Please explain this.

[GodsGrace]

Usually, if someone is trusting in their works to save them (or to keep them saved), it is safe to say (based on the teaching of God's word) that they are not saved; since they are trusting, to save them, that which cannot save.

So, let me get this straight:

If I'm trusting in my works and obeying God to KEEP me saved,
it is safe to say that I am not saved.

If I'm trusting in FAITH ONLY and not obeying God or doing anything for Him...then I'm saved because I'm NOT doing anything and am trusting only in Him?

Did I get that right?

I don't think Jesus agrees with you.
HE said we are HIS FRIENDS if we DO what HE COMMANDS.

Now, perhaps those of us who believe obedience to God will make us be lost should find out WHAT Jesus COMMANDS!

To listen to YOU, it seems like He commands nothing and this is NOT what He said.

John 15:14 Jesus stated:
"You are My friends If you do what I command you."

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh my! @GodsGrace is not saved! I am so sad! I am sorry GodsGrace! @justbyfaith was she predestined not to be saved?

I'm so worried right now GH.
What do you think I should do?
STOP OBEYING GOD?
Quit treating people in a nice way?
Stop helping my daughter out with her autistic daughter?
Maybe not clean the house anymore...or cook?

What else could I STOP DOING so that I will be saved??

I'm so confused....
I thought God wanted obedience and good deeds.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

well, you fear for some amorphous other bunch, that are not you, yes? What is your fear, for them?

Well, you rant against some amorphous bunch that are not you, yes? What is your rant, for them?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

thought you already met God, and had tea and everything?

Now we see darkly but then we will see face to face.

 

[Grailhunter]

Hi GH,
The devil did not exist in the O.T. the way we understand him in the N.T.
In the Old he was known as God's adversary....
I can't recall any book in the O.T. that describes him as OUR enemy.
As far as I can tell, the perons in the O.T. attributed everything to God...even evil. The did not attribute good to God and evil to satan as we now do. I do remind us that God allows that evil otherwise we'd be dealing with dualism.

Hell appears in the O.T. as the place of the dead. It might say the sleeping.
sheoul
Gehenna
Hades

What caused this change I can't say. I do know that the book of McCabees mentions prayers to the dead. Perhaps the place of the dead became more understood if they thought the dead could hear.

Also, we have the pharisees that believe in the afterlife...(about 200 BC)
and the Sadducees that did not. I've never thought to find out why.

I do wonder if Alexander the Great had anything to do with this...he did bring Hellenism to the area where the Jews lived...Israel I mean.

All these places have been translated as hell in the N.T.

It a better answer than I thought I was going to get. Although I have all the confidence in you. Big difference between Sheol and Hades and the place of torment that we call hell and Gehenna...figuratively. In the OT everyone, good and bad went Sheol and Hades and it was not a place of torment. And it would be wrong to translate them to Hell. It was a sequence of events that brought the Jews to a broader understanding of the spirit world. The main factor was the Persians...the ones that helped build the second Temple. What the Persians believed was not exactly what the Jews believed but they were exposed to the concepts of a place of torment and the battle between good and evil. As you say, Alexander was in deed a factor but mostly it was those converted to Christianity from among his officers and Greek rulers of Egypt Ptolemy I and II. Who were responsible for the Septuagint, and I dare say a certain amount of Greek Philosophy.

But still why didn't God offer heaven to His people? This is one of the clues to why everything changed and the human messiah king would not due.....the messiah had to be a God and it had to be the Son of God.

Not putting you two ladies on the spot...just food for thought....you two can figure it out.

 

[Grailhunter]

I'm so worried right now GH.
What do you think I should do?
STOP OBEYING GOD?
Quit treating people in a nice way?
Stop helping my daughter out with her autistic daughter?
Maybe not clean the house anymore...or cook?

What else could I STOP DOING so that I will be saved??

I'm so confused....
I thought God wanted obedience and good deeds.

Ya, I would just give up. You know in Hebrews it says that once you fall away you can not come back. Nice knowing ya! Ha ha

 

[GodsGrace]

It a better answer than I thought I was going to get. Although I have all the confidence in you. Big difference between Sheol and Hades and the place of torment that we call hell and Gehenna...figuratively. In the OT everyone, good and bad went Sheol and Hades and it was not a place of torment. And it would be wrong to translate them to Hell. It was a sequence of events that brought the Jews to a broader understanding of the spirit work. The main factor was the Persians...the ones that helped build the second Temple. What the Persians believed was not exactly what the Jews believed but they were exposed to the concepts of a place of torment and the battle between good and evil. As you say, Alexander was in deed a factor but mostly it was those converted to Christianity from among his officers and Greek rulers of Egypt Ptolemy I and II. Who were responsible for the Septuagint, and I dare say a certain amount of Greek Philosophy.

But still why didn't God offer heaven to His people? This is one of the clues to why everything changed and the human messiah king would not due.....the messiah had to be a God and it had to be the Son of God.

Not putting you two ladies on the spot...just food for thought....you two can figure it out.

Leaving for about an hour.
Church.
Be back later....

