Perpetual virginity of Mary!

[Eternally Grateful]

Completely and utterly NOT TRUE Barney!!! That teaching started AFTER the Reformation and even some of the Reformers taught Perpetual Virginity.

You should have said "The majority of the scholars I have read....."!

Yep let’s be like the jews and follow the “many” (jewish religious leaders) and ignore the few. Because the many must be right (smh)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

But Jesus was in Mary! The ark of the new covenant!

Oh boy, study my friend study.

 

[Mungo]

No I didn't, you're the one who has allowed imperfect humans fabrications to influence you are true, that's on you. The scriptures show that when it comes to wives and husband's their bodies don't just belong to themselves. The husband's body doesn't just belong to him but it also belongs to the wife and the body of the wife doesn't only belong to her it also belongs to the husband and neither husband or wife should be depriving each others body from each other.

You are making out that Mary and Joseph were just a normal couple. They weren't.
No other woman was chosen by God from the beginning to be the mother of the Saviour
Mary was unique in all human history. No other woman bore God in her womb.

Perhaps your problem is that you don't really believe that Jesus is God

The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. (Lk 1:35)
The Greek word for overshadow (the power of the Most High will overshadow you) is episkiazein, which is the same word used in ancient Greek translations of the OT to describe the cloud of God overshadowing the tabernacle at Mount Sinai (e.g. Ex 40:35 ). So Gabriel is indicating that Mary will be a new tabernacle, a new vessel of God’s holy presence

Her womb is made a sacred vessel, a new Ark of the (new) Covenant.
The Shenikah cloud only rested above the Ark. How much more holy was the womb of Mary where God himself was present for nine months.
The original Ark was made of wood plated with pure gold, representing the holiness of God. It was kept in the Holy of Holies. The high priest could only enter the Holy of Holies once a year.

Sacred vessels are not to be profaned (put to ordinary use). Daniel 5 describes what happens to those who profane sacred vessels – the king, Belshazzar, was slain that very night and his kingdom overthrown by the Medes and Persians.
When Uzzah touched the Ark he was struck dead (1Sam 6:6)

Denying the ever-virginity of Mary subtly denies the divinity of Christ in the womb.

It would not be fitting that the womb that was made so holy by the actual presence of God could be used to bring sinners into the world as other children would have been. What has been consecrated to God should not be profaned. The old Ark of the Covenant was sacred and could not be used for anything else. So too Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant would have been defiled by bearing another child in her womb.

Of course, if Jesus was not actually God, or not God until he was born, or his divinity not hypostatically united to his human nature……(all various heresies), then we are denying the divinity of Jesus who was true man and true God from his very conception.

 

[Mungo]

Mary is not my mother

She is the mother of "those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus" (Rev 12:17)
Are you not one of them?

and Jesus had brothers,

Not children of Mary (see post #33)

so she also did not die a virgin

She was and is ever a virgin

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are making out that Mary and Joseph were just a normal couple. They weren't.
No other woman was chosen by God from the beginning to be the mother of the Saviour
Mary was unique in all human history. No other woman bore God in her womb.

Perhaps your problem is that you don't really believe that Jesus is God

The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. (Lk 1:35)
The Greek word for overshadow (the power of the Most High will overshadow you) is episkiazein, which is the same word used in ancient Greek translations of the OT to describe the cloud of God overshadowing the tabernacle at Mount Sinai (e.g. Ex 40:35 ). So Gabriel is indicating that Mary will be a new tabernacle, a new vessel of God’s holy presence

Her womb is made a sacred vessel, a new Ark of the (new) Covenant.
The Shenikah cloud only rested above the Ark. How much more holy was the womb of Mary where God himself was present for nine months.
The original Ark was made of wood plated with pure gold, representing the holiness of God. It was kept in the Holy of Holies. The high priest could only enter the Holy of Holies once a year.

Sacred vessels are not to be profaned (put to ordinary use). Daniel 5 describes what happens to those who profane sacred vessels – the king, Belshazzar, was slain that very night and his kingdom overthrown by the Medes and Persians.
When Uzzah touched the Ark he was struck dead (1Sam 6:6)

Denying the ever-virginity of Mary subtly denies the divinity of Christ in the womb.

