Please explain this.

[justbyfaith]

[1Th 5:23-24 KJV] 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it].

[Heb 10:14 KJV] 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

[1Jo 3:9 KJV] 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.



[1Jo 3:7 KJV] 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

[1Jo 3:3 KJV] 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

[1Jo 2:6 KJV] 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.



[Jde 1:24 KJV] 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

[2Pe 1:10 KJV] 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

[1Jo 2:10 KJV] 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I don't think anyone but me is a true believer anyway? Where do you get that from anything I have said?

Did you or did you not imply that "Grailhunter" is not a believer?

You are trying to prove that I am somehow a false teacher. What I teach is plain to see in the following thread.

If you are teaching Entire Sanctification while we are in our mortal flesh, you ARE a false teacher.

That is your personal opinion that God calling us to holiness is a heretical doctrine.

That is how you twist things. I NEVER said that God does not call us to holiness! But, He knows that we will never achieve sinless perfection while here on earth in our mortality.

Have you considered 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, and 1 John 2:6? What about Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, and 2 John 1:10. And of course you have probably weaseled your way around 1 John 3:9, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, and Hebrews 10:14 (kjv).

I have "weaseled" my way around 1 John 3:9??? You have neglected the first part of the verse: "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." The key to understanding the verse is to take ALL of 1 John into consideration. Yes, we are freed from habitual sin, as exists among those who are the "sons (and daughters) of disobedience". But to say that we can achieve sinless perfection while in our mortal flesh would deny what John is saying in 1 John: 1:8.

This is what we are talking about now; but previously my statement that was responded to had to do with the fact that the way to life is narrow; and that was identified by someone as gnosticism. But Jesus Himself taught that the way to life is narrow.

Again, you twist! What is gnostic is the insistence that we can achieve sinless perfection in our mortal flesh--that is to bring Jesus Christ down to our level. He will ALWAYS be the ONLY ONE who ever achieved sinless perfection in His flesh.

#1, I do not believe that every other believer is condemned to hell. #2, your accusation against me that I am gnostic is not based in any kind of reality. I believe and confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

There are many types of gnostic lies, just as there are MANY types of gnosticism. Irenaeus spoke of (and fought against) five different types of gnosticism. What you have cited is not the only gnostic lie. Yes, the Apostles were already engaged in fighting against gnosticism. The most prominent example is when John says that he saw Him with his own eyes and touched Jesus with his own hands.

That is a lie from the pit of hell. In John 8:31-36, Jesus taught the doctrine of entire sanctification, or freedom from sin. He said that those who sin are the slaves of sin; and that if the Son sets you free you will be free indeed.

We ARE free--none of us has to sin--but we do. Can you truly say that you never sin? Do you never even have a bad thought?

Actually it is quite the opposite. Just like the evil one to call God's doctrine the doctrine of the evil one. If you die in your sins, you will not go to heaven.

Our sins have been forgiven though the cleansing of the Blood of the Lamb.

So, in all actuality he lived a holy life, but only paid lip service to being a sinner?

You took that quote out of its context. The man I was speaking of was anything BUT holy. I made that clear in what I wrote.

Indeed he has. he is even using you to try to tell people that if they live a holy life they are under his sway. he is even using you to try to promote his doctrine that you must continue to walk in slavery to sin in order to be saved.

I never said ANY such thing and I think you know that. That makes you a liar.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

[1Th 5:23-24 KJV] 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it].

[Heb 10:14 KJV] 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

[1Jo 3:9 KJV] 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.



[1Jo 3:7 KJV] 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

[1Jo 3:3 KJV] 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

[1Jo 2:6 KJV] 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.



[Jde 1:24 KJV] 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

[2Pe 1:10 KJV] 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

[1Jo 2:10 KJV] 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

You forget the lessons of the Book of Job. God called Job "blameless--a man of complete integrity" (Job 1:8). Yet, ultimately, God found sin in Job and scolded him for it.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

If that seems far-fetched to someone that he could even promote such a doctrine and have people believe in it; nevertheless people are believing in it. It goes like this: if, in order to become a Christian, you must admit that you are a sinner, then if you stop being a sinner (per 1 John 3:9), you cannot therefore confess that you are a sinner and continue to be saved by the same confession.

That is completely twisted. You go on trusting in your own "holiness" to get you into heaven. I'll trust the Blood of Jesus to cleanse me of all unrighteousness.

Pro 4:18

, But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

And do you think Solomon (who wrote that) was righteous--let alone righteous enough to get into heaven without grace through faith?

