Please explain this.

[Nancy]

Well, yeah Byrd, as I said before, I don't want to be here any longer than necessary. But if you want to mock someone who hurts to see war and child abuse and animal abuse and the horrors that men do to each other, go on. Its okay.

I'm with you here all the way Jen!

 

[GodsGrace]

It a better answer than I thought I was going to get. Although I have all the confidence in you. Big difference between Sheol and Hades and the place of torment that we call hell and Gehenna...figuratively. In the OT everyone, good and bad went Sheol and Hades and it was not a place of torment. And it would be wrong to translate them to Hell. It was a sequence of events that brought the Jews to a broader understanding of the spirit world. The main factor was the Persians...the ones that helped build the second Temple. What the Persians believed was not exactly what the Jews believed but they were exposed to the concepts of a place of torment and the battle between good and evil. As you say, Alexander was in deed a factor but mostly it was those converted to Christianity from among his officers and Greek rulers of Egypt Ptolemy I and II. Who were responsible for the Septuagint, and I dare say a certain amount of Greek Philosophy.

But still why didn't God offer heaven to His people? This is one of the clues to why everything changed and the human messiah king would not due.....the messiah had to be a God and it had to be the Son of God.

Not putting you two ladies on the spot...just food for thought....you two can figure it out.

The Messiah had to be a God because the "insult" to God was so great when Adam disobeyed Him. The offering of a man would never be enough...the sacrifice and offering had to be great and of a high value since what was lost in the Garden was great and of a high value.

Before Jesus everyone went to Hades....either to Abraham's Bossom or to the other side where there was torment. (hell).

Jesus opened the gates of heaven.
Mathew 27:51 All those that were waiting in Abraham's Bossom went to heaven.

As to why God didn't offer heaven to His people...
I never thought of this.
I can see that you're going to make me do some studying.
I know it's because Jesus hadn't died yet....but I don't know the why.

Maybe because nothing impure could enter into heaven....
Revelation 21:27

Maybe because we had to be washed with the blood.
Animal sacrifices were not enough.

??

 

[GodsGrace]

I did??? When?? How would I know that??

You did! You said that whoever doesn't agree with you is "lawless"!

I already have--and they are not infallible you know. The French Huguenots (Protestants) were so angry over some of the things that Irenaeus wrote that they trashed his tomb in Lyons.

Yes, but here's the thing--as much as a pastor might like to order their parishioners to "good works" of his choosing, in reality, the good works were prepared by God for His children and they need to wait til they know that it is what He wants them to do.

Why would you quote extra-Biblical works to me when I think you must have surmised that I would only accept quotes from the Bible?

I have NEVER said that we are justified by our words (or our works). We are justified on the basis of our faith in the completed work of Christ on the Cross. Clement of Rome was mistaken. Again, I only accept the Bible as being authoritative. Reading what the saints have written down through the centuries is fine but they are NOT the word of God, which is the only basis for faith and practice. Are you a Roman Catholic??! If so, I am not surprised that we have many areas of disagreement.

JESUS said the lawless are not going to heaven. NOT ME.
I'd never say such a thing. Unlike some here, I don't judge souls.

The Early Fathers are not infallible?
That's very interesting because they're the ones that put the bible together and decided which books were canonical.

So do you think your pastor knows more than the early fathers?

Of course the protestants would be upset over what Irenaeus said.
Of course, I'd take HIM over them any day. They didn't know John's pupil.

You let YOUR PASTOR determine what good works are for you?
Interesting. Do you know anyone that does?

You think the Early Fathers are EXTRA BIBLICAL works?
And you don't trust Clement of Rome, who studied with Paul?

OK.

 

[Grailhunter]

The Messiah had to be a God because the "insult" to God was so great when Adam disobeyed Him. The offering of a man would never be enough...the sacrifice and offering had to be great and of a high value since what was lost in the Garden was great and of a high value.

Before Jesus everyone went to Hades....either to Abraham's Bossom or to the other side where there was torment. (hell).

Jesus opened the gates of heaven.
Mathew 27:51 All those that were waiting in Abraham's Bossom went to heaven.

As to why God didn't offer heaven to His people...
I never thought of this.
I can see that you're going to make me do some studying.
I know it's because Jesus hadn't died yet....but I don't know the why.

Maybe because nothing impure could enter into heaven....
Revelation 21:27

Maybe because we had to be washed with the blood.
Animal sacrifices were not enough.

??

