People and dinosaurs did not exist at the same time

[KingJ]

I am still waiting for the verifiable, observable, repeatable, scientific proof that humans and dinosaurs did not coexist.

Me thinks the wait will be a long one.

Prove it you will, believe it I shall.

Humans are here and dinosaurs aren't? If we did co-exist, it wouldn't have been for long. Of that I am certain! Being nervous of my kid going outside to play and meeting a T-rex...not happening! ;)

 

[DaDad]

I am still waiting for the verifiable, observable, repeatable, scientific proof that humans and dinosaurs did not coexist.

Me thinks the wait will be a long one.

Prove it you will, believe it I shall.

Hi CJ,

Are you proposing that you believe without seeing?



John 20:29 (KJ21)


29 Jesus said unto him, “Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed. Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.”



With Best Regards,
DaDad

 

[Suhar]

Humans are here and dinosaurs aren't? If we did co-exist, it wouldn't have been for long. Of that I am certain! Being nervous of my kid going outside to play and meeting a T-rex...not happening! ;)

Check out pictures on these sites:

http://www.dinosaurc14ages.com/dinohistory.htm

http://cryptidz.wikia.com/wiki/Pterosaurs_and_Pterodactyls_in_Cryptozoology

 

[DaDad]

Check out pictures on these sites:

http://www.dinosaurc14ages.com/dinohistory.htm

http://cryptidz.wikia.com/wiki/Pterosaurs_and_Pterodactyls_in_Cryptozoology

Here's a web page perspective on two Civil War Pterosaur pictures in which the large Pterosaur picture is presented as authentic; and the smaller Pterosaur picture is presented as a fraud -- which is introduced to discredit the authentic picture:

http://www.estremecedorbook.com/the-civil-war-pterosaur-shot-no-one-should-see-must-read/



Please note that I did "Google" both a "Professor M. Nance Darbrow from the University of Florida Paleontology Department", and a "Dr. Christian Barscuz, Anthropology Department, University of Arizona", as propose by this web page author, and I also came up empty. This would appear to invalidate the legitimacy (and claims) of the "American film & TV production company named “Haxan” [which] claims to have staged the “yellow shot” and its fake pterosaur for their TV series 'Freaky Links'”. -- For your reference, here's the web page for the apparently fraudulent "Haxan -- Freaky Links":

http://www.haxan.com/portfolio/freakylinks/WWWFRE~1.COM/FREAKO~1/TAILS_~1/THUNDE~1.HTM




But I do have to wonder about the first web page in which the author takes at least one tangent which claims an oil company conspiracy against cars that run on "water" in which one Japanese firm was referenced: http://www.genepax.com/


With Best Regards,
DaDad

 

[River Jordan]

If humans co-existed with dinosaurs, then we would see human remains and artifacts mixed in with dinosaur fossils all the time. Plus, if dinosaurs were killed in a global flood, then they should be mixed in with modern organisms, like T-rex with elephants, pterosaurs with eagles, velociraptors with ostriches, archaeopteryx with turkeys and so on.

But we don't.

 

[DaDad]

If humans co-existed with dinosaurs, then we would see human remains and artifacts mixed in with dinosaur fossils all the time. Plus, if dinosaurs were killed in a global flood, then they should be mixed in with modern organisms, like T-rex with elephants, pterosaurs with eagles, velociraptors with ostriches, archaeopteryx with turkeys and so on.

But we don't.

Anthropology records that mixture:


http://www.icr.org/article/dinosaur-fossil-wasnt-supposed-be-there/

Dinosaur Fossil 'Wasn't Supposed to Be There'

by Brian Thomas, M.S.
...
Medical doctor Carl Werner actually used fossil-related criteria as a test for evolution.2 He reasoned that if the evolutionary story were true and that dinosaurs lived in a unique "Age of Reptiles," and if everyday natural processes were responsible for their fossilization, then no fossils of creatures from other "ages"—for example, creatures that had not yet evolved—should be mixed up with dinosaur fossils.
But Werner found that a fossil mixture of very different kinds was typical. He told Creation magazine:

Paleontologists have found 432 mammal species in the dinosaur layers….But where are these fossils? We visited 60 museums but did not see a single complete mammal skeleton from the dinosaur layers displayed at any of these museums.3

Werner also learned that dinosaur-containing rock layers have "fossilized examples from every major invertebrate animal phylum living today," and that dinosaurs were mixed in with varieties of fish, amphibians, "parrots, owls, penguins, ducks, loons, albatross, cormorants, sandpipers, avocets, etc."3 If museums displayed these real fossils instead of adorning dinosaur dioramas with feathers, then the evolutionary story that "dinosaurs evolved into birds" would be quickly seen as the fiction that it is.4
There are many other examples of land-dwelling dinosaur fossils mixed with sea creatures.5 This kind of evidence is to be expected if a world-destroying flood was responsible for the bulk of the world's fossils, dinosaur and otherwise, considering that "the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered."6



With Best Regards,
DaDad

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

But I do have to wonder about the first web page in which the author takes at least one tangent which claims an oil company conspiracy against cars that run on "water" in which one Japanese firm was referenced: http://www.genepax.com/


With Best Regards,
DaDad

"Run your car on water" is a scam ... but not illegal because they (rightfully) claim the principle used is running electricity thru water to produce hydrogen (true) ....