 

[justbyfaith]

Did you or did you not imply that "Grailhunter" is not a believer?

Even if I did do that (which is irrelevant), how does that translate into I am the only one who believes and is saved?

If you are teaching Entire Sanctification while we are in our mortal flesh, you ARE a false teacher.

That is a lie. And in order to make it, you have to deny that the King James Version is the word of God. Because it clearly teaches, in 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), that the Lord will indeed sanctify us wholly while we are still in this mortal flesh.

That is how you twist things. I NEVER said that God does not call us to holiness! But, He knows that we will never achieve sinless perfection while here on earth in our mortality.

And of course you are again applying the misnomer to entire sanctification. We do not achieve sinless perfection...we can come to the place of being sanctified wholly. This means that the element of sin is rendered dead within us, so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 7:8, Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:6).

I have "weaseled" my way around 1 John 3:9??? You have neglected the first part of the verse: "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." The key to understanding the verse is to take ALL of 1 John into consideration. Yes, we are freed from habitual sin, as exists among those who are the "sons (and daughters) of disobedience". But to say that we can achieve sinless perfection while in our mortal flesh would deny what John is saying in 1 John: 1:8.

The doctrine of entire sanctification, as I have defined it immediately above, is not in contradiction to 1 John 1:8.

Also, you forget that I am kjv-only/superior (and that this is a major part of our discussion). If the kjv is wrong on this (and also if you are right), then 4 centuries of Christians went to the lake of fire. And the kjv does not render it "practice". The only sense in which the word is accurate is in that it is talking about whether we sin practically; and is not speaking of whether we do or do not have indwelling sin. But it is not faithful in the teaching that results from it, that individual sins no longer count; but you must live twenty years committing the same sin over and over again before you can realize that you are a sinner in need of a Saviour.

Again, you twist! What is gnostic is the insistence that we can achieve sinless perfection in our mortal flesh--that is to bring Jesus Christ down to our level. He will ALWAYS be the ONLY ONE who ever achieved sinless perfection in His flesh.

Again, I do not preach sinless perfection...I preach entire sanctification...or, mortification (see Romans 8:13 (kjv)).

What you have cited is not the only gnostic lie.

It is the primary factor, according to 1 John 4:1-3, and 2 John 1:7, of determining whether someone is caught up in any form of gnosticism.

We ARE free--none of us has to sin--but we do.

If we do sin, then we are not free...for whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin (John 8:34).

Our sins have been forgiven though the cleansing of the Blood of the Lamb.

If they are indeed cleansed, then they are no longer a part of us; they have been washed away. Understand what this means.

You took that quote out of its context. The man I was speaking of was anything BUT holy.

Of course. I was merely making a point. The very next thing that I quoted from you was the context; and I made my point in response to that quote. The first quote merely helped me to make that point.

I never said ANY such thing and I think you know that. That makes you a liar.

I love you, too!

And of course, the devil (as well as those who take on his nature) is the accuser of the brethren.

I don't know why you are attacking me like this. I have not attacked you; except, perhaps, in direct response to your initial attack. Therefore I am the sheep and you are the wolf. I am a lily among thorns.

You forget the lessons of the Book of Job. God called Job "blameless--a man of complete integrity" (Job 1:8). Yet, ultimately, God found sin in Job and scolded him for it.

Actually, have you read the book of Job enough times to know what it is about? The only sin that the Lord found in Job was that he knew that he was righteous; and when he justified himself rather than God for that they didn't know what was happening behind the scenes, Job was caught in a catch-22 that he could not get out of. Job mainained his integrity even though it made God look unrighteous. Thus Job sinned. But only because he knew that he was righteous and wouldn't back down when his "comforting friends' tried to tell him that the suffeirng he was going through was because of some sin in his life.

But actually, Job 1:8 says this:

Job 1:8, And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Also, Job 1:1 says,

Job 1:1, There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

So Job was perfect and upright.

When we apply these terms to man, do we define them differently than when we apply them to God?

 

[atpollard]

I do not believe we can be sinless on earth, but most people do not believe this. What is worse, especially because it is a pervasive belief within Christianity today, is total depravity. It is a lie straight from Hell sent to short circuit our sanctification. Even after we are justified and supposedly free from our complete worthless ‘worm’ status, you still hear Christian’s false humility at full volume - “I am nothing, it is the power of Jesus! I am filth and worthlessness; it is only Him within this pitiful shell called me! Any accomplishment or spiritual growth or transformation is Jesus’s work merely witnessed by me!” The result is far from living a victorious life. We are supposed to be is a transforming relationship with Jesus and encouraged towards loving perfectly like Him by the Holy Spirit He provided for us! Even in our sinful days, we were creatures who were created good.

