Physcial Healing or Spiritual Healing?

[VictoryinJesus]

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

James 5: 14-20

I don’t hear a promise is this passage of scripture for physical healing of the sick. I hear a promise for cleansing, repentance, and salvation; the purpose of the anointing of oil meaning Spirit. Should the prayer of the elders be for the Spirit of God to save the sick and raise him up spiritually or physically? Is not a prayer focused on salvation and repentance the sick’s best opportunity, if God chooses it to be so, to give the sick more time to grow and mature through sanctification for God's will and purpose? It has been my experience the focus is on physical healing (maybe my experiences are rare.)

I ask this question only because; although I am no elder, I do want to pray for others and the prayer to align with God's will. I use to think I could boldly pray for someone sick and hold tight to the promise of healing but after staying in His word and life circumstances that aligned with what His Word says, I am left with this: It is invasive for me to force my way into a tender moment a family is having and claim that scripture promises their loved one healing. I now believe a prayer for the Spirit aligns more with God's Word and is possibly a more effectual prayer.

"And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.” John 16: 23-24

 

[Stranger]

VictoryinJesus

I have a book I find myself constantly going back to. It addresses the things you are speaking of. I think you would benefit from it. "Surprised By the Power of the Spirit and By the Voice of God", by Jack Deere.

Should be found easily at a half price book store or Amazon.

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

VictoryinJesus

I have a book I find myself constantly going back to. It addresses the things you are speaking of. I think you would benefit from it. "Surprised By the Power of the Spirit and By the Voice of God", by Jack Deere.

Should be found easily at a half price book store or Amazon.

Stranger

I will look Jack Deere's books up on Amazon and give them a chance. Thank you.

 

[heavenforbid]

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

–James 5: 14-20

I don’t hear a promise is this passage of scripture for physical healing of the sick. I hear a promise for cleansing, repentance, and salvation; the purpose of the anointing of oil meaning Spirit. Should the prayer of the elders be for the Spirit of God to save the sick and raise him up spiritually or physically? Is not a prayer focused on salvation and repentance the sick’s best opportunity, if God chooses it to be so, to give the sick more time to grow and mature through sanctification for God's will and purpose? It has been my experience the focus is on physical healing (maybe my experiences are rare.)

​I ask this question only because; although I am no elder, I do want to pray for others and the prayer to align with God's will. I use to think I could boldly pray for someone sick and hold tight to the promise of healing but after staying in His word and life circumstances that aligned with what His Word says, I am left with this: It is invasive for me to force my way into a tender moment a family is having and claim that scripture promises their loved one healing. I now believe a prayer for the Spirit aligns more with God's Word and is possibly a more effectual prayer.

“And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.” John 16: 23-24

It sounds like you're trying to focus out miraculous misappropriation. Maybe you are seeing like others see that Jesus has retrofitted his abilities to a standard so high, that you have to make the most ridiculous claims when next to none of those abilities are shown.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

heavenfold: I am not sure I follow. I think I understand you to say this passages refers to physical healing and because Jesus set the standard so high, since I can not reach that standard and do not see the miraculous healings that come from being anointed with oil by an elder then I have to make scripture fit my lack of sight. If I understood correctly then you are partially correct.

Colossians 1:19-22King James Version (KJV)
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

​You are right; we can come nowhere close but the Spirit of God does not change, meaning the spirit inside of you and me is the same Spirit that was in the apostles and very much alive and active today. But I also believe sometimes we hear what we want to hear (which I think is what you were implying). I have three voices that war inside my head: one is my spirit which is still selfish and carnal. Another voice has to be Satan's considering he plants visions of my legs withered when there is nothing wrong with my legs. Another communicates through scripture giving correction, guidance, hope, love, and promptings. I believe in the miraculous. I have witnessed it. But sometimes I struggle with which voice is truth and question if I am I being led astray. Which is the reason for asking other Christians that may be far more mature than I am.

"Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure." 1 Timothy 5: 22

 

[bbyrd009]

nice. i would ID it as the soul which is selfish and carnal, but i get you. I think the term "prayer" is made into a little ritual thing that we do, rather than a conviction that is demonstrated by faith, in our current and future actions--dismissing the shrivelled-leg concept, and replacing it with a confident image of health, etc. Iow, pray for someones healing all you like, but if they won't get up out of the chair and go for a walk, and exercise their legs, don't be expecting much from that "prayer."

 

[heavenforbid]

heavenfold: I am not sure I follow. I think I understand you to say this passages refers to physical healing and because Jesus set the standard so high, since I can not reach that standard and do not see the miraculous healings that come from being anointed with oil by an elder then I have to make scripture fit my lack of sight. If I understood correctly then you are partially correct.

Colossians 1:19-22King James Version (KJV)
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

​You are right; we can come nowhere close but the Spirit of God does not change, meaning the spirit inside of you and me is the same Spirit that was in the apostles and very much alive and active today. But I also believe sometimes we hear what we want to hear (which I think is what you were implying). I have three voices that war inside my head: one is my spirit which is still selfish and carnal. Another voice has to be Satan's considering he plants visions of my legs withered when there is nothing wrong with my legs. Another communicates through scripture giving correction, guidance, hope, love, and promptings. I believe in the miraculous. I have witnessed it. But sometimes I struggle with which voice is truth and question if I am I being led astray. Which is the reason for asking other Christians that may be far more mature than I am.

"Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure." 1 Timothy 5: 22

Hmph.,

 

[the stranger]

I had quite a struggle over this scripture too for a while. I believe physical and/or soul is meant but things to keep in mind, we must pray according with the holy Spirit, according with the will of God. Thus showed with examples in James words you showed us.
For we do know God creates (allows) deformities and sickness, being His will as through (because of) sin we are all destined to suffer, in hope bringing us closer to God for eternal life. Exodus 4:11 Deut. 23:39 1 Sam. 2:2-7 Job 5:6 14:2 Acts 17:24-28 2 Corinthians 4:16-17 1 Peter 3:17 4:19
And we must pray in the Spirit always of wanting and knowing God's will and being prepared to endure sufferring if if needed (God's will) knowing God will not leave us Jer. 10:19 Psa. 23:4 Acts 1:24 Romans 8:26-27 2 Cor. 6:4-10 Eph. 6:18 1 John 5:14
Sometimes healing is not granted until death on this earth 2 Sam. 12:22-23 Psa 72:12-14 Matthew 5:4 John 5:2-9 11:39 2 Cor 12:8 Phil 2:27 1 Tim 5:23 2 Tim 4:20 1 Peter 5:10
Only a willing heart is needed if God's will is to heal instead of showing His glory and love through our sickness. Matthew 17:20 Mark 9:23-24 John 5:7-8 9:2 20:3-31 Acts 3:6-8 9:32-34 2 Cor. 1:4-6 11:27-29 12:7-10
We could never help (relate to) the suffering if we never suffered. Certainly pains and hurts other believers if accused of lack of faith. And few Christians ever died quickly versing length of struggles, pain before death. And without suffering how could we be rewarded.
This is all from my personell study greatly condensed. Not that it is better than any other or expected to actually look up every verse, but ky hope is it could help shed some light on the subject for you anyways, though who truely are we to understand the ways of God. We can only trust and obey as He is love.
Also consider Job was used as an example by James, and he endured great suffering for an unknown time frame. And how close were James and Paul? I dont know but James certainly was aware of Paul's (thorns) which God never took away but yet through Paul healed many others.
In the end, I would not rule out physical healing from the James passage, but, perhaps, understant it being when we pray in accordance with God's will, they will be healed physically. But who am I to truely understand the ways and words of our amazing God?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I had quite a struggle over this scripture too for a while. I believe physical and/or soul is meant but things to keep in mind, we must pray according with the holy Spirit, according with the will of God. Thus showed with examples in James words you showed us.
For we do know God creates (allows) deformities and sickness, being His will as through (because of) sin we are all destined to suffer, in hope bringing us closer to God for eternal life. Exodus 4:11 Deut. 23:39 1 Sam. 2:2-7 Job 5:6 14:2 Acts 17:24-28 2 Corinthians 4:16-17 1 Peter 3:17 4:19
And we must pray in the Spirit always of wanting and knowing God's will and being prepared to endure sufferring if if needed (God's will) knowing God will not leave us Jer. 10:19 Psa. 23:4 Acts 1:24 Romans 8:26-27 2 Cor. 6:4-10 Eph. 6:18 1 John 5:14
Sometimes healing is not granted until death on this earth 2 Sam. 12:22-23 Psa 72:12-14 Matthew 5:4 John 5:2-9 11:39 2 Cor 12:8 Phil 2:27 1 Tim 5:23 2 Tim 4:20 1 Peter 5:10
Only a willing heart is needed if God's will is to heal instead of showing His glory and love through our sickness. Matthew 17:20 Mark 9:23-24 John 5:7-8 9:2 20:3-31 Acts 3:6-8 9:32-34 2 Cor. 1:4-6 11:27-29 12:7-10
We could never help (relate to) the suffering if we never suffered. Certainly pains and hurts other believers if accused of lack of faith. And few Christians ever died quickly versing length of struggles, pain before death. And without suffering how could we be rewarded.
This is all from my personell study greatly condensed. Not that it is better than any other or expected to actually look up every verse, but ky hope is it could help shed some light on the subject for you anyways, though who truely are we to understand the ways of God. We can only trust and obey as He is love.
Also consider Job was used as an example by James, and he endured great suffering for an unknown time frame. And how close were James and Paul? I dont know but James certainly was aware of Paul's (thorns) which God never took away but yet through Paul healed many others.
In the end, I would not rule out physical healing from the James passage, but, perhaps, understant it being when we pray in accordance with God's will, they will be healed physically. But who am I to truely understand the ways and words of our amazing God?

