Pay to Pray eRosary from the Vatican

[epostle]

So we sacrifice Christ over and over again? This is the great heresy of the Mass. Christ already finished the work and does not need sacrificed again.

Hate speech.

Wow, is this the brainwashing you have received? Not a shred of evidence? Oh brother. It is widely known that he authorized the sale of indulgences to build St. Peter's because he had emptied the church coffers. It is also known he made arrangements to split monies 50/50 with an Archh Bishop in Germany in order to pay off certain loans and build St. Peters. The fact that you deny this says everything we need to know.

We don't deny anything but your distorted caricatures.
While Pope Leo X certainly had his many faults, "SELLING of indulgences" was NOT one of them. He will never be canonized, but he fulfilled his duties as an administrator.

What the Pope authorized was the Preaching of an Indulgence all across Europe,
with all the usual attached conditions (genuine repentance, contrition, prayer for the Church and the intentions of the successor of Peter, rejection of attachment to sin),
for those who would make a charitable donation of any amount, for the rebuilding
of the decrepit St. Peter's Basilica. This you refuse to comprehend. The "good work" of donating money for the construction and upkeep of YOUR church will not go unrewarded. That is an indulgence!!! I hear that all the time from Protestant preachers like you, who constantly misrepresent and preach false caricatures. What hypocrisy!

He was not "selling" the indulgence and, contrary to the wickedest lie ever
told about this, he was definitely NOT "selling salvation", as a Presbyterian friend
once nastily characterized it. There were, however, some unscrupulous preachers, at least I have heard, who did make remarks similar to "As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a Soul
from Purgatory SPRINGS!!" Tetzel's coined phrase was never accepted by the Church, another fact you refuse to acknowledge.

Do you follow Pope Francis or not?

Again, Pope Francis is the spiritual leader of 23 rites, not just the Latin or Roman rite.
There is more than one "sense" of the prefix "Roman". It can be used as an adjective for:

• a citizen of Rome
• a rite
• a document
• a parish
  
• centrality of faith and morals
  
• a derogatory sense.

It was first used in the derogatory sense by the Anglicans in the 16th century. They wanted to retain their catholicity with a blanket term "Roman" as an insult to distinguish themselves from the historic Catholic Church. Preachers like you only use "Roman" in the derogatory sense, because that is what you have been taught. "RCC" as a blanket term for all Catholics is inaccurate and annoying. This has been explained 1000 times on this forum, but the only reason people chronically use "RCC" is that they know it is annoying. "CC" is better.
Yes, we follow Pope Francis, the same as the disciples followed Peter as chief spokesman and leader of the Church. An office without successors is not an office. There are over 70 verses indication this, not just 2 verses out of Matthew, not to mention the UNANYMOUS writings of the ECF, which you have nothing to do with.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Just read it. You asked for the document, I provided it. You were wrong.

This is an asinine claim.

If I told YOU that the Declaration of Independence stated that we all had to wear miniskirts - the onus would be on ME to prove it.
The onus is now on YOU to show me where in this document the Pope ordered the selling of Indulgences.

Until you are prepared to do that - you have LOST this argument . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

If they are in FULL COMMUNION. That means they follow every teaching. Not all protestants are in full communion with Lutherans. So no, it's not the same.

WRONG - different Liturgical Rites.
We don't practice our faith in the exact same way so it's the same thing.

YOUR insistence that ALL Catholics are "Roman" Catholics is an exercise in stupidity . . .

 

[reformed1689]

Hate speech.

No it isn't. It's a fact. Facts are not hate.

We don't deny anything but your distorted caricatures.
While Pope Leo X certainly had his many faults, "SELLING of indulgences" was NOT one of them. He will never be canonized, but he fulfilled his duties as an administrator.

I've already proven otherwise.

There were, however, some unscrupulous preachers, at least I have heard, who did make remarks similar to "As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a Soul
from Purgatory SPRINGS!!" Tetzel's coined phrase was never accepted by the Church, another fact you refuse to acknowledge.

If it was not the church wishes, why was he not stopped?

If I told YOU that the Declaration of Independence stated that we all had to wear miniskirts - the onus would be on ME to prove it.
The onus is now on YOU to show me where in this document the Pope ordered the selling of Indulgences.

Until you are prepared to do that - you have LOST this argument . . .

You simply asked for the document. I provided it.

 

[reformed1689]

WRONG - different Liturgical Rites.
We don't practice our faith in the exact same way so it's the same thing.

YOUR insistence that ALL Catholics are "Roman" Catholics is an exercise in stupidity . . .

