Peter the Rock?

[Wrangler]

Peter is the rock that Jesus built His Church

Hey Wrangler.....I never said, and The Church has never taught that Peter was THE rock of The Church

Oh. You fooled me again.

 

[Marymog]

Oh. You fooled me again.

Oh goodness Wrangler.....you put the FUN in funny.

There is no controversy or gotcha moment here. Like I said, Peter is not THE rock of The Church. Jesus is THE rock of The Church. Pay attention to emphasis in what I wrote.

However Peter is, as Jesus said, the rock he will build His church upon after He is crucified. In other words Peter takes over leadership of The Church upon His crucifixion. That is clearly evident throughout the NT, and historical Christian writings, which shows that Peter is the leader of the Apostles (leader of The Church) after the death of Jesus.

I refer you back to post #738 to help clear up your confusion. You keep denying that Jesus said to Peter 'upon this rock I will build my church'. I know you and your ilk want to twist the word 'this' in that statement from Jesus and pretend "this" means Peters statement. However your twisting FAILS on many levels: Peter Is the Rock Upon Which the Church Is Founded

Thanks for keeping our conversation FUN......Mary

 

[Wrangler]

In other words Peter takes over leadership of The Church upon His crucifixion

It's so funny that after 38 pages, you pretend like your interpretation "in other words" is not understood.

IF this were a legitimate take, we submit Jesus would have said that. Moreover, you are doubling down on your pretension that there is a doctrinal purity test of salvation with believing this "in other words" as one of the top conditions of salvation. It is not.

However, I think it is clear that Jesus' use of the word "this" is not referring to the person of Peter but his Confession. This is consistent with other Scripture. Romans 10:9 NLT If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

NOTICE It does not declare that believing Peter is the head of the church as a condition to be saved? I think you are incapable of admitting this because then your house of cards will fall.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The church Paul was persecuting was NOT the Catholic Church whose headquarters is in the Vatican.

Paul was persecuting the church, yes.

So are you.

And your cult is not a church, since you claim there is no salvation outside of your cult. And your cult is full of false doctrines and evil practices and does not even know let alone teach the true gospel of God.

And you are a blasphemer, equating Christ with the fallible, mortal men in your cult who are both capable of sin and who commit the sin of blasphemy against Christ, and claiming that whoever rejects the authority of your cult is rejecting the authority of the one and only true Christ.

Your cult is the thief and the robber who does not go in by the door in John 10. Your cult is the voice of the stranger:

John 10
1 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter into the sheepfold by the door, but going up by another way, that one is a thief and a robber.
2 But he who enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 The doorkeeper opens to him, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 And when he puts forth his own sheep, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him. For they know his voice.
5 And they will not follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.

Though the above reference to the thief and robber is true of your cult, you do not understand this, because you cannot hear.

And you cannot hear because you are not of His sheep. You are a blasphemer:

26 But you did not believe because you are not of My sheep. As I said to you,
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.
29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one!

Once again, Einstein – “blasphemy” is the mockery of God – not of YOU.
And nowhere have I equated Jesus with humans.

As I educated you before – JESUS equated His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:3-4), because the Church is His BODY (Col. 1:18). NONE of your Protestant factions can trace its lineage ANY further back than the 16th century.

The Catholic Church, however, goes ALL the way back to the 1st century and the Apostles. That’s not a matter of opinion – but a historical FACT.

From FIRST century Bishop and lifelong student of the Apostle John, Ignatius of Antioch:
Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).

“Obey your clergy”?
“The sole Eucharist”
“… the Catholic Church”?

There’s only ONE Church that fits this bill – and it ain’t YOURS.
The only “Thief” here is YOU . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

You really wanna stick with a church that by her own mouth disqualifies herself as the "remnant" church?

I’m sticking with the ONLY Church established by Jesus Christ and His Apostles.

YOU’VE chosen to follow the lunatic ravings of an imbalanced 19th century woman . . ..

 

[BreadOfLife]

No one on Earth rules over me. I am a free man and know Scripture; where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And it ain’t with you Peterians!

Then you're NOT part of Christ's Church . . .

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

 

[Marymog]

However, I think it is clear that Jesus' use of the word "this" is not referring to the person of Peter but his Confession. This is consistent with other Scripture. Romans 10:9 NLT If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

NOTICE It does not declare that believing Peter is the head of the church as a condition to be saved? I think you are incapable of admitting this because then your house of cards will fall.

