Peter the Rock?

[Brakelite]

Thanks for your opinion, Scott.

I agree with him MMOG. I was a Catholic before you were born, and spent 23 years at the feet of brothers and priests learning Catholic principles and teachings. Scott is correct. Catholics have a serious issue as to what they truly rely on regarding salvation. They may say they trust in God, or even Calvary, but very rarely. The vast majority trust in church membership. Historical tradition and family adherence. "Once a Catholic always a Catholic". Or they trust in their acts of religious devotion.

• Stations of the cross.
• The rosary.
• Confession.
• Church attendance.
• Scapulae
• Holy water
• Ritual
• Good works toward the poor, the widow, and the orphan
• Volunteering for the local St Vincent de Paul society second hand good store etc etc etc

Why is it that Catholics get so beside themselves when someone leaves the church and the person's testimony is that Jesus called them out? Should you not rather rejoice that they have followed their Master and obeyed Him? Why is it that their leaving the church is recognised as akin to leaving Christ? Surely it's because you believe your church is is essential to salvation? It isn't. In fact, it's a stumbling block, for your church rejected the blood Atonement of Christ a long time ago.

 

[RedFan]

Hello Redfan,

It is not an obscure process. From the beginning, bishops were ordained through the laying on of hands.

Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the presbyterate.

One cannot claim ordination for oneself. It must be conferred by the Church, by the laying on of hands, through those who have the authority to do so. This is the practice of the Faith in every community you find founded by an apostle...

Pax et Bonum

Thanks. I wasn't referring to the the tactile mechanics. I was referring to the appointment/election itself, i.e., how someone merited the hands being laid on him. The former is not obscure at all. The latter is.

 

[Tulipbee]

I am by no means a Calvinist, but couldn't agree more with some of his stances, particularly in the realm of prayer and access to the only true Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ. Thanks for ditching the dance analogies. Eloquent and poetic though they may be .

Brakelite, your appreciation for certain aspects of Calvin's stances, especially in the realm of prayer and access to the Mediator, resonates with a shared commitment to foundational Christian principles. It's heartening to find common ground amid diverse theological perspectives.
Calvin's emphasis on the priesthood of all believers, allowing direct access to God through Jesus Christ, aligns with your acknowledgment of the sole Mediator. This core principle, rooted in biblical teachings, emphasizes the intimate and personal connection that each believer can have with God, transcending hierarchical structures.
I appreciate your understanding of the nuances in communication styles, and I'm here to engage in meaningful and diverse conversations, always aiming for clarity and resonance with the topic at hand. Your insights contribute to the richness of our theological explorations.
May our discussions continue to be marked by mutual respect and a genuine pursuit of truth, drawing from the wellsprings of biblical wisdom. #ChristianInsights

 

[Brakelite]

I used Scripture (Hebrews 13:17 and Matthew 18:17) to show you how someone (elders, overseers) DOES have authority over us, the flock of The Church. Hebrews 13:17 says that the elders of The Church "watch out for your souls". How can they watch out for our souls if their authority "does not extend to spiritual truth and doctrine"?

They watch for our souls by ensuring we have the best possible environment in which to grow our relationship with Jesus. It's about what Jesus instructed the church to do... Make disciples. It isn't about compelling us to do stuff their way.

Matthew 18:17 says that if we refuse to accept the authoritative decision of The Church that we are to be kicked out of The Church. Are you suggesting that "spiritual truth and doctrine" are off limits to the authority given to the elders of The Church?

As I said. The authority of the church does not override the authority of Jesus. The authority of the church is limited. When Jesus gave the church authority, He wasn't divesting Himself of authority. Allow me to give you an example. The 4th commandment. Whose authority ought we surrender to should we choose to obey it? The one who established it and gave it to the church, or the one who altered it according to his own sense of superiority?

I have given Scripture to back up what I believe, and my Church teaches. Can you please provide Scripture to back up your teaching?

You gave your church's understanding of scripture and told me I ought to obey your church. That's very different from obeying the scripture.

 

[amadeus]

My brother. That is all God is looking for. Trending toward Him, in practise and growth. And at whatever stage we may be at, whether a delicate bulb or a fully developed flower in full bloom and beautiful fragrance, either way, we are perfect in His eyes. Perfect, yet not complete. A seeming contradiction, but truth nevertheless.

Yes, the perfection is in the motion directed always toward Him. If it ever stops it would only be when they are ready to shovel the dirt over our faces at the end of the time given to each of us. God alone is both perfect and complete of all those I have known. Has any man but Jesus attained to that?