 

[GodsGrace]

Ya, I would just give up. You know in Hebrews it says that once you fall away you can not come back. Nice knowing ya! Ha ha

LOL

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, you rant against some amorphous bunch that are not you, yes? What is your rant, for them?

ha, hilarious, ok, have a nice day, great getting cherry picked by you, to death, tks
i could maybe list all of the implied questions you ignored, so you could ignore them again, if you like?

 

[bbyrd009]

Now we see darkly but then we will see face to face.

it's like pretending to have a convo with HR, lol. At least he has an excuse?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

ha, hilarious, ok, have a nice day, great getting cherry picked by you, to death, tks
i could maybe list all of the implied questions you ignored, so you could ignore them again, if you like?

Okay.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

it's like pretending to have a convo with HR, lol. At least he has an excuse?

I will take it that this means I was the only one enjoying our conversation.

 

[bbyrd009]

If you have seen Me, you HAVE seen the Father. Have I been with you so long and you still do not know Me? Before Abraham was, I am.

ha, yet you cant wait to leave earth, and meet God face to face right

 

[bbyrd009]

I will take it that this means I was the only one enjoying our conversation.

oh, we were never having a conversation, i dont think? More like i have been providing fodder for your jumping-off-points maybe

 

[bbyrd009]

Mmm...yes, my born againness does imply the hope of going where God is and seeing Him face to face and not being on this crappy circle any more. So...yes, my born againness does have that hope.

hey, sounds like life, more abundantly to you? Then go with that, ok?
keep pretending that life, more abundantly and death, more abundantly are equal, and nevermind all those pesky refs you keep avoiding then, ok with me ok

 

[stunnedbygrace]

ha, yet you cant wait to leave earth, and meet God face to face right

Well, yeah Byrd, as I said before, I don't want to be here any longer than necessary. But if you want to mock someone who hurts to see war and child abuse and animal abuse and the horrors that men do to each other, go on. Its okay.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

hey, sounds like life, more abundantly to you? Then go with that, ok?
keep pretending that life, more abundantly and death, more abundantly are equal, and nevermind all those pesky refs you keep avoiding then, ok with me ok

To the best of my knowledge, I haven't avoided or ignored any references you've brought up. Of course, where you've accused me of digging pits for others but then refused to say what pits I had dug when asked, if those are what you're talking about, I asked and you refused to clarify, so, those pits you see me furiously digging for others have been avoided by you when asked, not me.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

You said I'm not saved.
This is not acceptable.
YOU do not know who is or isn't saved.

I did??? When?? How would I know that??

WHO on this forum ever said we're under the law?

You did! You said that whoever doesn't agree with you is "lawless"!

Maybe you'd like to hear from those that learned from the Apostles to see what THEY thought about works? You know ... the same persons who put together the bible.

I already have--and they are not infallible you know. The French Huguenots (Protestants) were so angry over some of the things that Irenaeus wrote that they trashed his tomb in Lyons.

We are not under THE LAW, but we are still required to do good works/deeds, to which are called from the beginning of time.
Ephesians 2:10

Yes, but here's the thing--as much as a pastor might like to order their parishioners to "good works" of his choosing, in reality, the good works were prepared by God for His children and they need to wait til they know that it is what He wants them to do.

The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. . . . He who keeps them will be glorified in the kingdom of God. However, he who chooses other things will be destroyed with his works. Barnabas (c. 70-130), 1.148, 149.

Why would you quote extra-Biblical works to me when I think you must have surmised that I would only accept quotes from the Bible?

We are justified by our works and not our words. Clement of Rome (c. 96), 1.13.

I have NEVER said that we are justified by our words (or our works). We are justified on the basis of our faith in the completed work of Christ on the Cross. Clement of Rome was mistaken. Again, I only accept the Bible as being authoritative. Reading what the saints have written down through the centuries is fine but they are NOT the word of God, which is the only basis for faith and practice. Are you a Roman Catholic??! If so, I am not surprised that we have many areas of disagreement.

. . . that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that you are indeed the members of His Son. . . . Faith cannot do the works of unbelief, nor unbelief the works of faith. . . . The tree is made manifest by its fruit. So those who profess themselves to be Christians will be recognized by their conduct. . . . It is better for a man to be silent and be [a Christian], than to talk and not be one. Ignatius (c. 105), 1.51-55.

Ignatius was a fallible human being--just like us.

Therefore, brethren, by doing the will of the Father, and keeping the flesh holy, and observing the commandments of the Lord, we will obtain eternal life. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.519.

Again with the quotes from outside the Bible??! How would any of that convince me of anything? Nothing but confusion comes from an obsessive interest in the writings beyond the Bible--there is a reason why the Bible is the Bible. Have you ever looked into how the Bible came to be the Bible?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

oh, we were never having a conversation, i dont think? More like i have been providing fodder for your jumping-off-points maybe

Okay.

 

[bbyrd009]

To the best of my knowledge, I haven't avoided or ignored any references you've brought up. Of course, where you've accused me of digging pits for others but then refused to say what pits I had dug when asked, if those are what you're talking about, I asked and you refused to clarify, so, those pits you see me furiously digging for others have been avoided by you when asked, not me.

okay