Personal responsibility

[Mayflower]

I am not sure whether he has access to the forum anymore, don't quite know how things work out but his profile is unavailable. Haven't seen him post for a few days X
Rita

Yeh Ive responded hi to some on here that I know a little more. And like Enoch was my secret brother for a week to share scriptures too one time. I just am careful...ladies too, but a bit more open to pming. It is just a personal conviction. Anyway, dropping out before this turns into too much spam. Ive been chatty on site lately. Lol

 

[Butterfly]

I think we all have to follow our hearts within our own situations, and exercise wisdom - so I get your decision completely xx
Rita

 

[Vince]

Morality has nothing to do with it. That is man's term by which he judges what he thinks is good. Morality can change from one culture to another.

Give me the Scriptures you are addressing. If an institution of slavery exists, and a slave is disobedient, and God said that beatings are needed, then they are needed.

This is an example of the thinking that causes many injustices to happen. No reason given to morals just do what the book says. No situational ethics etc. I will have you note that the slavery was instituted by god himself, that is why it existed.

Give me the Scripture concerning the rape you are addressing.

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." Duet 22:28-29 NIV.

Notice here that god never says to not rape her, he says if he does AND GETS CAUGHT he has a penalty of silver and must marry her.

 

[Stranger]

This is an example of the thinking that causes many injustices to happen. No reason given to morals just do what the book says. No situational ethics etc. I will have you note that the slavery was instituted by god himself, that is why it existed.



"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." Duet 22:28-29 NIV.

Notice here that god never says to not rape her, he says if he does AND GETS CAUGHT he has a penalty of silver and must marry her.

So what? I have no problem with God instituting slavery. Do you? Is it against your high and lofty morals?

(Deut. 22:25) speaks to rape. "...and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die."

The verses you give simply say that if you two are going to have sex then your going to get married. You want to play, you get to pay. Sounds good to me.

Stranger

 

[Vince]

So what? I have no problem with God instituting slavery. Do you? Is it against your high and lofty morals?

Yes it is. Do you still have any empathy left?

(Deut. 22:25) speaks to rape. "...and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die."

The verses you give simply say that if you two are going to have sex then your going to get married. You want to play, you get to pay. Sounds good to me.

Stranger

That is not what it says. It says rape, non consensual sex. The woman here is being harmed and this is your response? This is why religion corrupts peoples minds, it takes away their empathy.

 

[Stranger]

Yes it is. Do you still have any empathy left?

That is not what it says. It says rape, non consensual sex. The woman here is being harmed and this is your response? This is why religion corrupts peoples minds, it takes away their empathy.

Empathy for who?

I'm not so sure (Deut. 22:28-29) is rape. (Deut. 22:25) is, for it says ''and the man force her". No such language is used in (28-29). (22:28) says 'lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found' When it says, 'they be found' it appears to be by consent. Either way, the man will have to marry the woman and take care of her for the rest of his life.

Stranger

 

[Vince]

Empathy for who?

A woman that has been raped.

I'm not so sure (Deut. 22:28-29) is rape. (Deut. 22:25) is, for it says ''and the man force her". No such language is used in (28-29). (22:28) says 'lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found' When it says, 'they be found' it appears to be by consent.

Duet 22:28 many translations use the word rape here, some lay hold of etc. The definition of the word taphas means by force or as we call it rape.

Either way, the man will have to marry the woman and take care of her for the rest of his life.

How many women would actually want that? Shouldn't the woman have a choice in who she marries?

 

[Jon Mathews]

Let me ask you Christian's a question.

You believe that Jesus has died for your sins, and therefore takes the burden of those sins off your shoulders. No matter how much you Christian's mess up this side of life, so long as you believe that Jesus died for you, you are absolved of the penalty of all your sins.

Please explain to me how this POV doesn't make you completely irresponsible, and prevents you from taking personal steps in changing your bad nature.

Because if you really believe some guy has taken the fall for you, your a complete coward. Okay, it's like this.

I do something real bad in life, and there is no way out for me but the chopping block. But I hatch a plan to get some other smuck to take the heat for me. So I go and setup my only daughter to take all responsibility, and then I sit back while her head goes to the block.

That's basically what you Christian's are telling me to believe, like it's so noble to let someone else pay for your stupidity.

You don't understand the Gospel and what it means to be Born of God's Spirit. You are still under the Law which brings Condemnation and the Wrath of God and you're trying to save yourself from your own sinful nature by (as you say) "taking personal steps in changing your bad nature". This will never work. No matter how hard you try, you cannot keep the Law which says "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength." This is also why you keep breaking the 2nd command to "Love your neighbor as yourself".

You must be Born Again.

(1 John 3:9)
"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God."

(Hebrews 10:26-27)
"For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

At the same time that Jesus Christ forgives all our sins, He also gives a NEW heart that hates sin, and a spirit that cannot continue in sin, because we are born of God. A person who continues to sin (makes a practice of sinning) is not a Christian, no matter what they call themselves. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit. A tree is known by it's fruit. A christian may stumble and fall into sin, but they don't continue in it, they have remorse and Godly sorry for it, and they will always repent to Jesus Christ if they commit sin. And they are continually growing in Holiness as God Spirit works in them to uphold them and teach them to walk with God.

Jesus doesn't just take away our punishment for sin, He gives Love for God and People by giving us the Power/Spirit that saves us from sinning. The Holy Spirit is the down payment or "Promise" that God Himself will eventually deliver us from all sin in our flesh.... the Living Hope of the resurrection of our bodies.