 

[Philip James]

. They may say they trust in God, or even Calvary, but very rarely. The vast majority trust in church membership. Historical tradition and family adherence. "Once a Catholic always a Catholic". Or they trust in their acts of religious devotion.

Dear Brakelite.

Why do you assert such assinine falsehoods...

. I was a Catholic before you were born, and spent 23 years at the feet of brothers and priests learning Catholic principles and teachings.

And apparently you weren't paying much attention, for you to have such a warped understanding of the Catholic faith..

Why is it that Catholics get so beside themselves when someone leaves the church and the person's testimony is that Jesus called them out?

Because the Spirit calls us to unity not to division.. Jesus is not divided against Himself..

They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

Pax et Bonum

 

[Philip James]

how someone merited the hands being laid on him. The former is not obscure at all. The latter is.

Hello Redfan,

What do you find obscure in that? How candidates were chosen or presented for ordination?
However that may have been, it remained the choice of the bishop to lay hands or not. And that is a serious responsibility indeed..

Do not lay hands too readily on anyone, and do not share in another's sins. Keep yourself pure.

Pax et Bonum

 

[BreadOfLife]

Ah, BreadOfLife, a seasoned traveler in the realm of theological discourse, your candid critique resonates through the dance of ideas. Let's address this observation with a Calvinistic touch, embracing introspection and fostering a commitment to mature dialogue.

Quoting from Calvin's teachings on humility, one might respond, "In the pursuit of truth, let us approach one another with humility and a genuine desire to understand. Calvin would remind us that the journey of faith requires an openness to correction and growth."

Considering the wisdom of G.K. Chesterton's quote, "Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions," one might add, "Convictions indeed shape our discourse, but let us balance conviction with charity, seeking understanding rather than mere tolerance."

So, BreadOfLife, as we navigate this discourse, may our words be marked by sincerity, humility, and a shared commitment to the pursuit of truth. Let the dance of ideas continue, guided by the grace of respectful dialogue. ️ #CalvinisticReflection

Calvin might also remind you that theological matters are about the Word of God and His very existence – and HARDLY a forum for regurgitating idiotic “dance” references.

Whe you choose to grow up and have a discussion like an adult - we can talk . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I agree with him MMOG. I was a Catholic before you were born, and spent 23 years at the feet of brothers and priests learning Catholic principles and teachings.

For 23 years, you wallowed in abject ignorance of the beliefs and teachings of Christ’s Church instead of inquiring from within. Ypu were easy fodder for the false teachings and perverse doctrines of the SDA by which you were seduced.

Scott is correct. Catholics have a serious issue as to what they truly rely on regarding salvation. They may say they trust in God, or even Calvary, but very rarely. The vast majority trust in church membership. Historical tradition and family adherence. "Once a Catholic always a Catholic". Or they trust in their acts of religious devotion.

• Stations of the cross.
• The rosary.
• Confession.
• Church attendance.
• Scapulae
• Holy water
• Ritual
• Good works toward the poor, the widow, and the orphan
• Volunteering for the local St Vincent de Paul society second hand good store etc etc etc

This is PRECISELY what I’m talking about with regard to your ignorance of ALL things Catholic.

We don’t “rely” on these things for salvation. We avail ourselves of every avenue of God’s grace. Prayer, sacrifice, confessing our sins, church attendance, serving others – these are ALL things that are commanded in Scripture. They are ALL part of the obedience of faith (Rom. 1:5, 16:26), which Protestants erroneously believe is the same as “Belief”.

Why is it that Catholics get so beside themselves when someone leaves the church and the person's testimony is that Jesus called them out? Should you not rather rejoice that they have followed their Master and obeyed Him? Why is it that their leaving the church is recognised as akin to leaving Christ?Surely it's because you believe your church is is essential to salvation? It isn't. In fact, it's a stumbling block, for your church rejected the blood Atonement of Christ a long time ago.

Spoken like a true soldier of Ellen White. Try bring a soldier for Christ instead.
A quick study f God’s Word will answer your question.
In Acts 9, Saul is struck by a bright light on the road to Damascus:

Acts 9:4-5
And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, WHOM YOU ARE PERSECUTING.

Question: WHO was Saul persecuting?
Answer: Christ’s Church.

Jesus and His Church are ONE (Col. 1:18).

 

[BreadOfLife]

For 23 years, you wallowed in abject ignorance of the beliefs and teachings of Christ’s Church instead of inquiring from within. Ypu were easy fodder for the false teachings and perverse doctrines of the SDA by which you were seduced.

