Please explain this.

[bbyrd009]

JBF,
The idea of entire sanctification in this life, as espoused by John Wesley, for example, has been abandoned even by holiness churches.

Guess why?

Because NO ONE can become sinless in this life.

It's IMPOSSIBLE.

But we still should keep trying....but if we expect to become perfect, we have a long fall coming eventually that might take our faith away...AND THAT is what the enemy wants.

• 

imo if you stop "trying to become sinless" entirely and just confess when you "sin" every time that all takes care of itself i guess. But i dont expect Christians to suddenly start confessing or anything, dont get me wrong

 

[bbyrd009]

Charles Wesley was an English leader of the Methodists most widely known for writing about 6,500 hymns. His younger brother John Wesley was the founder of the Methodism. He came to America and was part of the First Great Awakening movement.

ah, so
there's the guy gets credit for putting most of us to sleep then i guess

might not be easy to see, might be kinda hard to admit, but see we broke free from the crown for a reason, right, only then we got buddybuddy again, huh, and now pretty much everyone is back in love with the monarchy, yeh

 

[Grailhunter]

ah, so
there's the guy gets credit for putting most of us to sleep then i guess

might not be easy to see, might be kinda hard to admit, but see we broke free from the crown for a reason, right, only then we got buddybuddy again, huh, and now pretty much everyone is back in love with the monarchy, yeh

Hey they had a good singing voice.

 

[Taken]

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

Okay, then how do you explain this?
He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God. Check it out in Genesis 15;4-6 below..

Faith IN a man .... Glorifies the "MAN"

Righteous WORK... a Righteous man DOES,
Glorifies "GOD ".

The WHOLE POINT, of a man being ABLE (through Jesus' Offering of His Body unto Death), was FOR a man to BE, "MADE" WHOLE, "Before his Physical Bodily Death"...

AND thus have the "POWER" (of the indwelling Spirit), TO DO WORKS, ACCREDIT God for FOR THE WORKS, which inturn Glorifies God and Magnifies Him ...
FOR the Purpose of OTHER MEN to OBSERVE your "good works", and OBSERVE it is BECAUSE OF GOD, you are ABLE, with Gods Power to Achieve "good works".

In modern society...Governments and Men take the "credit" for Helping OTHERS....
(Temporarily and cohersing them into a lifestyle of being a lifelong burden).

In Scripture it is taught...to be generous, lend a hand to others, be a cheerful giver, and Be quick to reveal your generousity is BECAUSE of God, giving God the Credit, to prosper you with More than you need, so you are ABLE to give to others in need of a helping hand.

The Concept is ... that others may come to understand, THEY ALSO could come and Learn, and trust to Believe, and Become Blessed IN the Lord, and become the Helping hand, INSTEAD of the Burden.

Yes...a man IN FAITH, has a place WITH THEE Lord God...Yet IF the man has DONE NOTHING with his power to do Good works to Glorify God, there shall be no REWARD for the mans LACK of effort, to use the Power God has provided the man.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

The doctrine of entire sanctification is obviously the contention over which newer Bible translations were created (in an attempt to ultimately defeat that doctrine in the church as being generally and publicly accepted). I believe that the devil hates this doctrine so much that he did what he could to take this doctrine out of every new translation; but that he could not succeed at doing this with the established kjv (though it seems to be going out of vogue...still, the truth is most often never popular).

As such, the doctrine may even be essential to salvation...for is it not the devil's goal to destroy the souls of men by keeping from them the doctrine that would save them if they knew it?

men do not have souls to destroy per se wadr, and dont you ever get tired of this circuit-riding to the same, tired towns, where there can never be any resolution, jbf?

Your church has been burned to the ground, bro, the fire is basically even out now, they are abandoned hulks, shadows of their former selves, and you want to argue semantics and procedure? I mean its ok with me ok, i'm getting rich selling marshmallows bro, and all my children are safely in other countries, they will not be saddled with your debt, which is going to come due real soon, ok. There's real assets, still, backing that debt, ok.

only see now we have elected The Liquidator, right, the Bankruptcy King, he is Our Boy now right

see youre right i guess that the truth is never popular, huh, wanna hear the truth from Scripture again? We could even Quote It from your festering, syphilitic KJV if you want, right

 

[GodsGrace]

imo if you stop "trying to become sinless" entirely and just confess when you "sin" every time that all takes care of itself i guess. But i dont expect Christians to suddenly start confessing or anything, dont get me wrong

Yes, well, I've always said Christianity is simple but some make it difficult.

 

[GodsGrace]

Charles Wesley was an English leader of the Methodists most widely known for writing about 6,500 hymns. His younger brother John Wesley was the founder of the Methodism. He came to America and was part of the First Great Awakening movement.