Your mind moves so fast. Christians got the word and concept for Hades from Greek Mythology. Hades is a God and a bad place. They liked it so they put in the Holy Bible, mostly in the NT. This happens around the same time they adopted the word Lucifer. It only occurs in one scripture Isaiah 14:12. This scripture is actually about God railing on a human king, but in process of the discussion the morning dawn is
mentioned. Those writing the Latin bible wanted to be more specific, so they refereed the morning star, which is Venus. Then they rewrote the scripture to make it fit. Their intent was to make this discussion about Satan, by another name, Venus translates to Lucifer in the Latin. Which was a bad change to the scripture. When they translated the Holy Bible to other languages they liked the change and they liked the word. So they took a Latin word and brought it into the English translation, because it sounded evil and male. But Lucifer is Latin for Venus, a planet, referenced as the morning star, its female. And more importantly had nothing to do with the scripture. As it is Christianity has wrote volumes of books about a thing that does not exist.

I agree that the Messiah had to be a God...but that was not what the Jews or the Prophets believed. If they did, they would have been shouting it from the mountain tops and there would have been huge discussions about the Messiah God that was coming. The Jews were looking for a human messiah king that would set things straight. Looking for a warlord not the Lord. They were definitely not expecting a peaceful and loving messiah God.

And again God never promised heaven to anyone in the NT. No one is talking about what they need to do to go to heaven and no one is fearful of Hell.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your mind moves so fast. Christians got the word and concept for Hades from Greek Mythology. Hades is a God and a bad place. They liked it so they put in the Holy Bible, mostly in the NT. This happens around the same time they adopted the word Lucifer. It only occurs in one scripture Isaiah 14:12. This scripture is actually about God railing on a human king, but in process of the discussion the morning dawn is
mentioned. Those writing the Latin bible wanted to be more specific, so they refereed the morning star, which is Venus. Then they rewrote the scripture to make it fit. Their intent was to make this discussion about Satan, by another name, Venus translates to Lucifer in the Latin. Which was a bad change to the scripture. When they translated the Holy Bible to other languages they liked the change and they liked the word. So they took a Latin word and brought it into the English translation, because it sounded evil and male. But Lucifer is Latin for Venus, a planet, referenced as the morning star, its female. And more importantly had nothing to do with the scripture. As it is Christianity has wrote volumes of books about a thing that does not exist.

I agree that the Messiah had to be a God...but that was not what the Jews or the Prophets believed. If they did, they would have been shouting it from the mountain tops and there would have been huge discussions about the Messiah God that was coming. The Jews were looking for a human messiah king that would set things straight. Looking for a warlord not the Lord. They were definitely not expecting a peaceful and loving messiah God.

And again God never promised heaven to anyone in the NT. No one is talking about what they need to do to go to heaven and no one is fearful of Hell.

The entire story about satan comes from scripture that does not specifically name him. It's a conjecture based on O.T. writings.

The reason I believe satan is a real being is because Jesus spoke of him.
What quickly comes to mind is the exorcism of "devils" from persons, the fact that He was tempted somehow in the desert after He got baptized....I'm sure there's more.

We can know there's a hell because in some place or other there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I mean, I know a couple of priests that don't even believe hell exists. Let's not get into that.

Yes, The Jews were not waiting for a Jesus type, spiritual Messiah. They wanted someone that would help them get the Romans out of their land and be victorious.
This idea of the atonement came AFTER Jesus' death, formulated basically by Paul.

Your last paragraph is very interesting.
Jesus spoke of being away from God.
He spoke of separating the wheat and the chaff,
the sheep and the goats,
those who did and those who did not do.

Could you please expound on your last paragraph?

Here it is:
And again God never promised heaven to anyone in the NT. No one is talking about what they need to do to go to heaven and no one is fearful of Hell.

Thanks.

 

[Grailhunter]

The entire story about satan comes from scripture that does not specifically name him. It's a conjecture based on O.T. writings.

The reason I believe satan is a real being is because Jesus spoke of him.
What quickly comes to mind is the exorcism of "devils" from persons, the fact that He was tempted somehow in the desert after He got baptized....I'm sure there's more.

We can know there's a hell because in some place or other there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I mean, I know a couple of priests that don't even believe hell exists. Let's not get into that.

Yes, The Jews were not waiting for a Jesus type, spiritual Messiah. They wanted someone that would help them get the Romans out of their land and be victorious.
This idea of the atonement came AFTER Jesus' death, formulated basically by Paul.

Your last paragraph is very interesting.
Jesus spoke of being away from God.
He spoke of separating the wheat and the chaff,
the sheep and the goats,
those who did and those who did not do.

Could you please expound on your last paragraph?

Here it is:
And again God never promised heaven to anyone in the NT. No one is talking about what they need to do to go to heaven and no one is fearful of Hell.

Thanks.

