Perpetual virginity of Mary!

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Eternally Grateful

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You provide no scriptural support for these assertions you keep making.

And I did prove my point with plenty of scriptural support - unlike you.
Lol I gave scripture I just did not post the passages if you knew the word you would have understood the scripture I posted

that’s why I paraphrase. To weed out people who screen how they gave scripture but really do not know it
 
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theefaith

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Rev 12 is a historical account of isreal (the woman) who gave birth to Jesus. And how Satan will go after the woman in the last days by Jesus will
Protect her so Satan turns his wrath on her offspring (the gentile believers)

no you did not prove your point you gave me your opinion and I can not agree

and pagan beliefs which you follow. Well I hope you get the point although I deleted that aspect. Because although I believe it it did Not help in the discussion

it is gen 3:15 writ large!
Mary is the mother Jesus
Rev 12:17 Her spiritual children keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus
 

Mungo

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Lol I gave scripture I just did not post the passages if you knew the word you would have understood the scripture I posted

that’s why I paraphrase. To weed out people who screen how they gave scripture but really do not know it

Giving a vague paraphrase of an unidentified scripture is not quoting scripture.
You just have no support for your assertions and opinions.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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If you talked about my mother in front of me with the same disrespectful tone you talk about Jesus' mother, I would justifiably punch you in the face. The Dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary highlights the uniqueness and sanctity of the Incarnation, not Mary as a person apart from that. That's why you are forced to unbiblically isolate Mary from Jesus, and could care less about what has always been believed.

Yes I believe you would probably be a violent person. Most people don't like being told their wrong, especially about the things pertaining to God and his Word. Look how the people treated Jesus. It's not anybody fault but your own for not accepting the truth. What you're saying about Mary isn't Biblical.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Firstborn does not mean onlyborn.

For the ancient Jews firstborn meant the child that opened the womb (Ex. 13:2; Num. 3:12). Under the Mosaic Law, it was the "first-born" son that was to be sanctified (Ex. 34:20). Did this mean the parents had to wait until a second son was born before they could call their first the "first-born"? Hardly. The first male child of a marriage was termed the "first-born" even if he turned out to be the only child of the marriage.

Moreover to be the ‘first-born’ was a very important title in that culture, since among other things, it implied the person would receive two thirds of the inheritance. It does not refer only to the fact of being the first one to be born, since the older son, even if the only one would be called ‘first-born’. Heb 1:6 is a reference to God sending his first-born Son into the world. Who would be others sent by God with the same dignity as Jesus?

‘First-born’ refers to a privilege, without having to have had other sons or children. If the ‘first-born’ were at the same time the ‘only-born’, the first title would count for more.



The word until (or till) denotes a point in time up to which some action occurred. It does not mean that the action changed, only that there was something significant about that point in time. That point in time may be significant for reason other than a change in the action. What happened after that may be explicitly stated or may be inferred from the context, or may just be left unknown. To claim it always means the action changes is not valid and leads to absurdities.

Mt 1:25 cannot be used to prove that Mary had a sexual relationship with Joseph. To infer it is to claim what has yet to be proved.

Consider this line: "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death" (2 Sam. 6:23).
Are we to assume therefore she had children after her death?

“There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived seven years with her husband after her marriage, and then as a widow until she was eighty-four.” Lk 2:36-37).
Does that imply she got married at the age of 84?

Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching.(1Tim 4:13)
After Paul arrives will Timothy stop reading, exhortation and teaching?



The first point is that there are different kinds of brothers (and sisters) - full blood brothers, half brothers, adoptive brothers. If a man and woman marry and both have children by a previous marriage they will be regarded as brothers and sisters even though they have no genetic relationship. The actual relationship of these “brothers” to Jesus cannot be established unless a genealogy is given, and it is not.

Secondly the word brother can be used in a very loose sense. In Aramaic there is no word for cousin and the word for brother (aha) would include cousin or even nephew. Whilst Greek does include a word for cousin but it is quite possible to translators/writers just used the Greek adelphos to replace the Aramaic aha. Moreover the Greek word for brother (adelphos) was also used very loosely for various degrees of kinship.

In the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the LXX) the word adelphos is used for Lot’s nephew (Gen 14:14). Other similar examples can be given.