It would not be fitting that the womb that was made so holy by the actual presence of God could be used to bring sinners into the world as other children would have been. What has been consecrated to God should not be profaned. The old Ark of the Covenant was sacred and could not be used for anything else. So too Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant would have been defiled by bearing another child in her womb.

Of course, if Jesus was not actually God, or not God until he was born, or his divinity not hypostatically united to his human nature……(all various heresies), then we are denying the divinity of Jesus who was true man and true God from his very conception.

Your making Mary out to be something she is not

there is absolutely no need for Mary to remain a virgin after Jesus was born, god gave a man and woman and they become one, Mary and Joseph became one after Jesus was born.

 

[Mungo]

Your making Mary out to be something she is not

there is absolutely no need for Mary to remain a virgin after Jesus was born, god gave a man and woman and they become one, Mary and Joseph became one after Jesus was born.

Oh boy, study my friend study.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

She is the mother of "those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus" (Rev 12:17)
Are you not one of them?

the woman in Rev 12 is israel not Mary! Satan attacked Israel not Mary,

Not children of Mary (see post #33)

I read, and you did not prove your point

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Oh boy, study my friend study.

I have, will you? Or will you continue to listen to men?

 

[Mungo]

the woman in Rev 12 is israel not Mary! Satan attacked Israel not Mary,

She is Mary. "she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,"
That is Jesus.

I read, and you did not prove your point

Yes I did.
What was false about my post?

spoken like a true pagan

Are you calling me a pagan?

 

[Mungo]

I have, will you? Or will you continue to listen to men?

You need to study harder then.

 

[Illuminator]

But Mary does have other children! billions of them! Spiritual children!
As Eva was the mother of all the living in the first creation so Mary is the mother of all the living in the new! Jn 19:26-27 rev. 12:17

do you have insights on the meaning of Lk 2:35

Catholics know that Mary is not the mother of God the Father, nor is she mother of the Holy Spirit. Catholicism teaches the pre-existence of Christ, a fundamental belief accepted even by the most venomous anti-Mary bigots. What they refuse to understand is that they are unwittingly dividing Christ into 2 separate persons. The human Christ and the divine Christ. They are one. Mary is the mother of Jesus as Matthew repeats 6 times. And Jesus is God. There is no way out of this logic.

The heretic Nestorius back in 431 AD wanted to give Mary the title "Christotokos" which means "Christ bearer." The Church Fathers chose "Theotokos" which means in English "God bearer" or Mother of God to avoid the potential confusion of Christ's identity.. The Council of Ephesus was more about defending the Trinity than it was about uplifting Mary.

Full context of the Council of Ephesus
number of times mentioned:
God: 146
Jesus 24
Mary 5

It's not that some anti-Mary Christians don't understand, it's that they refuse to understand.

All the early Protestant reformers taught that Mary was sinless. A growing number of Protestants have fallen for the lies invented in the 18th century by modernist liberals. Therefore their flavor of Protestantism is chaotic and meaningless. "Mary a sinner" is a 200 year old false tradition of men. I take it further. It is a doctrine of demons because it denies the power of grace that makes us holy, but they afford that to every individual believer but not to the Mother of Jesus, the Mother of God. That position is unbiblical, stupid and absurd.

God did not HAVE TO make Mary sinless, He CHOSE to.
God can do that because He is God.

 

[theefaith]

Mary is not my mother

and Jesus had brothers, so she also did not die a virgin

so your wrong on both points,

You have scripture for these biases

 

[theefaith]

Oh boy, study my friend study.

enlighten me from scripture?

 

[Illuminator]

Mary is not my mother

and Jesus had brothers, so she also did not die a virgin

so your wrong on both points,

Antinomianism is a set of false beliefs that denies the importance of the Old Testament. Although the term designating this error came into use only in the sixteenth century, the doctrine itself can be traced in the teaching of the earlier Gnostic heresies.