If I were trying to destroy the work of God on Earth, I would promote dualism (distract people from loving others by teaching them to label Gods good creation with positive and negative opinions), personal entitlement, and simultaneously, total depravity.

Is this site 100% anti-Calvinist?
I feel like the last Calvinist in the world every time I visit here.

You are aware that the “I am a worm” view is a distortion of the teaching of Total Depravity (which is also known as Total Inability) and was a point of agreement between the Synod of Dort and the Remonstrances of Classic Arminianism. It simply denies Pelegianism (man has no Adamic sin) and Semi-Pelegianism (man is capable of obeying the law and living a sinless life without supernatural aid from God). Total Depravity recognizes that we are born with an Adamic curse that effects our total being (body, mind and soul) and is called Total Inability because this “sin nature” makes man totally unable to save himself.

See the Heidelberg Catechism for one of the earliest and simplest explanations of Calvinism, and you will find little that you disagree with if you agree with scripture. It is the baggage added onto the TULIP shorthand in the 19th Century that generates the bulk of the heat.

(Although the nature of Predestination has been controversial since the beginning.)

 

[justbyfaith]

That is completely twisted. You go on trusting in your own "holiness" to get you into heaven. I'll trust the Blood of Jesus to cleanse me of all unrighteousness.

If you are cleansed from all unrighteousness, how is it that you think you would not be made holy by the same work of the Holy Ghost? Is it not the same thing?

And do you think Solomon (who wrote that) was righteous--let alone righteous enough to get into heaven without grace through faith?

Whether Solomon was righteous or not (a case can be made that he was in the beginning years of his life), Proverbs 4:18 is included in the holy scriptures, which are said to be given by inspiration of God, and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God might be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

 

[justbyfaith]

Is this site 100% anti-Calvinist?
I feel like the last Calvinist in the world every time I visit here.

You are aware that the “I am a worm” view is a distortion of the teaching of Total Depravity (which is also known as Total Inability) and was a point of agreement between the Synod of Dort and the Remonstrances of Classic Arminianism. It simply denies Pelegianism (man has no Adamic sin) and Semi-Palagianism (man is capable of obeying the law and living a sinless life without supernatural aid from God). Total Depravity recognizes that we are born with an Adamic curse that effects our total being (body, mind and soul) and is called Total Inability because this “sin nature” makes man totally unable to save himself.

See the Heidelberg Catechism for one of the earliest and simplest explanations of Calvinism, and you will find little that you disagree with if you agree with scripture. It is the baggage added onto the TULIP shorthand in the 19th Century that generates the bulk of the heat.

(Although the nature of Predestination has been controversial since the beginning.)

So, on Total Depravity, I fall 1/2 and 1/2.

I believe that mankind is born in sin and cannot obey God or come to Him apart from the drawing effect of the Holy Spirit.

However, a man can be given a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:25-27) so that he becomes even capable of obeying the Lord.

Thus, while I hold that Total Depravity is a reality, I do not hold that it is true across the board.

See 2 Corinthians 5:17.

2Co 5:17, Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The old things being the old lifestyle of sin, the new things being the new life of holiness that we will live as the result of having the indwelling Holy Ghost.

 

[justbyfaith]

On Unconditional Election, I fall 1/2 and 1/2.

I believe that God does elect us (thus that half defined as "election" is correct); but that He elects us according to foreknowledge. So it is conditional on whether a man receives Him from God's eternal perspective.

On Limited Atonement, I fall 1/2 and 1/2. I believe that Jesus died for the sins of those who will receive Him only; but that He died for the sins of anyone who will receive Him.

On Irresistible Grace, I fall 1/2 and 1/2. But this particular thing would take more (extensive) explanation, which I will not go into in the current moment.

On Perseverance of the Saints, I fall 1/2 and 1/2. I do not take it to the extreme of it being OSAS in my mind; I hold that God will preserve the holiness of those who abide in Him.

 

[justbyfaith]

Love never fails (1 Corinthians 13:8). And, God is Omnipotent (Revelation 19:6).

Therefore, the only conclusions possible are Limited Atonement or Universalism. If God exercises His love and Omnipotence to bring people into His kingdom, then Universalism is the reality. But if He doesn't, then there are those on whom He does not exercise His love and Omnipotence (i.e. Limited Atonement).

I suggest that God does not exercise love and Omnipotence on anyone, in the sense of forcing them into the kingdom.

because the answer to the dilemma is free will.