Thank you for sharing your personal study. It does helps! I will look the verses up.

 

[the stranger]

My health, like every other human, is a bit less than it once was and i have a very hard time reading much or concentrating so i am hoping this study is not mis typed from me from the paper. It has been quite a while since that study but i cannot proof check it. God bless. Any mistakes that may be in there are likely minor but one number makes a huge difference. Lol. Take care. And know for sure, God sufferes with us and never ever forsakes us even when we do not see Him.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I completely understand. I love the book of Job!!
There is a bond that takes place through suffering; a bond with others, and a bond with God. I imagine that is why God commands the brethren to carry one another’s burdens. He knows this is the path to authentic love and true intimacy with another human being. It is a privilege when God touches our life with a need to cry out to Him.

 

[the stranger]

Good words Victory. I love the book of Job as well.

 

[bbyrd009]

i would view deteriorating health differently than outside agencies causing one harm, in light of "his moisture had not left him" etc. Poor or deteriorating health is not the default state, and is a sign that changes should be made. It might become difficult to see whether these changes are spiritual or physical in the moment, but after all a spiritually healed person will most likely have a problem doing a physically unhealing or unsound thing, such as eating CAFO protein, perhaps...or another example might be diabetics don't fast, something like that. On some level we all realize that our deteriorating health is self inflicted, right.

And imo Job, or Paul's thorn, are different cases from "deteriorating health." I am led to post this only because i have seen a few cases, leukemia, or diabetes II, which were being earnestly prayed about, when what was needed was some amygdalin for cyanide deficiency, and maybe laying off the hot dogs and bologna, or fasting, as the case may be. And imo in the two cases now in mind, they were being told these--their prayers were being answered, iow--but they just didn't want to hear it.

All deteriorating health is self-inflicted. Whether these result from deficiencies, as is likely most common, or not, the problem is ultimately a spiritual one, so even a physical deficiency may be seen as a manifestation of a spiritual issue, at least in a sense.