Fine the Catholic church. If they follow the vatican they are a false church.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You simply asked for the document. I provided it.

Uhhhhhhh, NO - you didn't.
Unless you can show where the document orders the SALE of Indulgences - you have failed.

This is an idiotic conversation.
WHY would you post a document that has NOTHING to do with what you are claiming??

 

[BreadOfLife]

Fine the Catholic church. If they follow the vatican they are a false church.

Now, we're getting somewhere . . .

 

[Grailhunter]

Matronde servite il vino a colazione?

 

[reformed1689]

Uhhhhhhh, NO - you didn't.
Unless you can show where the document orders the SALE of Indulgences - you have failed.

This is an idiotic conversation.
WHY would you post a document that has NOTHING to do with what you are claiming??

We do herewith proclaim that our most holy Lord Leo X, by divine providence present Pontiff, has given and bestowed to all Christian believers of either sex who lend their helpful hand for the reconstruction of the cathedral church of St. Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, in Rome, complete indulgence as well as other graces and freedoms, which the Christian believer may obtain according to the apostolic letter dealing with this matter. . . .

Here follow the four principal graces granted in the apostolic bull. These can be obtained separately. Utmost industriousness should be exercised in order to commend each grace most emphatically to the faithful. . . .

The first grace is the complete remission of all sins. Nothing can be greater than this grace, since man, living in sin and deprived of divine grace, obtains complete forgiveness by these means and enjoys anew the grace of God. Moreover, through such forgiveness of sins the punishment which one is obliged to undergo in purgatory on account of the offence of the Divine Majesty is all remitted and the pain of purgatory is altogether done away with. And even though nothing satisfactory and worthy could be given in exchange for such a grace - since it is a gift of God and a grace beyond price - yet we decree the following rules in order that Christian believers may obtain it all the more easily:

In the first place: Everyone who is contrite in heart and has confessed with his mouth - or at least has the intention of confessing at a suitable time - shall visit the designated seven churches in which the papal coat of arms is displayed and pray in each church five devout Lord's Prayers and five Ave Marias in honor of the five wounds of our Lord Jesus Christ whereby our redemption took place, or one Miserere [Ps. 51], which psalm seems particularly appropriate to obtain forgiveness of sins. . . .

Where, however, persons are so weak that they could not easily come to such a church, their confessor or penitentiary should cause to be brought an altar to a suitable place according to his discretion. When such persons visit this place and offer their prayers near the altar or before, they shall receive the indulgence as though they had visited the seven churches.

Those on a sick bed are to be given a holy picture, before or near which they shall offer several prayers according to the decision of the confessor. Thus they shall receive the indulgence in this manner as though they had visited the seven churches. Wherever any person for a certain reason desires to be relieved of the necessity to visit said altars and churches, it may be granted him by the penitentiary. However, a larger amount will become necessary under such circumstances.

Concerning the contribution to the chest, for the building of said church of the chief of the apostles, the penitentiaries and the confessors are to ask those making confession, after having explained the full forgiveness and privilege of this indulgence: How much money or other temporal goods they would conscientiously give for such full forgiveness? This is to be done in order that afterwards they may be brought all the more easily to make a contribution. Because the conditions of men are many and diverse, it is not possible to establish a general fee. We have therefore fixed the following rates:

 

[reformed1689]

Now, we're getting somewhere . . .

It's a red herring argument you are making to distract from the main point that the church is in error and Francis, as all Popes are antichrist.

 

[epostle]

Just read it. You asked for the document, I provided it. You were wrong.

Instructio Summaria ad Subcommissarios Poenitentiarum et Confessores

Nowhere in this document is the outright selling of indulgences. A contribution is not a sale. I read it several times. You perpetuate 7 myths I posted that you ignored. An archbishop sent this letter to Tetzel to smarten him up. Provide the paragraph where there is an outright selling of indulgences, and not contributions. You refuse to tell the difference. Get off your anti-Catholic bandwagon.
For the FIFTH time, tell me what the true gospel is, since you claim the CC teaches a false gospel. You've been caught in a lie, and that is why you refuse to answer my question.

 

[Mungo]

Except we have.

You have diverted?
Yes, I agree with that.

 

[Mungo]

It's a red herring argument you are making to distract from the main point that the church is in error and Francis, as all Popes are antichrist.

DIVERSION ALERT !!!!