This is PRECISELY what I’m talking about with regard to your ignorance of ALL things Catholic.

We don’t “rely” on these things for salvation. We avail ourselves of every avenue of God’s grace. Baptism is a ritual. Prayer, sacrifice, confessing our sins, church attendance, serving others – these are ALL things that are commanded in Scripture. They are ALL part of the obedience of faith (Rom. 1:5, 16:26), which Protestants erroneously believe is the same as “Belief”.

Spoken like a true soldier of Ellen White. Try bring a soldier for Christ instead.
A quick study f God’s Word will answer your question.
In Acts 9, Saul is struck by a bright light on the road to Damascus:

Acts 9:4-5
And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, WHOM YOU ARE PERSECUTING.

Question: WHO was Saul persecuting?
Answer: Christ’s Church.

Jesus and His Church are ONE (Col. 1:18).

 

[BreadOfLife]

The point is-- apostolic succession is not passed on by men.

The Church doesn't teach that Apostolic Succession is passed on by mere men. This is yet another antu-Catholic fairy tale.
It is the Holy Spirit who chooses those whp succeed. Jesus guaranteed His Church:
John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

Men aare just the instraments God uses to convey His Authority.
YOU wouldn't even have a Bible if it weren't for those men being guided by the Holy Spirit to ALL Truth.

 

[Taken]

Peter the Rock?

Confusion and wonderment looms.

Peter is the created.

God the Creator is The Rock.

Deut. 32:
[4] He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

 

[ScottA]

The Church doesn't teach that Apostolic Succession is passed on by mere men. This is yet another antu-Catholic fairy tale.
It is the Holy Spirit who chooses those whp succeed. Jesus guaranteed His Church:
John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

Men aare just the instraments God uses to convey His Authority.
YOU wouldn't even have a Bible if it weren't for those men being guided by the Holy Spirit to ALL Truth.

That's all true (except the "fairy tale" part).

The problem is that the Catholic church has claimed exclusivity by their "private interpretation" of the scriptures.

Ironically--sad really--how everything the Catholic church has violated, Peter spoke or warned against. Quite apropos.

 

[RedFan]

Hello Redfan,

What do you find obscure in that? How candidates were chosen or presented for ordination?

Yup. We just don't have an early account of how it went. Say an original apostle appoints a bishop in a city. That bishop appoints a successor, or maybe several bishops in surrounding regions join him to do so, or maybe there is a vote of some clerics in the region?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Peter the Rock?
Confusion and wonderment looms.
Peter is the created.

God the Creator is The Rock.

Deut. 32:
[4] He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Abraham (Isa. 50:1-2) and Peter (Matt. 16:18) are also called "Rock".

 

[Philip James]

We just don't have an early account of how it went. Say an original apostle appoints a bishop in a city.

We have the account of Paul appointing Titus.

TheChurch in Crete still recognizes him as their first bishop

 

[BreadOfLife]

That's all true (except the "fairy tale" part).

The problem is that the Catholic church has claimed exclusivity by their "private interpretation" of the scriptures.

Ironically--sad really--how everything the Catholic church has violated, Peter spoke or warned against. Quite apropos.

When there is ONE Church of Christ and the Apostles – there IS exclusivity of interpretation.
And, official Church interpretation is not “private”.

Private interpretation is when laymen like YOU or Ellen White or Charles Taze Russel, etc., read things into Scripture that aren’t there and formulate perverse doctrines. The exclusivity that belongs to Christ’s Church was breached several times in history – most notable during and after the 16th century.

Result – all kinds of competing and otherwise perverse doctrines . . .
Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
Some believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not.
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on . . .

That is the mess created by rejection of Church Authority - and personal interpretation run amok . . .

 

[RedFan]

We have the account of Paul appointing Titus.

TheChurch in Crete still recognizes him as their first bishop

True. How did his successor get the job?

 

[Philip James]

Peter the Rock?

Confusion and wonderment looms.

Peter is the created.

God the Creator is The Rock.

Deut. 32:
[4] He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Hello Taken my old friend,

And what a wonderful mystery it is, that Jesus so identifies Simon with Himself that He gives him the name Rock !

Pax et Bonum

 

[Philip James]

True. How did his successor get the job?

Does it matter? His successor would have to be a bishop and recognized as the ordinary for that 'see' by other bishops and by the Church in Crete.. they would not follow another...

Pax et Bonum