The point of this, or points, has nothing to do with if Satan and Hell are Real....Absolutely and for certain, Satan, demons, and hell are very real. But the Jews did not understand all of that....And the last paragraph... Sorry HA Ha I meant God never promised heaven to anyone in the OT. One letter off.

 

[GodsGrace]

The point of this, or points, has nothing to do with if Satan and Hell are Real....Absolutely and for certain, Satan, demons, and hell are very real. But the Jews did not understand all of that....And the last paragraph... Sorry HA Ha I meant God never promised heaven to anyone in the OT. One letter off.

So you're saying that they came to understand hell from outside influence?

 

[Grailhunter]

So you're saying that they came to understand hell from outside influence?

These are topics that are good discussions and there are answers. But we are probably going to take them one at a time.
The topics I brought up today are not

So you're saying that they came to understand hell from outside influence?

For sure...you know that at the time of Christ, some of the Jews understood this and some of them did not. Some believed in angels and the resurrections and some did not. And this is why I brought all this up. Knowing the facts about the Jews and the OT answers a lot of the Questions in the NT.

 

[Grailhunter]

Your last paragraph is very interesting.
Jesus spoke of being away from God.
He spoke of separating the wheat and the chaff,
the sheep and the goats, those who did and those who did not do.

We can go over these topic...fun!

 

[justbyfaith]

We are regenerated and renewed by faith, Titus 3:4-7.

A regenerated and renewed soul will always do good works when given the opportunity; while he or she is saved apart from works: and therefore if someone is regenerated and renewed and dies the next moment, or the rapture hits, they will immediately be in the presence of the Lord.

@GodsGrace, you misunderstand me.

I am not saying that you should stop doing good works. Whatever you are doing, keep it up (except for teaching that we maintain our salvation by works; since that it is false doctrine, it will do more harm than good and therefore it is better if you cease and desist)!

Just realize that you are not maintaining your salvation because you are doing them.

I have given enough scripture to show that the righteousness of the Lord is by faith from beginning to end and all the way through (Romans 1:17, Romans 5:2 w/ Colossians 2:6, Galatians 3:1-3).

This means that you do not maintain your salvation by what you do, but by the attitude of faith.

Faith means that you are submitted and surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, so living works won't be absent if you have the faith that I am talking about.

However, works without faith is dead, Hebrews 6:1.

So if you have works but do not have faith, your works will avail you nothing to bring you salvation.

If you start out being saved by grace through faith and then switch over to being saved by your works, just know that your works aren't going to save you; Ephesians 2:9.

Being saved by grace through faith, and being saved by works, are mutually exclusive, Romans 11:5-6.

And therefore, if you move over to being saved by your works after having been saved by grace through faith, then you are no longer saved by grace through faith. And since the latter is the only way to be saved, I conclude that you are no longer saved; because you are seeking to enter in through the works of the law rather than through the righteousness which is of God by faith.

You cannot be saved by grace through faith and also be saved (maintain your salvation) by works.

You either maintain your salvation by a walk of faith or you do not maintain your salvation at all.

Therefore, the works that you do must be works of faith if they are going to save you.

And yet, it is not the works that save; but it is the faith that produces them that would truly be your salvation.

The works produced would be the evidence of a living faith in Jesus Christ; which alone saves you.

Because regeneration and renewal is a working of the Holy Ghost within me, that is not brought about by anything that I have done or will do. It was accomplished in the first place through my faith in Jesus Christ; and it continues to be a work in my heart through faith in Jesus Christ.

When we abide in Him, our lives will be different than when we were not born again and abiding in Him.

Now if we attempt to bear good fruit apart from abiding, all we will produce is dead works.

But if we focus on a relationship with Christ, the result will be that we produce good fruit accompanied by works that are living; because they stem from relationship rather than an attempt to earn continued acceptance before God.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Hi GH,
The devil did not exist in the O.T. the way we understand him in the N.T.

They did understand to some degree. If you look at the Book of Job (which is thought to predate the Torah--technically only the first five books of the OT) he appears much as we would think of him today--he taunts God and is the source of Job's affliction. What the O.T. saints thought was that God permitted Satan to do his evil deeds to test men--the same as today.

I can't recall any book in the O.T. that describes him as OUR enemy.

That is something of a given since Israel thought of themselves as God's Chosen Ones (the Elect). They identified with Yahweh.

As far as I can tell, the persons in the O.T. attributed everything to God...even evil.