Of course it is not PC to tell a friend "Hell no, i won't pray for you for that, because you will just keep ignoring the answer to prayer," even if it is what they most need to hear. This has lost me a few friends, and in my chosen pursuits, i expect to lose a few more. The payoff, seldom though it is, is worth it :)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I agree and disagree. Two years ago, I wrote very dark subject matters that were so far from Christian that it scares me. The world liked to trash I was feeding them which only fed this “I have to succeed” monster inside me. My quest was relentless and most of my time was devoted to producing more and more while the world was interested and buying. I have no doubt that I was in Satan’s clutches because of the ick I felt daily. The filth had a presence. Thankfully the sin and stressing and striving non-stop produced within my body an auto immune response. The flare of symptoms happened slowly and silently but led to a total shutdown of a life-gone-wrong. I have no doubt that God intervened. So yes, sin caused my illness. And yes, I needed to acknowledge where I was headed which was nowhere good. I am thankful for my illness though because it led to the most profound time spent with God. I can now say…had I passed two years ago, I would have not entered in through the narrow gate, even though I claimed to be Christian. I had no idea what being a follower of Christ meant.
What Satan meant to destroy me. God meant for good.
That is my struggle with prayer for the sick. Yes, pray. But pray for God's will to be done and that does not always mean healing of the physical. In fact, I would venture to say it seldom means physical healing because it is the discomfort that alerts us of the need for spiritual healing and grows our dependence on Him ...daily. If we are not careful, we can build someone up so much that they ignore what their body is screaming because we tell them God has already healed them; robbing them of the chance to be fearful and to cry out and seek Him day and night. We are robbing them of the opportunity to fully seek a relationship with Him because we want to feel useful and better. I have the same conflict with someone only studying God’s word through the teaching of a pastor on Sunday morning and Wednesday night. Pastors are good, but a pastor shouldn’t take the place of someone reading the bible alone at home, with the Holy Spirit to teach them. Otherwise how will they know if the Spirit of God is truly in them? Sad thing is, since they are reliant on a man preaching from the pulpit...they do not recognize the absence of the Holy Spirit and their own spiritual state. I know, because I have been there.

 

[bbyrd009]

well said, imo. But this all seems to be agreement--what is the disagreement part? ty

 

[VictoryinJesus]

"All deteriorating health is self-inflicted."

Although sin is obviously the origin of decay and death, I am hesitant to blame the person’s sins in every case. For example: my friend’s daughter. She is thirteen and has cerebral palsy. I have never met someone so genuine and full of grace. I am the one with the problem. Not this little girl. I pity her not being able to swing like her younger sisters. But she chuckles, full of joy and happiness while watching them play. I assume she is slow in thought because of her speech but she is intelligent, focused and knows exactly what her calling is…to help children with similar disabilities. I think sometimes God allows disease; not as a blatant result of sin, but so there is no explanation other than …He clothed that person in His strength and grace.

 

[bbyrd009]

ah well good point, i guess congenital problems are another thing entirely, yes.

 

[the stranger]

Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.

 

[heavenforbid]

Jesus is the way!,

 

[Josho]

[SIZE=12pt]14 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]15 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]16 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]17 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]18 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]19 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]20 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]–James 5: 14-20[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I don’t hear a promise is this passage of scripture for physical healing of the sick. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]I hear a promise for cleansing, repentance, and salvation; the purpose of the anointing of oil meaning Spirit. Should the prayer of the elders be for the Spirit of God to save the sick and raise him up spiritually or physically? Is not a prayer focused on salvation and repentance the sick’s best opportunity, if God chooses it to be so, to give the sick more time to grow and mature through sanctification for God's will and purpose? [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]It has been my experience the focus is on physical healing (maybe my experiences are rare.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]​I ask this question only because; although I am no elder, I do want to pray for others and the prayer to align with God's will. I use to think I could boldly pray for someone sick and hold tight to the promise of healing but after staying in His word and life circumstances that aligned with what His Word says, I am left with this: It is invasive for me to force my way into a tender moment a family is having and claim that scripture promises their loved one healing. I now believe a prayer for the Spirit aligns more with God's Word and is possibly a more effectual prayer. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.” John 16: 23-24[/SIZE]

Well God can do both physical and spiritual healing, obviously ones salvation is the ultimate healing though, not every born again believer may get their physical healing here on earth, but they are ultimately healed and blessed with new bodies in heaven, we don't have to carry any sicknesses or infirmities into heaven, praise God. So that's the good way of looking at it, anyone who is saved is healed in heaven.