Trouble is the amount of energy produced by the "kit" is equivalent to hitching a butterfly to your car to improve mileage.

Furthermore .... the electricity used to "make the hydrogen" comes from the car engine charging system anyway .... so there is no net gain ..... actually it is a net loss .


Years ago there was a similar "platinum injector kit" thousands of people installed on their cars ... what a farce.

Factory built cars use platinum in the catalytic converter (exhaust system) in order to burn the final pollutants coming from the engine ... they have done so for years and it works quite well

So some scammer came along with the idea to "inject" the platinum solution into the fuel system so that all the fuel burns inside the engine .... instead of afterwards in the exhaust ... so mileage should increase .... right ?? .... sounds straight forward

The reality is that the kit they sold contained plain ethanol .... that had a bar of platinum passed through it .... so in theory they were not breaking any advertising rules.

The minute somebody starts talking about "big oil company conspiracies" ... they are setting you up for a scam or brainwash.

 

[River Jordan]

But Werner found that a fossil mixture of very different kinds was typical. He told Creation magazine:

Paleontologists have found 432 mammal species in the dinosaur layers….But where are these fossils? We visited 60 museums but did not see a single complete mammal skeleton from the dinosaur layers displayed at any of these museums.3

I don't understand the point here. Mammals and dinosaurs co-existed. The question at hand is whether humans and dinosaurs co-existed.

Werner also learned that dinosaur-containing rock layers have "fossilized examples from every major invertebrate animal phylum living today," and that dinosaurs were mixed in with varieties of fish, amphibians, "parrots, owls, penguins, ducks, loons, albatross, cormorants, sandpipers, avocets, etc."3

That citation takes you to another ICR article that merely states that these things were found, yet offers no additional supporting evidence. The only other citation it gives is to "Mammals from the Age of Dinosaurs: Origins, Evolution, and Structure", which makes no mention of those specific organisms. So this claim is what it is...something someone wrote in an internet article.

Again, where are the human remains and artifacts with dinosaur fossils? If the two coexisted, such a mixture should be everywhere.

 

[DaDad]

Hi RJ,

... Plus, if dinosaurs were killed in a global flood, then they should be mixed in with modern organisms, like T-rex with elephants, pterosaurs with eagles, velociraptors with ostriches, archaeopteryx with turkeys and so on.

... This was the response previously provided.

Again, where are the human remains and artifacts with dinosaur fossils? If the two coexisted, such a mixture should be everywhere.

Here's an article on the human/dinosaur association:



http://apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=9&article=4664

Have Dinosaur and Human Fossils Been Found Together? by Eric Lyons, M. Min.

After some rationalization

, the article offers this conclusion:

It may be that dinosaur and human fossils are never found together. But, whether they are or not, the evidence for the coexistence of humans and dinosaurs at one time in the past is undeniable to the unbiased truth seeker (see Lyons and Butt, 2008). Indeed, there is a mountain of biblical, historical, and physical evidence which indicates that dinosaurs and humans once walked this Earth at the same time.


With Best Regards,
DaDad

 

[River Jordan]

So that's a "No, human remains and artifacts are never found with dinosaur fossils".

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Again, where are the human remains and artifacts with dinosaur fossils? If the two coexisted, such a mixture should be everywhere.

Using that same analogy we should be able to find all the transitional fossils showing how racoons became humans

 

[UppsalaDragby]

So that's a "No, human remains and artifacts are never found with dinosaur fossils".

I think your argument presupposes that the fossilisation of humans and dinosaurs occured over a long period of time, rather than during the flood. The only human remains and artifacts that would be found with dinosaur fossils would be from that time only - not those that have remained throughout all human history.

This article might provide some interesting answers to these kinds of questions:

http://apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=9&article=4664

 

[snr5557]

I think your argument presupposes that the fossilisation of humans and dinosaurs occured over a long period of time, rather than during the flood. The only human remains and artifacts that would be found with dinosaur fossils would be from that time only - not those that have remained throughout all human history.

This article might provide some interesting answers to these kinds of questions:

http://apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=9&article=4664

But wouldn't they still be together "from that time"? Regardless of the actual time frame, if they coexisted they would be found together wouldn't they?