 

[BreadOfLife]

We do herewith proclaim that our most holy Lord Leo X, by divine providence present Pontiff, has given and bestowed to all Christian believers of either sex who lend their helpful hand for the reconstruction of the cathedral church of St. Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, in Rome, complete indulgence as well as other graces and freedoms, which the Christian believer may obtain according to the apostolic letter dealing with this matter. . . .

Here follow the four principal graces granted in the apostolic bull. These can be obtained separately. Utmost industriousness should be exercised in order to commend each grace most emphatically to the faithful. . . .

The first grace is the complete remission of all sins. Nothing can be greater than this grace, since man, living in sin and deprived of divine grace, obtains complete forgiveness by these means and enjoys anew the grace of God. Moreover, through such forgiveness of sins the punishment which one is obliged to undergo in purgatory on account of the offence of the Divine Majesty is all remitted and the pain of purgatory is altogether done away with. And even though nothing satisfactory and worthy could be given in exchange for such a grace - since it is a gift of God and a grace beyond price - yet we decree the following rules in order that Christian believers may obtain it all the more easily:

In the first place: Everyone who is contrite in heart and has confessed with his mouth - or at least has the intention of confessing at a suitable time - shall visit the designated seven churches in which the papal coat of arms is displayed and pray in each church five devout Lord's Prayers and five Ave Marias in honor of the five wounds of our Lord Jesus Christ whereby our redemption took place, or one Miserere [Ps. 51], which psalm seems particularly appropriate to obtain forgiveness of sins. . . .

Where, however, persons are so weak that they could not easily come to such a church, their confessor or penitentiary should cause to be brought an altar to a suitable place according to his discretion. When such persons visit this place and offer their prayers near the altar or before, they shall receive the indulgence as though they had visited the seven churches.

Those on a sick bed are to be given a holy picture, before or near which they shall offer several prayers according to the decision of the confessor. Thus they shall receive the indulgence in this manner as though they had visited the seven churches. Wherever any person for a certain reason desires to be relieved of the necessity to visit said altars and churches, it may be granted him by the penitentiary. However, a larger amount will become necessary under such circumstances.

Concerning the contribution to the chest, for the building of said church of the chief of the apostles, the penitentiaries and the confessors are to ask those making confession, after having explained the full forgiveness and privilege of this indulgence: How much money or other temporal goods they would conscientiously give for such full forgiveness? This is to be done in order that afterwards they may be brought all the more easily to make a contribution. Because the conditions of men are many and diverse, it is not possible to establish a general fee. We have therefore fixed the following rates:

You've been caught in another LIE.
This document was written by Bishop Albert of Brandenberg - and NOT the Pope.

As I told you earlier - this was an ABUSE - not an official teaching.

 

[reformed1689]

Nowhere in this document is the outright selling of indulgences. A contribution is not a sale. I read it several times. You perpetuate 7 myths I posted that you ignored. An archbishop sent this letter to Tetzel to smarten him up. Provide the paragraph where there is an outright selling of indulgences, and not contributions. You refuse to tell the difference. Get off your anti-Catholic bandwagon.
For the FIFTH time, tell me what the true gospel is, since you claim the CC teaches a false gospel. You've been caught in a lie, and that is why you refuse to answer my question.

It's the same thing. A contribution for remission of sins. That's the same thing as selling remission. Here's the reality. The Pope has no authority to grant such a thing. Nowhere in Scripture is there support for indulgences. It's a false Gospel.

 

[reformed1689]

You've been caught in another LIE.
This document was written by Bishop Albert of Brandenberg - and NOT the Pope.

As I told you earlier - this was an ABUSE - not an official teaching.

Right and the Arch Bishop just made it up out of thin air....ok.... Again, the Church didn't stop it, why? That's not a lie. That's fact.

 

[reformed1689]

You've been caught in another LIE.
This document was written by Bishop Albert of Brandenberg - and NOT the Pope.

As I told you earlier - this was an ABUSE - not an official teaching.

I've been caught in no lie. But nice ad hominem to distract from the real issues.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It's a red herring argument you are making to distract from the main point that the church is in error and Francis, as all Popes are antichrist.

No, I'm correcting your obstinate ignorance.

You argue from false premises.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I've been caught in no lie. But nice ad hominem to distract from the real issues.

What "real" issue??
You got caught in a LIE on a subject that YOU brought up . . .

 

[reformed1689]

No, I'm correcting your obstinate ignorance.

You argue from false premises.

And I'm arguing against your brainwashed catholic mind. You can ignore the truth but that is on you.

Facts: Leo authorized indulgences. Indulgences are not authorized by Scripture.