Paul says in Col 4:7 & 9
Tychicus, my beloved brother (adelphos)……..together with Onesimus, a trustworthy and beloved brother (adelphos)”. We know from the letter to Philemon that Onesimus was actually a runaway slave, not Paul’s brother (or cousin).

Thirdly there indications in scripture that the brothers and sisters referred to in Mt 13:55 (and the equivalent in other gospels) are not Jesus brothers in any genetic sense.


I care very much about what scripture actually says.
It is you who are inventing what scripture does not say.

Bravo about twisting what I said, you're a faithful modern day Pharisee.
I did not say that "firstborn" meant, "only born."
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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You are making out that Mary and Joseph were just a normal couple. They weren't.
No other woman was chosen by God from the beginning to be the mother of the Saviour
Mary was unique in all human history. No other woman bore God in her womb.

Perhaps your problem is that you don't really believe that Jesus is God

The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
(Lk 1:35)
The Greek word for overshadow (the power of the Most High will overshadow you) is episkiazein, which is the same word used in ancient Greek translations of the OT to describe the cloud of God overshadowing the tabernacle at Mount Sinai (e.g. Ex 40:35 ). So Gabriel is indicating that Mary will be a new tabernacle, a new vessel of God’s holy presence

Her womb is made a sacred vessel, a new Ark of the (new) Covenant.
The Shenikah cloud only rested above the Ark. How much more holy was the womb of Mary where God himself was present for nine months.
The original Ark was made of wood plated with pure gold, representing the holiness of God. It was kept in the Holy of Holies. The high priest could only enter the Holy of Holies once a year.

Sacred vessels are not to be profaned (put to ordinary use). Daniel 5 describes what happens to those who profane sacred vessels – the king, Belshazzar, was slain that very night and his kingdom overthrown by the Medes and Persians.
When Uzzah touched the Ark he was struck dead (1Sam 6:6)

Denying the ever-virginity of Mary subtly denies the divinity of Christ in the womb.

It would not be fitting that the womb that was made so holy by the actual presence of God could be used to bring sinners into the world as other children would have been. What has been consecrated to God should not be profaned. The old Ark of the Covenant was sacred and could not be used for anything else. So too Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant would have been defiled by bearing another child in her womb.

Of course, if Jesus was not actually God, or not God until he was born, or his divinity not hypostatically united to his human nature……(all various heresies), then we are denying the divinity of Jesus who was true man and true God from his very conception.

Show a scripture where the Holy Spirit of God had it written down in black and white where Mary bore God in her womb.
 

theefaith

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Yes I believe you would probably be a violent person. Most people don't like being told their wrong, especially about the things pertaining to God and his Word. Look how the people treated Jesus. It's not anybody fault but your own for not accepting the truth. What you're saying about Mary isn't Biblical.

Are just supposed to believe you? Or are you gonna show us where or how it’s not biblical?
 

Eternally Grateful

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Giving a vague paraphrase of an unidentified scripture is not quoting scripture.
You just have no support for your assertions and opinions.
And Joseph did not know his wife until after the birth of her son

if this does not sounds like scripture to you. Then you are worse off then I thought

good day my friend, It’s obvious you have no desire to discuss anything, you just wish to push your view,
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Are just supposed to believe you? Or are you gonna show us where or how it’s not biblical?

I've given scriptures if you have been following my posts you would have seen them. If you're not going to believe those scripture you're not going to believe any scripture from the Bible. Jesus Christ was the greatest teacher there ever was on earth yet the majority disagreed with him. I'm certainly not a better teacher than him, no where close.
 
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Mungo

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Show a scripture where the Holy Spirit of God had it written down in black and white where Mary bore God in her womb.

Luke 1:30-31
And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.

As I suggested, perhaps your problem is that you don't really believe that Jesus is God.
 

Mungo

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And Joseph did not know his wife until after the birth of her son

if this does not sounds like scripture to you. Then you are worse off then I thought

good day my friend, It’s obvious you have no desire to discuss anything, you just wish to push your view,
Goodbye.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Luke 1:30-31
And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.

As I suggested, perhaps your problem is that you don't really believe that Jesus is God.

There's no place in this scripture where it says she's giving birth to God
 

theefaith

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Show a scripture where the Holy Spirit of God had it written down in black and white where Mary bore God in her womb.

Lk 1: 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
 
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