 

[DaDad]

So that's a "No, human remains and artifacts are never found with dinosaur fossils".

First of all, you questioned why "prehistoric" creatures are not found with "modern" creatures. Did the article resolve that query?

Secondly, you misrepresent the position of the Apologetics article. It did not say that they "are never found", but simply that they "It may be that [they] are never be found [together]".


Given that dinosaur and modern creature fossils are found together, can you perceive that man and modern creatures are in the same era? I.e., A=B (dinosaurs & mammals coexist); B=C (mammals & man coexist); therefore A=C (dinosaurs & man coexist)?


With Best Regards,
DaDad

 

[River Jordan]

Using that same analogy we should be able to find all the transitional fossils showing how racoons became humans

That might be a good point if you can show me any scientist claiming that raccoons became humans. If you can't, you're committing the fallacy of argument via straw man.

I think your argument presupposes that the fossilisation of humans and dinosaurs occured over a long period of time, rather than during the flood. The only human remains and artifacts that would be found with dinosaur fossils would be from that time only - not those that have remained throughout all human history.

This article might provide some interesting answers to these kinds of questions:

http://apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=9&article=4664

The young-earth creationist positions is that humans and dinosaurs have co-existed since the creation week. Therefore it must be that if dinosaur remains have fossilized since then, so to will have the remains of humans who lived alongside them. Now, if you're going to argue that dinosaurs pre-dated humans by very long periods of time (millions of years), that's a different topic.

First of all, you questioned why "prehistoric" creatures are not found with "modern" creatures. Did the article resolve that query?

Not at all. The only verifiable statement made in the article was that mammal fossils are found with dinosaur fossils. Since no one is disputing that, it's irrelevant. The statements of actual modern taxa in those strata were completely unsourced and thus are exactly what they are...an unsubstantiated claim on a website.

Secondly, you misrepresent the position of the Apologetics article. It did not say that they "are never found", but simply that they "It may be that [they] are never be found [together]".

If they are found together, then please show where.

Given that dinosaur and modern creature fossils are found together, can you perceive that man and modern creatures are in the same era? I.e., A=B (dinosaurs & mammals coexist); B=C (mammals & man coexist); therefore A=C (dinosaurs & man coexist)?

Except your first given hasn't been shown to be true.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

The young-earth creationist positions is that humans and dinosaurs have co-existed since the creation week. Therefore it must be that if dinosaur remains have fossilized since then, so to will have the remains of humans who lived alongside them. Now, if you're going to argue that dinosaurs pre-dated humans by very long periods of time (millions of years), that's a different topic.

You make it sound as though you believe dinosaures and humans have been fossilizing since the creation week, as though it is an ongoing process. What do you base that assumption on?

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

That might be a good point if you can show me any scientist claiming that raccoons became humans. If you can't, you're committing the fallacy of argument via straw man.

Nice try.

The "fallacy" comes from someone other than me.

Please don't blame me for what the evolutionists say.

Go back a year or so ago ...... a small fossilized foot of a rodent , approximately the size of a raccoon was found and it was portrayed as an AHA moment by the evolutionists .... they said they had found a missing link .

WHY ???? ... because instead of a claw it appeared to have what looked like a fingernail .

AHA ... they said .... some day that raccoon must have evolved to be a human because it already has a fingernail.

Do you believe that raccoon evolved into a human Mr Jordan ? .... I do not ..... and I would require a lot more scientific evidence before I would even dare consider it.

My scientific standards are very rigorous and I require more than a single fingernail.

 

[DaDad]

The statements of actual modern taxa in those strata were completely unsourced and thus are exactly what they are...an unsubstantiated claim on a website.

I would propose you re-examine the article:


http://www.icr.org/article/dinosaur-fossil-wasnt-supposed-be-there/

But Werner found that a fossil mixture of very different kinds was typical. He told Creation magazine:

Paleontologists have found 432 mammal species in the dinosaur layers….But where are these fossils? We visited 60 museums but did not see a single complete mammal skeleton from the dinosaur layers displayed at any of these museums.3

1. Gordon, J. Rare dinosaur found in Canada's oil sands. Reuters, March 25, 2011.
2. Werner, C. 2008. Living Fossils. Evolution: The Grand Experiment, vol. 2. Green Forest, AR: New Leaf Press.
3. Batten, D. 2011. Living Fossils: a powerful argument for creation. Creation. 33 (2): 22. Emphasis in original.
4. Thomas, B. Fixed Bird Thigh Nixes Dino-to-bird Development. ICR News. Posted on icr.org June 22, 2009, accessed April 13, 2011.
5. Thomas, B. Canadian 'Mega' Dinosaur Bonebed Formed by Watery Catastrophe. ICR News. Posted on icr.org July 13, 2010, accessed April 6, 2011.
6. Genesis 7:19.

