People say you can not lose faith, God can't lose you, is that true?

[MatthewG]

Ephesians 2:8-10​

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King James Version​

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8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

I do not believe an unsaved person has a free will and believers are predestined by God. that however is a different topic for a different thread.

Hello Ronald,

Thank you for sharing your opinion here, and what you believe about predestined by God, and that an unsaved person doesn't have a free will,

All in good faith,
Matthew

 

[DJT_47]

Absolutely not true. Read tge Hebrew letter.

 

[MatthewG]

Absolutely not true. Read tge Hebrew letter.

Hello DJT_47,

what is it you are resounding to be not true?

In love,
Matthew

 

[DJT_47]

Hello DJT_47,

what is it you are resounding to be not true?

In love,
Matthew

That you cannot lose faith. Read Hebrews and the warnings therein, cautioning them not to backslide falling into unbelief and returning to their old beliefs

 

[MatthewG]

That you cannot lose faith. Read Hebrews and the warnings therein, cautioning them not to backslide falling into unbelief and returning to their old beliefs

Okay DJT_47,

Thank you for sharing,

In love,
Matthew

 

[gpresdo]

That you cannot lose faith. Read Hebrews and the warnings therein, cautioning them not to backslide falling into unbelief and returning to their old beliefs

Your point is important. The Bible gives us many reasons of notice about loosing our born again status.

Beware.

 

[Gottservant]

Hello to you and welcome,

[...]

From my perspective, just claiming Jesus, doesn't mean anything. Just claiming faith doesn't mean anything, without works of love.

However ... what does the bible say?

Love to you,
Matthew

There's a difference between having faith and securing it. God chooses you, and you start to change (from the heart) to the point you are inspired to work, the work in turn justifies you and receiving inspiration back, you confirm your faith with God confirming His instead of the person who you were.

So can the person you become, go back to the person you were? That's like saying can the humvee go back to the volkswagon beetle - you are not identifying the faith by the difference God has made. If you are in the humvee you have got the keys to the humvee, those keys won't work in a volkswagon beetle. Is God being rude (by insisting that you drive the humvee)? No, you knew the volkswagon would stop being useable when you made the switch, that's the leap of faith you made! You let the volkswagon fall out of use, when you started to drive the humvee - there's no point in going back. Does that mean you will always be inspired to drive the humvee? No, sometimes you will just get tired of driving, but do you throw the keys to the humvee away, just because you are not always driving it? No! So it is that even God does not pay attention to His Children all the time, that doesn't mean He loves them any less!

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

The Jews are God's chosen people. Jesus's relation to them as a people is different than you or I. All Israel will be saved.

Romans 11:26-27 -
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

much misunderstood words of Paul. Every single Jew will NOT be saved, ONLY those who accept Jesus as their Messiah. Millions of Jews have died over the centuries, who never believed in this.

 

[Rockerduck]

much misunderstood words of Paul. Every single Jew will NOT be saved, ONLY those who accept Jesus as their Messiah. Millions of Jews have died over the centuries, who never believed in this.

You are not an apostle and you were not chosen by Jesus to preach the gospel to the gentiles. Only the apostle Paul was. The Apostle Paul received revelations from Christ Himself.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

You are not an apostle and you were not chosen by Jesus to preach the gospel to the gentiles. Only the apostle Paul was. The Apostle Paul received revelations from Christ Himself.

I do NOT make the Bible say what I want it to!

 

[Rockerduck]

I do NOT make the Bible say what I want it to!

Then don't imply that God can't do anything unimaginable. His ways are higher than ours. He is infinitely smarter than us. God's way is right and justified in all He does. If God says it will happen. it will.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Then don't imply that God can't do anything unimaginable. His ways are higher than ours. He is infinitely smarter than us. God's way is right and justified in all He does. If God says it will happen. it will.

are there ANY Jews who are in hell, or does hell only have Gentiles?

 

[mailmandan]

That you cannot lose faith. Read Hebrews and the warnings therein, cautioning them not to backslide falling into unbelief and returning to their old beliefs

Those verses in Hebrews which "on the surface" appear to teach what you are saying don't match your eisegesis once read in context.

Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. NOT later destroyed those who stopped believing, but DID NOT BELIEVE.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have partaken in Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Once again, holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

Just like in Hebrews 4:1-2, For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which they heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. *Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in (Hebrews 10:39). Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there.