So do we. God says He creates calamity. For the O.T. saints, they did not make a distinction between "what God permits and what He wills" (which I am not convinced is a Biblical notion). That might work as an apologetic for a Being who is not omnipotent, but I don't think that we have been given that "out" by God. He says He will have mercy for those He chooses to gain mercy. God is sovereign and He is not a man that He should lie. In the End, no one will say that God is not just. I trust that He holds all things in His hands and questioning His decisions will get us spinning our wheels, like Job.

Hell appears in the O.T. as the place of the dead.
sheoul
Gehenna
Hades

There is a lot of confusion on this point. What is translated as "hell" in our English-language Bibles is actually two different words: sheol --Hebrew for the "place of the dead," which is roughly equivalent to the Greek word, hades. Gehenna is Aramaic for "the Lake of Fire". Jesus used both of the words, hades and gehenna but the English translators made no distinction and called them both, "hell". Jesus' parable of the "Rich Man and Lazarus" from Luke 16, depicts hades exactly the way that the rabbis taught about the afterlife. The Jews listening to the parable would have found it consistent with their rabbi's teaching on the subject. It was thought that the "place of the dead" (sheol or hades) was divided into two sections with an unbridgeable chasm in between. In the parable, Abraham is speaking from the place of the righteous dead (known as "paradise" or "the bosom of Abraham") an Edenic place of beauty, comfort and peace. The rich man is in "the place of torment" (the other part of hades or sheol). The "place of torment" was thought to be a sort of jail where the souls of the unrighteous dead were kept (and punished) until Final Judgment. There were different levels, with punishment of increasing intensity, as one descended through the "place of torment". At the bottom, it was thought that there was a gate leading out to a road that those condemned to the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) would be forced to walk before being thrown into the Lake of Fire. There was also the "outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" which would exist outside the "camp of God"--the Kingdom of God on earth.

 

[Grailhunter]

They did understand to some degree. If you look at the Book of Job (which is thought to predate the Torah--technically only the first five books of the OT) he appears much as we would think of him today--he taunts God and is the source of Job's affliction. What the O.T. saints thought was that God permitted Satan to do his evil deeds to test men--the same as today.

That is something of a given since Israel thought of themselves as God's Chosen Ones (the Elect). They identified with Yahweh.

So do we. God says He creates calamity. For the O.T. saints, they did not make a distinction between "what God permits and what He wills" (which I am not convinced is a Biblical notion). That might work as an apologetic for a Being who is not omnipotent, but I don't think that we have been given that "out" by God. He says He will have mercy for those He chooses to gain mercy. God is sovereign and He is not a man that He should lie. In the End, no one will say that God is not just. I trust that He holds all things in His hands and questioning His decisions will get us spinning our wheels, like Job.

There is a lot of confusion on this point. What is translated as "hell" in our English-language Bibles is actually two different words: sheol --Hebrew for the "place of the dead," which is roughly equivalent to the Greek word, hades. Gehenna is Aramaic for "the Lake of Fire". Jesus used both of the words, hades and gehenna but the English translators made no distinction and called them both, "hell". Jesus' parable of the "Rich Man and Lazarus" from Luke 16, depicts hades exactly the way that the rabbis taught about the afterlife. The Jews listening to the parable would have found it consistent with their rabbi's teaching on the subject. It was thought that the "place of the dead" (sheol or hades) was divided into two sections with an unbridgeable chasm in between. In the parable, Abraham is speaking from the place of the righteous dead (known as "paradise" or "the bosom of Abraham") an Edenic place of beauty, comfort and peace. The rich man is in "the place of torment" (the other part of hades or sheol). The "place of torment" was thought to be a sort of jail where the souls of the unrighteous dead were kept (and punished) until Final Judgment. There were different levels, with punishment of increasing intensity, as one descended through the "place of torment". At the bottom, it was thought that there was a gate leading out to a road that those condemned to the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) would be forced to walk before being thrown into the Lake of Fire. There was also the "outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" which would exist outside the "camp of God"--the Kingdom of God on earth.

I am going to try to do this by item.
The Jews do not have a devil...and if I say period that is pretty close. Satan appears in the OT...mostly and nearly only in Job. The Jews see that as a senior angel entering the Holy Court of God and together they decide to test Job.

As far as I can tell, the persons in the O.T. attributed everything to God...even evil....
Well the Jews did not believe that Satan tempted anybody in the OT. The Jews believe that tempting and testing is from God.
Evil comes from People...Mostly in the OT evil was breaking one of the 613 Mosaic Laws. God cannot do evil because He defines good.

Hades, agree with the parable...but still Hades and its concept and visualization comes from Greek Mythology. In the earliest texts, Hades does not appear at all. Later on, like much later, they change the word from Sheol to Hades. Now you cannot call this a translational change. Both Sheol and Hades can be written here....see. They wanted to change the meaning to look like something closer to Hell. Now what do you say.