For further evidence

http://creation.com/images/pdfs/cabook/chapter15.pdf:

Human fossils have been found, hundreds of them, but generally in deposits which most creationists would think were post-Flood (e.g. buried in caves during the post-Flood Ice Age—see Chapter 16). However, in at least one case, human bones have been found in ‘older’ strata.11 Unfortunately, the lack of detailed documentation associated with their removal makes it impossible to say with certainty that they were not the result of subsequent intrusive burial, although nothing we know of suggests they were.


11. Two human skeletons in a copper mine in Moab, Utah, in the (Cretaceous) Dakota Sandstone, which is supposed to be ‘dinosaur age’. C.L. Burdick, 1973, Discovery of human skeletons in Cretaceous formation (Moab, Utah). Creation Research Society Quarterly 10(2):109–10.



Good Luck,
DaDad

 

[River Jordan]

You make it sound as though you believe dinosaures and humans have been fossilizing since the creation week, as though it is an ongoing process. What do you base that assumption on?

I'm not sure what you mean. I'm simply taking the young-earth creationist position that dinosaurs and humans have co-existed since the creation week some 6,000-10,000 years ago, and drawing the obvious conclusion that since we have fossilized dinosaur remains, then we should also have fossilized human remains, and all in the same geologic strata.

Nice try.

The "fallacy" comes from someone other than me.

Please don't blame me for what the evolutionists say.

Go back a year or so ago ...... a small fossilized foot of a rodent , approximately the size of a raccoon was found and it was portrayed as an AHA moment by the evolutionists .... they said they had found a missing link .

That's very different than "raccoon became humans", which was your initial claim. You do understand the difference between "the size of a raccoon" and "is a raccoon", don't you?

Do you believe that raccoon evolved into a human Mr Jordan ? .... I do not ..... and I would require a lot more scientific evidence before I would even dare consider it.

Of course not. But you're either deliberately misrepresenting what the scientists presented, or you're not very knowledgeable on the subject.

I would propose you re-examine the article:


http://www.icr.org/article/dinosaur-fossil-wasnt-supposed-be-there/

But Werner found that a fossil mixture of very different kinds was typical. He told Creation magazine:

Paleontologists have found 432 mammal species in the dinosaur layers….But where are these fossils? We visited 60 museums but did not see a single complete mammal skeleton from the dinosaur layers displayed at any of these museums.3

1. Gordon, J. Rare dinosaur found in Canada's oil sands. Reuters, March 25, 2011.
2. Werner, C. 2008. Living Fossils. Evolution: The Grand Experiment, vol. 2. Green Forest, AR: New Leaf Press.
3. Batten, D. 2011. Living Fossils: a powerful argument for creation. Creation. 33 (2): 22. Emphasis in original.
4. Thomas, B. Fixed Bird Thigh Nixes Dino-to-bird Development. ICR News. Posted on icr.org June 22, 2009, accessed April 13, 2011.
5. Thomas, B. Canadian 'Mega' Dinosaur Bonebed Formed by Watery Catastrophe. ICR News. Posted on icr.org July 13, 2010, accessed April 6, 2011.
6. Genesis 7:19.

It would seem you have all the evidence (or lack thereof) you need to form your opinion.

I'm not sure what you think that demonstrates. Again, no one is disputing that mammals and dinosaurs co-existed. It's a commonly accepted scientific position. In fact, the split between mammals and reptiles occurred before the evolution of dinosaurs.

As far as ICR's statement, I wonder if they're playing a bit fast and loose with their wording here...

"Paleontologists have found 432 mammal species in the dinosaur layers….But where are these fossils? We visited 60 museums but did not see a single complete mammal skeleton from the dinosaur layers displayed at any of these museums."

Notice the switch there? They went from "they found fossils of mammal species" to "but there aren't any complete mammal skeletons on display". You do understand there's a difference between having a fossil of something and having an actual complete fossil of it, don't you?

 

[UppsalaDragby]

I'm not sure what you mean. I'm simply taking the young-earth creationist position that dinosaurs and humans have co-existed since the creation week some 6,000-10,000 years ago, and drawing the obvious conclusion that since we have fossilized dinosaur remains, then we should also have fossilized human remains, and all in the same geologic strata.

What you originally suggested was not that humans and dinosaurs should be found in the same strata, but that we should find "human remains and artifacts mixed in with dinosaur fossils all the time".

The article I posted, which I doubt you even read, deals with the rarity of such fossils and subsequently the likelyhood that they should be found in the same strata. For example, if absence of fossils in a particular strata proves that they did not live during that "time" then how do you explain the coelacanth? It does not appear in several layers of strata and yet lives today.