenant.

What does the anti-Catholic do? He invents some nonsensical definition of a rabbinical term. D. Taylor still refuses to define true Gospel, because he knows he put his foot in his mouth.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

No, they become the Blood and Body of Christ-- not the blood and body of Jesus the human being. He is the head of the Body of Christ, we are its members. We share in the same type of Spiritual Body and Blood. It cannot mean physical body and blood since Jesus Christ offered it to his disciples before the crucifixion.

I sometimes think of it as being like how a grape is attached to a vine. If Jesus is the Vine, we are the grapes growing on the Vine. Our spiritual bodies are being built up by being attached.

Okay, so you're saying the spiritual Body with a capital "B," not the physical body. I'm not sure that I've heard this idea before, at least, not stated like this. I do believe that He is the vine and we are the branches because He said this. Just not sure how this fits with what you're saying.