Scripture doesn't say, I have never said in our conversations and The Church has never said that one has to believe "Peter is the head of the church as a condition to be saved". ANOTHER false accusation....Tisk Tisk. But that is par for the course with you.

No, it is not "clear that Jesus' use of the word "this" is not referring to the person of Peter but his Confession." That is something you and your ilk made up 500 years ago. If your theory were true then Jesus would be a horrible teacher. You and your ilk are suggesting that he went from YOU YOU YOU, referring to Peter and Peter alone 3 times BEFORE he said "this" which means all of a sudden, according to your theory, Jesus wasn't talking to Peter about Peter! He was talking to Peter about his confession! He then said YOU 3 more times after that to Peter about Peter. Your theory makes no sense. It doesn't work in no way shape or form. Twist it all you want...all you will get is an unholy pretzel.

I believe what He said; you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church,

You don't believe what He said.


“Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not [g]prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth [h]will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

 

[Marymog]

It's so funny that after 38 pages, you pretend like your interpretation "in other words" is not understood.

IF this were a legitimate take, we submit Jesus would have said that. Moreover, you are doubling down on your pretension that there is a doctrinal purity test of salvation with believing this "in other words" as one of the top conditions of salvation. It is not.

However, I think it is clear that Jesus' use of the word "this" is not referring to the person of Peter but his Confession. This is consistent with other Scripture. Romans 10:9 NLT If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

NOTICE It does not declare that believing Peter is the head of the church as a condition to be saved? I think you are incapable of admitting this because then your house of cards will fall.

It's so funny that you can't address all the FACTS I posted.....

 

[Marymog]

Then you're NOT part of Christ's Church . . .

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

@Wrangler doesn't like those verses so he scratched them out of his bible.

I have asked him who rules over him; he hasn't, to the best of my memory, answered that yet.

 

[BarneyFife]

No, "later" was correct. The apostles were not filled with the Holy Spirit until came. He first came--then they were filled.

Just curious; how did they do this stuff:

Luke 10
1After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of Him, two by two, into every town and place where He himself was about to go... 9Heal the sick in it and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you... 17The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name!”... 19Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you.

It's always confused me the way people restrict the activity of the Holy Spirit to times and places. I get that the Pentecost outpouring was special, but I don't see it as being as exclusive as some make it out to be.


.

 

[The Learner]

Many Protestants base their rejection of the Catholic view off of the supposed difference in meaning between Petros and Petra. That difference in meaning doesn’t really exist in the Greek spoken at the time of Christ. But in any case, as John 1:43 shows, Jesus named Peter “Cephas” in Aramaic, which is the exact same word as “Rock.” In Aramaic it’s Cephas and cephas; literally translating that to Greek would give you Petra and petra, which is a problem, since Petra is feminine, and can’t be used as a man’s name. So St. Matthew renders it as the male Petros instead.

Even if Protestants were right about the proper interpretation of “the Rock” in Matthew 16, the broader passage still supports the papacy, since it shows the foundation of an institutional Church, and the giving of specific powers (the Keys, and the powers of binding/loosening) to Peter individually. For this reason, you can have Fathers like St. Augustine, who aren’t sure on the proper interpretation of “the Rock,” but are steadfast in their belief in the papacy, based upon Petrine authority. IN fact, even if Matthew 16 didn’t exist, there would still be abundant support for the papacy throughout the rest of Scripture and in the testimony of the early Christians.

Did you even read Fitzmyer's refutation in BAR?

 

[Brakelite]

But you already know that because it's in Scripture.

Where?

But you already know that because it's in Scripture.

Where?

You are admitting it is a Church tradition AND Scripture says hold fast to Traditions but you say that you don't have to adhere to what Scripture says about traditions.

Paul says follow the traditions he taught and practised. Not what future popes would command without the authority.

, The Lords Day, just like the Apostles did 2,000 years ago.

Except they didn't. Show me one example on scripture of a meeting on the first day of the week for the purpose of worship and hearing the gospel. Just one.