Well, that makes sense.
The other poster loves music.
We still have one more brother to go....
Am waiting for @Rollo Tamasi to teach me something new.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, well, I've always said Christianity is simple but some make it difficult.

ha well life, more abundantly is pretty simple i guess but ppl doing Death, More Abundantly will not face up to that, and as has been demonstrated now ad nauseum i guess is that we have very simple tests in Scripture for these types, who are free to believe what they like but they dont have to be free to teach it!

so imo if someone poseuring as a teacher will not address certain Scriptures, and starts deflecting the minute you do, and you still allow this one in your midst with their mouths open, then you get what you allow, right, what you bless will be blessed and what you curse will be cursed, sure enough. See thats prolly just another way to say you reap what you sow, and prolly not what we might wish it meant, at least right now?

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, that makes sense.
The other poster loves music.
We still have one more brother to go....
Am waiting for @Rollo Tamasi to teach me something new.

i goto a Methodist "Chatauqua" in Port Clinton, OH some years, didnt go this year, but its rockin right now, a great way to travel and pretend imo. If you have money anyway. Oh and youre white enough
lol

i guess they were once everywhere, only a couple left now? A magical summer for kids and adults alike, if you got several thousand dollars, worth every penny imo. Just keep the life, more abundantly secret to yourself if you get it before you go, ok, great ppl but solidly DMA, note how they have it worked out so no actual dollars have to change hands, so they can pretend better, and etc

 

[GodsGrace]

i goto a Methodist "Chatauqua" in Port Clinton, OH some years, didnt go this year, but its rockin right now, a great way to travel and pretend imo. If you have money anyway. Oh and youre white enough
lol

i guess they were once everywhere, only a couple left now? A magical summer for kids and adults alike, if you got several thousand dollars, worth every penny imo

Well, I may be white enough
Like Michelle Pfieffer...White Gold...
But look where I live!
Ain't goin' there anytime soon.
And how come Ain't gets apostrophed if it's not even a real word?

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, I may be white enough
Like Michelle Pfieffer...White Gold...
But look where I live!
Ain't goin' there anytime soon.
And how come Ain't gets hyphenated if it's not even a real word?

ha, always wondered about that hyphen myself lol, dunno. Guess google does prolly

 

[bbyrd009]

they are a blast, ok, but i say again if you go dont be Quoting them parts of the "Word" that do not comport with Death, More Abundantly, ok, unless you wanna see how quick nice ppl can turn on you lol. These are basically all the like upper-middle-class, the ones riding you to hell, ok

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

jbf: "It means that we are no longer walking according to the sins of our past life outside of Christ; and also, that we are not allowing indwelling sin to control the way that we live (see Romans 8:13)."

LC-- If that is all you mean, I can readily agree with it. But, you say that with one breath and then take it away with your next breath.

JBF--It would appear that you think this means that there is a gradual progression into holiness but that the goal can never be obtained.

LC-- That goal will never be obtained as long as we live in these mortal bodies and are tainted by sin in any way. Your theology appears to be that which has been called Wesleyan Holiness Theology. The proof that it is in error is that success in becoming "entirely sanctified" while in mortal flesh has rarely (or never) been possible--and for those who think they have achieved it, there is a consequent suffocating pride. I do not believe that God has called us to a joyless (read grim) pursuit of an unachievable goal. It is just another way that humans have invented to "work" their way to heaven. While Wesley actively sought to provide a counter-balance to the fatalism of Calvinism and the often libertine "radical grace" notions of Luther, I think it failed to produce the greater love for God and one's fellow man that 1 Corinthians 13 expounds so beautifully. I was raised in a Methodist church and saw the hypocrisy that such a theology spawns, in addition to a certain hardness of heart and pride in those who feel that they have "arrived."

JBF--That one can be entirely sanctified on the earth is clear from the kjv's rendering of 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24.

LC--One could interpret it that way in any of the translations. in fact, that passage in the NASB provides better support for your theology than does the KJV.

JBF-- But if you don't like that, you can certainly heap up for yourself a teacher, in the translator of some other translation, to tell you what your itching ears want to hear.

LC-- You have apparently judged me as an "infidel" having never even met me to see my walk in Christ and knowing nothing about my desire to seek always the truth. Please read 1 Corinthians 13.

Not sure why, but the quote function does not appear to be working properly--can anyone help?

 

[GodsGrace]

Not sure why, but the quote function does not appear to be working properly--can anyone help?

I was liking what you said...
not re the quote function.

I also seem to get conflicting remarks from @justbyfaith ....
I think the problem is the difference between sinning....
and living in sin.
I can't really speak to him anymore....

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

JBF,
The idea of entire sanctification in this life, as espoused by John Wesley, for example, has been abandoned even by holiness churches.

Guess why?

Because NO ONE can become sinless in this life.

It's IMPOSSIBLE.

But we still should keep trying....but if we expect to become perfect, we have a long fall coming eventually that might take our faith away...AND THAT is what the enemy wants.

• 

That is what I have been trying to tell JBF from the beginning of our discussion but it falls on deaf ears, I'm afraid.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I was liking what you said...
not re the quote function.

I also seem to get conflicting remarks from @justbyfaith ....
I think the problem is the difference between sinning....
and living in sin.
I can't really speak to him anymore....

Yeah--I think I'm done too.

I just checked and it appears that the quote function works with your posts, and those of everyone else but JBF. Whatever he does or does not do seems to make it difficult for others to respond. In any case, I decided that you are wise in your decision to avoid speaking to him.