Universalism is not the reality, because of such verses as Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, and Matthew 25:46 (i.e. hell is a very real place that people go to).

Limited Atonement is not the reality; because Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:6): He wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4): and He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

So then, neither one is true. therefore is God not Omnipotent and loving?

No; the answer is that in His love He gave to every man a free moral agency; and that His love will not fail to give to every man the thing that he chooses for himself by the time he reaches the end of life.

Thus Irresistible Grace is not the reality, in the sense of Limited Atonement calling only those people whom God has ordained to be saved without fail.

However, I do believe that if we, as believers, love on those whom we desire to be saved without fail, then that love will not fail to bring them into the kingdom; because that love that is exhibited will show them the reasonabilty of making the right choice.

But it has been said that the Holy Spirit is a gentleman and will not force salvation on anyone. Therefore the only force we can exhibit is to truly love those whom we wish to save so that they will realize the error of their ways and also desire to be in the presence of that love that we exhibit to them throughout eternity.

Therefore I am also 1/2 and 1/2 on Irresistible Grace.

 

[justbyfaith]

A little more on Perseverance of the Saints (as well as the concept of entire sanctification):

1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

[1Th 5:23-24 KJV] 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it].

One of your problems is that you don't understand what "blameless" means. And you don't know what sanctified means.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Whether Solomon was righteous or not (a case can be made that he was in the beginning years of his life), Proverbs 4:18 is included in the holy scriptures, which are said to be given by inspiration of God, and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God might be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

That doesn't answer my question. I was not questioning the use of the Scriptures to form doctrine, or reproving, correcting and instructing Christians. The word, "perfect" in the KJV does NOT mean what you are representing.

 

[aspen]

I understand that total depravity has been distorted. I acknowledge the original teaching is not as exaggerated. However atpollard, the original teaching has been hijacked by hypercalvinists who teach helplessness and worthlessness from the pulpit. This is especially damaging to people who have experienced abuse in their childhood.

I do not represent this site, btw - I am Catholic

 

[justbyfaith]

One of your problems is that you don't understand what "blameless" means. And you don't know what sanctified means.

It means "without blame".

So the question is, is blamelessness only before man, or can it also be before the Lord?

(For Jesus said to make the inside of the cup and platter clean, that the outside may be clean also).

Eph 1:4, According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Some would teach that this means that God looks at us with rose-colored glasses and considers us to be holy and blameless in His sight; and in this they teach that God is basically blind to our sins.

However, it is written,

Heb 4:13, Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Therefore, if we are without blame before Him, we are without blame even with Him seeing every nook and cranny of our character.
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And of course, sanctified means to be conformed into the image of Christ.

Scriptures:

Rom 8:29, For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Eph 4:12, For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13, Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

I was not questioning the use of the Scriptures to form doctrine, or reproving, correcting and instructing Christians.

Sorry, it seemed that you were questioning the profitability of Proverbs 4:18 as something that can be applied to us; because you questioned the righteousness of the human author.

So, again, Proverbs 4:18 says,

Pro 4:18, But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

in light of the fact that when we turn to the Lord for salvation, we must repent of our sins, that is, we must make a 180-degree turn away from the former life and habits.

Therefore in walking in a new direction, there will be increasing righteousness in our lives.

In heading toward a new country, when we cross the boundary into the new country, we are not located any more in the old country.

I would suggest to you that physical death would not be the immediate result.

 

[justbyfaith]

The word, "perfect" in the KJV does NOT mean what you are representing.

It is represented perfectly by the English definition of the word...otherwise the translators of the kjv would have chosen a different word.

 

[Enoch111]

Is this site 100% anti-Calvinist?

No. There are a couple of holdouts.

I feel like the last Calvinist in the world every time I visit here.

In that case it is best to avoid TULIP and discuss something else.

On the other hand there are several Calvinist forums around and you would probably enjoy them more.

 

[Grailhunter]

It is represented perfectly by the English definition of the word...otherwise the translators of the kjv would have chosen a different word.

I have read over the conversations you have had with us….it has a pattern. At times I have atheists talk to me about religion. These are conversations I do not pursuit. At this point, I get a kick out of them…I grin….because these are people that although they do not believe in God and / or fervently think that science answers everything…Yet they present themselves to me knowing who and what I am…hoping that I have a magic pill that will make them stop believing this sad reality that has taken their mind. To believe that there is no God…no good….that when they die their consciousness will fade into oblivion. So likewise here, you present yourself before 3 people that you know, you have no chance of pulling the wool over their eyes….no chance…no chance with your shotgun scriptures, and no chance to match wit, yet you persist with this sad perversion that you call a religion. I believe you are here hoping someone can save you from your own beliefs…..I suggested that you talk with the ladies, but it does not seem that it is helping you….so you tell me why you continue to talk? The ladies are not exorcists, so it maybe time for you and your familiar demon to move along and haunt someone else.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

It means "without blame".