In what is among the most simple and beautiful prayers in the Torah, Moses fervently prays for God to dwell “in the midst of” his people. It is a seemingly praiseworthy request, and yet God’s answer is a firm “no.” God’s refusal was not because of any lack of desire on his part; God’s will was always to dwell in the midst of his people. The problem was Israel’s sins.

The Lord said to Moses . . . Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; but I will not go among you, lest I consume you in the way, for you are a stiff-necked people (Exod. 33:3).

For the Lord had said to Moses, “Say to the people of Israel, You are a stiff-necked people; if for a moment I should go up among you, I would consume you” (Exod. 33:5).

God says he could have dwelt among them—but he would have destroyed them if he had! And yet in spite of the dire warnings, Moses entreats the Lord anyway, in Exodus 34:9, with this prayer:

If now I have found favor in thy sight, O Lord, let the Lord, I pray thee, go in the midst of us, although it is a stiff-necked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thy inheritance.

When I said Moses’ petition would not be granted, that was true, but incomplete. It would be more correct to say it would not be granted in his lifetime, or even in the context of the Mosaic Covenant. Because of the sins of Israel, God would only dwell in the Ark of the Covenant made of wood and gold, in the tabernacle in the wilderness, or later on in the temple. However, the God-inspired longing of Moses’ heart would one day be realized. Multiple prophets subsequent to the time of Moses prophesied God would indeed one day dwell in the midst of his people. But this ancient promise would only find its fulfillment in Jesus Christ… and in his mother.

Let us first consider the prophet Isaiah. In the first eight chapters of the book that bears his name, in good prophetic tradition Isaiah brings a message of stern warning to Israel (and the surrounding nations) because of their abundant sins. But in later chapters we also see the promise of the coming Messiah. For our purpose we’ll focus on chapters eleven and twelve. You’ll want to take note of how many times the inspired author prophesies of that day, which refers to the coming of the Messiah and the New Covenant.

There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots. And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord . . . In that day the root of Jesse shall stand as an ensign to the peoples. . . In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant which is left of his people . . . You will say in that day: “I will give thanks to thee, O Lord, for though you were angry with me, your anger turned away . . . Shout, and sing for joy, O inhabitant of Zion, for great in your midst is the Holy One of Israel” (11:1-2, 10-11; 12:1,6).

The promise of the Lord dwelling in the midst of Israel was just that—a promise for the future.

And we should further note that in Isaiah and elsewhere, “the inhabitant of Zion” is also referred to as “the daughter of Zion,” or even “the virgin daughter of Zion.” For example, in Isaiah 37:22, Isaiah prophesies against Assyria, who had conquered Israel:

[Assyria] despises you, she scorns you—the virgin daughter of Zion; she wags her head behind you—the daughter of Jerusalem (Isa. 37:22; Cf. Jer. 14:17; Lam. 2:13).

In Zephaniah, we find similar language. The Lord chastises Israel resoundingly for its sins, but then promises through the message of the prophet:

“Therefore wait for me,” says the Lord, “for the day when I arise as a witness . . . On that day you shall not be put to shame . . .) For they shall pasture and lie down, and none shall make them afraid. Sing aloud, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel! Rejoice and exult with all your heart, O daughter of Jerusalem . . . The King of Israel, the Lord, is in your midst (3:8, 11, 13-15).

And finally, after urging Israel to repent of their sins, Zechariah also prophesies: “Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion; for lo, I come and I will dwell in the midst of you, says the Lord” (Zech. 2:10).

We now fast-forward to Luke 1:28. When Luke records the greeting of the angel, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” There are two keys to understanding this text in relation to Mary as the fulfillment of the ancient “daughter of Zion” prophecies.

1. The Greek word for hail is kaire, which can also be translated rejoice. In fact, the New King James Version of the Bible translates it as, “Rejoice, highly favored one!” Because this “new name”—kecharitomene—is in the feminine, we could also translate it as “Rejoice, favored woman.”

1. The angel does not say “the Lord shall be with you;” he says, “The Lord is with you.”

Could this hearken back to the prophetic “daughter of Zion” prophecies of old? There is really no biblical way around it. The ancient prayer of Moses was definitively answered in and through what was likely to have been about a fifteen year-old young woman named Mary, and in a way beyond the wildest imaginings of the ancient prophets. Because of her “yes,” after all of those centuries in waiting, God would finally dwell “in the midst of his virgin Daughter of Zion.”