 

[Stranger]

A woman that has been raped.

Duet 22:28 many translations use the word rape here, some lay hold of etc. The definition of the word taphas means by force or as we call it rape.

How many women would actually want that? Shouldn't the woman have a choice in who she marries?

The man who raped the woman was in (Deut. 22:25). And he would be put to death. Is that all right with you?

Well, in many cultures the woman doesn't have the choice. So what? You think God does everything to please the American way?

Stranger

 

[Vince]

The man who raped the woman was in (Deut. 22:25). And he would be put to death. Is that all right with you?

No and here's why. In this passage Deut 22:25-26:

"But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her."

In this passage the rapist is sentence to death for the rape but only because the woman is pledged to be married to anther man, not because he committed rape. I know this because in Deut 22:28-29 it says this:

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."

In this scenario the rapist does not deserve death for committing the same act. So the punishment of death in the first scenario has nothing do do with the rape but everything to do with the status of the woman as related to another man. And the punishment is paying the father money and then marrying her. The woman has no say in any of this. A woman forced to marry her rapist is immoral in any culture, and the consequence of paying the father instead of any restitution to the woman is immoral as well. The woman in both of these scenarios is just there and never considered worth anything.

Well, in many cultures the woman doesn't have the choice. So what? You think God does everything to please the American way?

Stranger

I don't think forcing a woman to marry her rapist is moral. Do you? Ask any woman you know and see what they say.

 

[Stranger]

No and here's why. In this passage Deut 22:25-26:

"But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her."

In this passage the rapist is sentence to death for the rape but only because the woman is pledged to be married to anther man, not because he committed rape. I know this because in Deut 22:28-29 it says this:

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."

In this scenario the rapist does not deserve death for committing the same act. So the punishment of death in the first scenario has nothing do do with the rape but everything to do with the status of the woman as related to another man. And the punishment is paying the father money and then marrying her. The woman has no say in any of this. A woman forced to marry her rapist is immoral in any culture, and the consequence of paying the father instead of any restitution to the woman is immoral as well. The woman in both of these scenarios is just there and never considered worth anything.

I don't think forcing a woman to marry her rapist is moral. Do you? Ask any woman you know and see what they say.

As I said, in (Deut. 22:28) I am not convinced it is rape. "and they be found"

Irregardless of what you think about it, it is the way God instituted it. And I guarantee you it would have worked. Your 'morals' don't really matter.

Stranger

 

[Vince]

As I said, in (Deut. 22:28) I am not convinced it is rape. "and they be found"

Many commentaries and bible translators disagree with you.

Irregardless of what you think about it, it is the way God instituted it. And I guarantee you it would have worked. Your 'morals' don't really matter.

Stranger

So you are OK with a woman being forced to marry her rapist because god says it is ok?

 

[Stranger]

Many commentaries and bible translators disagree with you.

So you are OK with a woman being forced to marry her rapist because god says it is ok?

So?

I am OK with whatever God says to those He says it to.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

Understand why the whores and tax-collectors are beating you into the kingdom which was um meant diff than it is now reading, but maybe it works on more than one level?

Word

fortunately that--all of that, every single Word of that--is either stated in plain Tongue or obviously (to a one-eyed ish) inferred, more than one place, many places.

So, No Son of Man may die for another's sins ends up going with
Jesus, of Nazareth after--and only after--it is understood that 1st century Rabbis were IDed by which school they learned under, indicated by where that school was, hence Paul of Tarsus, etc.

Can anything good come from Nazareth? is there to help, and i guess ol' Richard even illustrated that there were no ppl in first century Nazareth, although it was inhabited before and after, which has been fairly confirmed by archeology now i think.

So, Jesus--which is actually Joshua, the most common name in the area then--of Nazareth xlates to...well, i don't even need to say it, do i? But since google can help more, "John Doe from out of Nowhere" i think it is...well dang Abarim sitesearch is down at the moment, pretty sure that's close, best of luck there. Could be "John Smith" maybe?

yes, "John Doe from out of Nowhere," in Halting the Sun over Gibeon

 

[bbyrd009]

And I guarantee you it would have worked.

hmm, the impression i got was it was doomed to failure...dunno

 

[bbyrd009]

So?

I am OK with whatever God says to those He says it to.

Stranger

how bout if it was your daughter, Stranger

 

[Stranger]

hmm, the impression i got was it was doomed to failure...dunno

...but you're a muslim.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

how bout if it was your daughter, Stranger

Yes, if I lived under those laws, I would accept the law of God. Now, would you?

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

...but you're a muslim.

Stranger

not sure how that would apply to the point, the Jews who lost their Theocracy?
even if it were true.

you think you could Quote something from their Book that we don't have in ours?
you cant, ok. See you maybe don't realize that based upon actions, you are paying me a compliment too I guess, as we have amply demonstrated here onsite I think, I mean i'm still waiting for the very first complaint against a Muslim neighbor here?

Why make yourself a liar on something so easy to verify?

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, if I lived under those laws, I would accept the law of God. Now, would you?

Stranger

that is bc you are under the law right now, Stranger, and you dont know what the law of God is yet imo. I could demonstrate this too if you like. Ah well I guess you just did huh. I tend more to lawlessness myself though i guess?

but to answer your q, would I accept those as given, likely in the same spirit as "an eye for an eye?" As limiting iow? Well, something is better than nothing I guess, so sure