 

[The Learner]

Many Protestants base their rejection of the Catholic view off of the supposed difference in meaning between Petros and Petra. That difference in meaning doesn’t really exist in the Greek spoken at the time of Christ. But in any case, as John 1:43 shows, Jesus named Peter “Cephas” in Aramaic, which is the exact same word as “Rock.” In Aramaic it’s Cephas and cephas; literally translating that to Greek would give you Petra and petra, which is a problem, since Petra is feminine, and can’t be used as a man’s name. So St. Matthew renders it as the male Petros instead.

Even if Protestants were right about the proper interpretation of “the Rock” in Matthew 16, the broader passage still supports the papacy, since it shows the foundation of an institutional Church, and the giving of specific powers (the Keys, and the powers of binding/loosening) to Peter individually. For this reason, you can have Fathers like St. Augustine, who aren’t sure on the proper interpretation of “the Rock,” but are steadfast in their belief in the papacy, based upon Petrine authority. IN fact, even if Matthew 16 didn’t exist, there would still be abundant support for the papacy throughout the rest of Scripture and in the testimony of the early Christians.

"Petra is feminine" is like the grammar of French. It has nothing to due with Gender.

Learning New Testament Greek: Nouns, Articles, and Position

Learning New Testament Greek: Nouns, Articles, and Position

www.ibiblio.org

https://elex.link/elex2023/wp-content/uploads/41.pdf

"feminine nouns include: names of lands, countries, abstract ideas, matters, states of affairs; parts of the bod that come in pairs."

http://arshama.classics.ox.ac.uk/downloads/Aramaic%20Skeleton%20Grammar%2003%20(Nouns).pdf

Hebrew Grammar: Feminine Nouns

Hebrew Grammar: Feminine Nouns

blogs.transparent.com

Feminine Singular Nouns

An Introduction to Hebrew Feminine Singular Noun morphology and syntax.

www.hebrew4christians.com

 

[ScottA]

Just curious; how did they do this stuff:

Luke 10
1After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of Him, two by two, into every town and place where He himself was about to go... 9Heal the sick in it and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you... 17The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name!”... 19Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you.

It's always confused me the way people restrict the activity of the Holy Spirit to times and places. I get that the Pentecost outpouring was special, but I don't see it as being as exclusive as some make it out to be.


.

That's understandable, as the Holy Spirit is God, and never changes. However, the biblical explanation shows the spirit of God coming "upon" those before the availability of the Holy Spirit being poured out upon all flesh as prophesied by Joel, arranged by Jesus, and announced and confirmed by Peter, which changed the "upon" access of the Holy Spirit to be "in you."

The distinction then, is simply made to hold God and Christ true according to every word given...even if it makes "every man a liar."

 

[The Learner]

Many Protestants base their rejection of the Catholic view off of the supposed difference in meaning between Petros and Petra. That difference in meaning doesn’t really exist in the Greek spoken at the time of Christ. But in any case, as John 1:43 shows, Jesus named Peter “Cephas” in Aramaic, which is the exact same word as “Rock.” In Aramaic it’s Cephas and cephas; literally translating that to Greek would give you Petra and petra, which is a problem, since Petra is feminine, and can’t be used as a man’s name. So St. Matthew renders it as the male Petros instead.

Even if Protestants were right about the proper interpretation of “the Rock” in Matthew 16, the broader passage still supports the papacy, since it shows the foundation of an institutional Church, and the giving of specific powers (the Keys, and the powers of binding/loosening) to Peter individually. For this reason, you can have Fathers like St. Augustine, who aren’t sure on the proper interpretation of “the Rock,” but are steadfast in their belief in the papacy, based upon Petrine authority. IN fact, even if Matthew 16 didn’t exist, there would still be abundant support for the papacy throughout the rest of Scripture and in the testimony of the early Christians.

Please read the Shepard of Hermas sometime Brother, Friend

 

[The Learner]

Time for a Bible Lesson . . .

The Church is the Bride of Christ.

In Rev. 12, the Church - the Bride - is described as the New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven.
- She is described as having TWELVE foundations of precious stones (Rev 12:9-14).
- Each foundation is emblazoned with the name of each of the TELVE Apostles.
- Peter is the FIRST among the Apostles, as the Scriptures emphatically state (Matt. 10:2, Mark. 3:16, Luke 6:14, Luke 22:31-32, John 21:15-19, Acts 1:13).

WHOSE name do you suppose will be on the first Foundation?
Kepha – Cephas – Peter.

Brother, Friend I enjoy learning from others.

Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

This is just my humble understanding. The persons in the Gospels who dug down to bed rock(Jesus) to build their house. Then came the OT Prophets, Jesus as the Cornerstone, then the Apostles. I am thinking Peter was the first among equals. He was the main leader among them.

 

[The Learner]

Are you serious?

Revelation 12:9-14

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Nothing about new Jerusalem or the church being the bride or twelve stones.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Nothing about new Jerusalem or the church being the bride or twelve stones.


11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Nothing about new Jerusalem or the church being the bride or twelve stones.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Nothing about new Jerusalem or the church being the bride or twelve stones.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Nothing about new Jerusalem or the church being the bride or twelve stones.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Nothing about new Jerusalem or the church being the bride or twelve stones.

Either you’re just making up things, or your Bible is broken, either way that was the worse Bible lesson ever!

simply brings to mind:

Revelation 21

Easy-to-Read Version

​

The New Jerusalem​

21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The first heaven and the first earth had disappeared. Now there was no sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem,[a] coming down out of heaven from God. It was prepared like a bride dressed for her husband.
3 I heard a loud voice from the throne. It said, “Now God’s home is with people. He will live with them. They will be his people. God himself will be with them and will be their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, sadness, crying, or pain. All the old ways are gone.”
5 The one who was sitting on the throne said, “Look, I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this, because these words are true and can be trusted.”
6 The one on the throne said to me, “It is finished! I am the Alpha and the Omega,[b] the Beginning and the End. I will give free water from the spring of the water of life to anyone who is thirsty. 7 All those who win the victory will receive all this. And I will be their God, and they will be my children. 8 But those who are cowards, those who refuse to believe, those who do terrible things, those who kill, those who sin sexually, those who do evil magic, those who worship idols, and those who tell lies—they will all have a place in the lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
9 One of the seven angels came to me. This was one of the angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues. The angel said, “Come with me. I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 The angel carried me away by the Spirit to a very large and high mountain. The angel showed me the holy city, Jerusalem. The city was coming down out of heaven from God.
11 The city was shining with the glory of God. It was shining bright like a very expensive jewel, like a jasper. It was clear as crystal. 12 The city had a large, high wall with twelve gates. There were twelve angels at the gates. On each gate was written the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west. 14 The walls of the city were built on twelve foundation stones. On the stones were written the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod made of gold. The angel had this rod to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. 16 The city was built in a square. Its length was equal to its width. The angel measured the city with the rod. The city was 12,000 stadia[c] long, 12,000 stadia wide, and 12,000 stadia high. 17 The angel also measured the wall. It was 144 cubits[d] high. (The angel was using the same measurement that people use.) 18 The wall was made of jasper. The city was made of pure gold, as pure as glass.
19 The foundation stones of the city walls had every kind of expensive jewels in them. The first foundation stone was jasper, the second was sapphire, the third was chalcedony, the fourth was emerald, 20 the fifth was onyx, the sixth was carnelian, the seventh was yellow quartz, the eighth was beryl, the ninth was topaz, the tenth was chrysoprase, the eleventh was jacinth, and the twelfth was amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls. Each gate was made from one pearl. The street of the city was made of pure gold, as clear as glass.
22 I did not see a temple in the city. The Lord God All-Powerful and the Lamb were the city’s temple. 23 The city did not need the sun or the moon to shine on it. The glory of God gave the city light. The Lamb was the city’s lamp.
24 The peoples of the world will walk by the light given by the Lamb. The rulers of the earth will bring their glory into the city. 25 The city’s gates will never close on any day, because there is no night there. 26 The greatness and the honor of the nations will be brought into the city. 27 Nothing unclean will ever enter the city. No one who does shameful things or tells lies will ever enter the city. Only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life will enter the city.

Footnotes​

 

[The Learner]

If only our papal antichrist friends would understand that Jesus would never choose someone He called "Satan" to build His church upon. He built it upon the unquestionable authority of God's Word...not some man who catholics claims his word "precedes and God subscribes to it".

In that context Satan simply means Adversary.

 

[The Learner]

Why is this so hard to understand?

A church (building) starts with a corner stone then the foundation is laid. That corner stone (rock) has to be perfect or the foundation will be uneven. Peter was not perfect, but there is a perfect rock.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

starts with bedrock Brother, friend

 

[The Learner]

oh, I am not goign to keep up, wife, boss is kicking me off. good night all