 

[justbyfaith]

Hell is a very real place of burning, with fire and brimstone and conscious torment for those who are being punished over their iniquities.

It is likened in the holy scriptures to the furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth; and, everlasting punishment.

See Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:46.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

This idea of the atonement came AFTER Jesus' death, formulated basically by Paul.

NO! You are badly mistaken. In the opening chapter of the Gospel of John, we see John the Baptist declaring, as Jesus walks toward him, "Look, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" (verse 29) Nothing in the New Testament makes any sense at all, if we cannot acknowledge Jesus in that role. Paul did NOT formulate the Atonement. It was always there speaking to us from the Old Testament! If you keep this up, both you and Grailhunter will fall into a ditch.

Here it is:
And again God never promised heaven to anyone in the NT. No one is talking about what they need to do to go to heaven and no one is fearful of Hell.

THAT IS A LIE. Please don't continue in this vein. To show you what a lie it is and this is just off the top of my head: Even a man ("the rich young ruler") outside the religious hierarchy says to Jesus, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" (Matthew 19:16).

Grailhunter, there is NO "secret knowledge" that stands against the word of God. They are all lies from the evil one. Why do you think Jesus calls Satan a liar and the father of lies? Do you not understand that Satan has always been active in perverting sound doctrine and throwing doubt on the word and the Word of God?

 

[Grailhunter]

NO! You are badly mistaken. In the opening chapter of the Gospel of John, we see John the Baptist declaring as Jesus walks toward him, "Look, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" (verse 29) Nothing in the New Testament makes any sense at all if we cannot acknowledge Jesus in that role. Paul did NOT formulate the Atonement. It was always there speaking to us from the Old Testament! If you keep this up, both you and Grailhunter will fall into a ditch.



THAT IS A LIE. Please don't continue in this vein. To show you what a lie it is and this is just off the top of my head: Even a man ("the rich young ruler") outside the religious hierarchy says to Jesus, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" (Matthew 19:16).

Grailhunter, there is NO "secret knowledge" that stands against the word of God. They are all lies from the evil one. Why do you think Jesus calls Satan a liar and the father of lies? Do you not understand that Satan has always been active in perverting sound doctrine and throwing doubt on the word and the Word of God?

 

[Grailhunter]

Calm down I changed that....God did not promise anyone in the OT heaven. One letter off and I get my head chopped off.

 

[Grailhunter]

Calm down I changed that....God did not promise anyone in the OT heaven. One letter off and I get my head chopped off.

 

[Grailhunter]

NO! You are badly mistaken. In the opening chapter of the Gospel of John, we see John the Baptist declaring as Jesus walks toward him, "Look, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" (verse 29) Nothing in the New Testament makes any sense at all if we cannot acknowledge Jesus in that role. Paul did NOT formulate the Atonement. It was always there speaking to us from the Old Testament! If you keep this up, both you and Grailhunter will fall into a ditch.



THAT IS A LIE. Please don't continue in this vein. To show you what a lie it is and this is just off the top of my head: Even a man ("the rich young ruler") outside the religious hierarchy says to Jesus, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" (Matthew 19:16).

Grailhunter, there is NO "secret knowledge" that stands against the word of God. They are all lies from the evil one. Why do you think Jesus calls Satan a liar and the father of lies? Do you not understand that Satan has always been active in perverting sound doctrine and throwing doubt on the word and the Word of God?

I am not talking about secret knowledge

 

[Grailhunter]

I am not talking about secret knowledge

NO! You are badly mistaken. In the opening chapter of the Gospel of John, we see John the Baptist declaring as Jesus walks toward him, "Look, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" (verse 29) Nothing in the New Testament makes any sense at all if we cannot acknowledge Jesus in that role. Paul did NOT formulate the Atonement. It was always there speaking to us from the Old Testament! If you keep this up, both you and Grailhunter will fall into a ditch.

I have no idea what you talking about here.

 

[Grailhunter]

NO! You are badly mistaken. In the opening chapter of the Gospel of John, we see John the Baptist declaring as Jesus walks toward him, "Look, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" (verse 29) Nothing in the New Testament makes any sense at all if we cannot acknowledge Jesus in that role. Paul did NOT formulate the Atonement. It was always there speaking to us from the Old Testament! If you keep this up, both you and Grailhunter will fall into a ditch.

I have no idea what you talking about here.

I don't mind if you want to discuss this...or not. But blowing your top and making accusations.....well it does not work well....does not prove anything....One item at a time and we talk it out or not. No matter how rude you get....not matter how much you blow your top...no matter the accusation I will not return the same to you. Try me!