In Hebrews 6:9, the writer of Hebrews is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

In Hebrews 10:26, the term "sin willfully" carries the idea of deliberate intention which is habitual and stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows willful, continuous action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9)

In Hebrews 10:39, we read - But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

In Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God. The NASB reads - comes short of the grace of God.. The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. Not a loss of salvation here but a failure to obtain it and not maintain it.

 

[Rockerduck]

are there ANY Jews who are in hell, or does hell only have Gentiles?

Never been there, I couldn't say.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Those verses in Hebrews which "on the surface" appear to teach what you are saying don't match your eisegesis once read in context.

Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. NOT later destroyed those who stopped believing, but DID NOT BELIEVE.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have partaken in Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Once again, holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

Just like in Hebrews 4:1-2, For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which they heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. *Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in (Hebrews 10:39). Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there.

In Hebrews 6:9, the writer of Hebrews is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

In Hebrews 10:26, the term "sin willfully" carries the idea of deliberate intention which is habitual and stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows willful, continuous action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9)

In Hebrews 10:39, we read - But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

In Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God. The NASB reads - comes short of the grace of God.. The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. Not a loss of salvation here but a failure to obtain it and not maintain it.

Hebrews 10 in context

28 A man that hath set at nought Moses’ law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"

Notice that those in this passage, are "sanctified" by the blood of Jesus Christ, which can never refer to anyone who is not saved!

Also, it is very clear that these are described as "His people", ONLY for those who are "saved"

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Never been there, I couldn't say.

there are MILLIONS of Jews who never accepted Jesus as The Christ, and could never be saved!

 

[face2face]

God chose me, I didn't choose Him. I had nothing to do with it. Jesus literally touched me, imputed salvation to me. He chose me. Halleluiah amen, and thank you Jesus.

You mean righteousness yeah?

 

[Stumpmaster]

So can the person you become, go back to the person you were?

It's called backsliding.

(Jer 8:4) "Moreover you shall say to them, 'Thus says the LORD: "Will they fall and not rise? Will one turn away and not return?
(Jer 8:5) Why has this people slidden back, Jerusalem, in a perpetual backsliding? They hold fast to deceit, They refuse to return.
(Jer 8:6) I listened and heard, But they do not speak aright. No man repented of his wickedness, Saying, 'What have I done?' Everyone turned to his own course, As the horse rushes into the battle.

(2Pe 2:20) For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
(2Pe 2:21) For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
(2Pe 2:22) But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A DOG RETURNS TO HIS OWN VOMIT," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

 

[mailmandan]

Hebrews 10 in context

28 A man that hath set at nought Moses’ law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"

Notice that those in this passage, are "sanctified" by the blood of Jesus Christ, which can never refer to anyone who is not saved!

Also, it is very clear that these are described as "His people", ONLY for those who are "saved"

If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) So in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read - WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has PERFECTED FOR ALL TIME those who are SANCTIFIED. To go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here. Context is important.

The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't always necessarily refer to salvation.

Strong's Concordance
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.

Strong's Greek: 37. ἁγιάζω (hagiazó) -- to make holy, consecrate, sanctify

*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse (and by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So, the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the seventh day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), Moses saved the people after coming down off the mountain (Exodus 19:14), the priests and the Levites saved themselves (1 Chronicles 15:14), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36), the Son saved Himself (John 17:19) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to those who were not saved: But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Again, those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So, after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received and trampling underfoot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

 

[mailmandan]

It's called backsliding.

(Jer 8:4) "Moreover you shall say to them, 'Thus says the LORD: "Will they fall and not rise? Will one turn away and not return?
(Jer 8:5) Why has this people slidden back, Jerusalem, in a perpetual backsliding? They hold fast to deceit, They refuse to return.
(Jer 8:6) I listened and heard, But they do not speak aright. No man repented of his wickedness, Saying, 'What have I done?' Everyone turned to his own course, As the horse rushes into the battle.

Jerusalem backsliding doesn't change this:

Psalm 37:28 -
For the Lord loves justice,
And does not forsake His saints;
They are preserved forever,
But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

(2Pe 2:20) For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
(2Pe 2:21) For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
(2Pe 2:22) But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A DOG RETURNS TO HIS OWN VOMIT," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) and have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.*

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside. Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example.