Indeed, this verse becomes an excellent example of what Scripture scholars refer to as the polyvalent or multi-layered nature of Scripture. The angel’s greeting not only signals that Mary is “full of grace,” but that she is the true “Daughter of Zion.”

So how does this relate to Mary being free from sin? We saw before that it was the sin of Israel that prevented God from dwelling “in the midst of” “the virgin daughter of Zion.” How fitting for the New Covenant Daughter of Zion—in the midst of whom the Lord would dwell bodily—to be free from all sin. The obstacle that kept God from dwelling in the midst of his people had been eliminated through Mary’s Immaculate Conception, and Mary becomes the archetype of the Church—“holy and without blemish” (Eph. 5:27).

On one level, since she was “full of grace” Mary was the fulfillment of the prophecies concerning the Daughter of Zion even before the Incarnation. And yet, there was more to come. Mary’s fullness of grace had prepared the New Covenant Daughter of Zion for something the Old Covenant people of God could never have fathomed. It was grace that made her fit to be a worthy vessel to bear the King of Glory in her body. The fulfillment of God’s promise would not be complete, then, until Mary conceived Jesus in her womb.

“[Rejoice], full of grace, the Lord is with you! . . . the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called . . . the Son of God” (Luke 1:28-35).

I suppose an entire volume could be written on the significance of these prophecies. But I will conclude our thoughts here with a section from the Catechism and its succinct teaching on the significance of Mary as Daughter of Zion, in whom God promised he would dwell:

The Holy Spirit prepared Mary by his grace. It was fitting that the mother of him in whom “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” should herself be “full of grace.” She was, by sheer grace, conceived without sin as the most humble of creatures, the most capable of welcoming the inexpressible gift of the Almighty. It was quite correct for the angel Gabriel to greet her as the “Daughter of Zion”: “Rejoice” (CCC 722).

 

[Illuminator]

I do not think the Bible is mute

it states Jesus had brothers. (Not cousins)

and it said joseph did not KNOW his wife until after the birth of Jesus.
Inspite of the claims contrary, this sentence is meaningless if he “never” knew his wife.

If you were smart, you would keep your anti-Biblical diabolical opinions to yourself, and stop attacking the Incarnation with these insults.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

She is Mary. "she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,"
That is Jesus.


Yes I did.
What was false about my post?



Are you calling me a pagan?

Rev 12 is a historical account of isreal (the woman) who gave birth to Jesus. And how Satan will go after the woman in the last days by Jesus will
Protect her so Satan turns his wrath on her offspring (the gentile believers)

no you did not prove your point you gave me your opinion and I can not agree

and pagan beliefs which you follow. Well I hope you get the point although I deleted that aspect. Because although I believe it it did Not help in the discussion

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You need to study harder then.

You do my friend

you are tonight what to believe. I actually studied to test the spirit of what others believe. As I was told to

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If you were smart, you would keep your anti-Biblical diabolical opinions to yourself, and stop attacking the Incarnation with these insults.

If you were smart you would study the word and stop with your arrogant responses

I did Not attack Jesus Stated facts

 

[Mungo]

Rev 12 is a historical account of isreal (the woman) who gave birth to Jesus. And how Satan will go after the woman in the last days by Jesus will
Protect her so Satan turns his wrath on her offspring (the gentile believers)

no you did not prove your point you gave me your opinion and I can not agree

and pagan beliefs which you follow. Well I hope you get the point although I deleted that aspect. Because although I believe it it did Not help in the discussion

You provide no scriptural support for these assertions you keep making.

And I did prove my point with plenty of scriptural support - unlike you.

 

[Mungo]

You do my friend

you are tonight what to believe. I actually studied to test the spirit of what others believe. As I was told to

You don't seem to have studied much scripture.
You don't seem to be able to quote any to support your assertions.

So far you have not given a single quote from scripture.
Your opinions are insufficient.