In the Old Testament, "blameless" is translated from the Hebrew words tam or tamin (root word, tamam) and it means "complete" or "sound"--it definitely does NOT mean "sinless". (Many of the other translations give the word "complete" for the reason that it gives the better sense of what is meant.) To be morally "complete" meant to live a life of integrity--but no one thought that someone who was "blameless" was sinless--else why the compulsory Temple attendance at the Feast of Atonement? In the New Testament, it meant to be in Christ whose sacrificial death atoned for the sins and justified the individual before God. Again, it did not mean sinless. Who but Jesus ever walked the earth sinless? You need to answer this question, not only for your own good but the good of any you would presume to teach.

Some would teach that this means that God looks at us with rose-colored glasses and considers us to be holy and blameless in His sight; and in this they teach that God is basically blind to our sins.

However, it is written,

Heb 4:13, Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Therefore, if we are without blame before Him, we are without blame even with Him seeing every nook and cranny of our character.

So--what? That hardly proves that we look great--it means that He is great and has covered our sin. This is what the New Testament teaches. You say you like the Book of Romans but you need to go back and take a look at it.
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And of course, sanctified means to be conformed into the image of Christ.

Uh-no. It does not. In its basic sense, it means to be "set apart" for God's use. It also can mean "consecrated" (basically, the same thing) or purified for God's use. But, when it is applied to humans it does not mean that they live sinless lives.

...in light of the fact that when we turn to the Lord for salvation, we must repent of our sins, that is, we must make a 180-degree turn away from the former life and habits.

Who is arguing with that? Certainly, I am not. Before Christ comes into a life, there is habitual sin because the person doesn't relate to the idea that they are sinning. After Christ, they become conscious of their sin as the reproving work of the Holy Spirit brings them to repent from offending God. But, it does NOT mean that they will ever be sinless in this life.

Therefore in walking in a new direction, there will be increasing righteousness in our lives.

Again, no argument from me on that score. You seem to be changing your theology into one that is more orthodox Christian.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is a lie from the pit of hell. In John 8:31-36, Jesus taught the doctrine of entire sanctification, or freedom from sin. He said that those who sin are the slaves of sin; and that if the Son sets you free you will be free indeed.

Hi JBF,
There is a fine line to be tread here.
Some say we do not sin after salvation.
This is not true. Simple experience shows us this.

Some say we will always sin.
This depends on what one means by sin...we will always sin,
but this does not EXCUSE sin OR means that we can LIVE IN SIN.

So the line is fine.
To say either of the two above is slightly off...but still true.

If you studied church history, you would find that the Early Fathers had a problem with baptism. They believed persons that were baptized would actually and literally NEVER SIN AGAIN. They found this to be untrue by experience alone. We all still sin even after salvation and baptism.

I don't see anywhere in John 8:31-36 where Jesus says that we will never sin again...WHERE does He say this in those verses?

He DOES say that we will be truly free in Him.
Truly free from what?
Truly free TO what?

We will, among other things, be free from THE BONDAGE to sin....the bondage to our SIN NATURE...this is quite different from saying that we will never sin again.
Romans 6:16-20
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

We are not to PRESENT OURSELVES to satan as slaves to satan...
But to GOD, as slaves to God. THEN we will be free of the bondage to our sin nature.


Saying that we never sin again is VERY discouraging to Christians who will come to believe this and stop even TRYING to be perfect...because it's impossible!
We should be declaring that a life of sin shows a problem...
but sin does not.

He also stated at one point, If you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins. (John 8:24)

I would rather not die in my sins, how about you? But what state must my heart be in to not die in my sins? Is it not what is spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), and 1 John 3:9?

Agreed re John 8:24,,,,
Jesus is God and we're to believe in Him for our salvation.
Regarding 1 Thes 5:23-24
Hebrews 10:14
1 John 3:9

You really need to know the difference between sinning or sin....in the sense of ONE SIN (since sin can also refer to the sin nature...different idea) and LIVING A LIFE OF SIN,,,,as I hear some Christians claim they can do because they are OSAS in theology.

So...we're to discourage a LIFE OF SIN....
We're to encourage Christians and not make them believe they must be PERFECT, which will make some leave Christianity due to the impossibility of being perfect.