 

[GodsGrace]

For the most part, I am not going to forsake giving the scriptural support for my statements....because people are watching who don't know the holy scriptures; and also, there are those here who have even in the past few days called me a heretic and a liar. Therefore I feel that I need to back up my statements with scripture, in order that the sound doctrine that I bring may be accepted in spite of those accusations.

If you're going to give scriptural support, please explain WHY you're posting a verse....I can't read your mind and you don't always explain it first.

I thought you said you were Nazarene. The Nazarene Church teaches that the second benefit amounts to being sanctified wholly, as defined in 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv). This is where I got it from.[/QUOTE]
I'm not Nazarene. I'm not Catholic.
I'm a Christian. I do believe that the Nazarene church is a very pure church.
If you check, you'll find that they do not teach entire sanctification as Wesley taught. I won't repeat this again. There's too much repeating with you and this conversation will have to come to an end.

Maybe you should stop reading the bible and start taking some theology classes with a good church? That might be of some help. The bible is not an easy book to understand if you want to dig deeper. You seem to be doing this on your own and you're not understanding some concepts.

I would suggest to you that you study the Early Church Fathers...the ones who were taught by the Apostles. This might be of help to you.

Once being purged from sins, the people would have had no more conscience of sins (Hebrews 10:2). That Jesus has purged our sins (where the blood of bulls and goats failed to do so) is evident from Hebrews 1:3.

The sanctified life is a life that is free from practical sinning. It is a life where you are walking in the repentance that God has granted to you; and do not commit in the practical sense the things that you did that were sinful before you became a believer. It indicates total and complete surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.



I'll do my best. But I am still going to attempt to back up my words with scripture. If you don't understand what I'm saying, ask the Holy Spirit for illumination; because much of what I'm saying is from God's word and God's word requires illumination from the Spirit if we are going to understand it.

Yes, well, I dislike saying this, but you should stop reading God's word and study theology.

You are NOT understanding God's word if you think you could go thru life without sinning. Do you realize that JOHN, who had spent years with Jesus, states in 1 John that if you say you are without sin you are a liar?
1 John 1:10
1 John 2:1 IF anyone sins...means that one CAN sin.

The answer that I have given you is the traditional answer.

What answer? How about putting the question in your reply?

Says who?

Says who what?
How about putting the question in your answer?

Indeed it was.

indeed it was what?
You sure don't make this easy.

Tell me, please, how it is that you think that these two things do not reconcile. To me, they are speaking of one and the same exact thing.

There's a difference between:
sinning

and

living a life of sin.

Explain the difference between 1 John 2:1
and 1 John 3:9

They contradict each other in your theology.

It means that we do not have to live according to who we used to be. We are not bound so that we cannot do anything but sin. We are made capable of walking in consistent holiness and righteousness through the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

You're right, we do not have to live according to who we used to be.
But does that mean that we are made capable of walking in CONISISTENT holiness and righteousness through the indwelling of the Holy Ghost?
BTW, it's Holy Spirit.

So YOU never sin?
Because the Holy Spirit indwelling in you STOPS you from ever sinning?
I hope you realize that this means that all us po' folk that sin do NOT have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Only special persons such as yourself are granted this privilege put aside only for the very few select persons to whom God has given this incredible gift.

How do you figure?

How do I figure what?
How about putting the question in your answer.

Unless you can come up with some NEW information, I believe we should end this conversation and you should begin a serious study in theology. Perhaps online or at a good church...Try it.

 

[bbyrd009]

There's too much repeating with you and this conversation will have to come to an end.

"conversation" lol, priceless. I dont see where you have got a single engagement yet bro? Following your attempts here has been a great lesson, repeated once again though, ty. It is literally comedy to read the "replies" to you, i tell ya what. You may as well be speaking Greek i guess lol

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah--I think I'm done too.

I just checked and it appears that the quote function works with your posts, and those of everyone else but JBF. Whatever he does or does not do seems to make it difficult for others to respond. In any case, I decided that you are wise in your decision to avoid speaking to him.

I'd like to make it clear that it's not that I want to avoid him.
The problem is that we're just repeating the same thing over and over and this doesn't even help those reading along anymore. Most of the time I post for those reading along anyway...there are many.

Also, his replies are curt and I don't know what he's replying to and I don't have the time to go back up to my post for each question. This takes a lot of time away from the reply,,,,to which I just didn't reply in my last post to him.

I DO firmly believe that we're to read scripture and the Holy Spirit will speak to our heart and God does speak to us on an individual basis. BUT that is only for us.

Also, I'd say that if one wants to really understand the bible, some type of bible study or theology has to be part of one's learning. We can't just read the bible on our own and think we understand everything. There's language to contend with and the different culture and the fact that it was written TWO THOUSAND years ago. Sometimes I think we lose track of how long ago this is!

Why would Jesus tell us to confess our sins if we're supposed to not commit sins?
What does BE PERFECT mean? Did Jesus really want us to be perfect?
Does He really want us to sell everything and become a disciple?
I wonder if JBF has sold everything since he takes the N.T. so literally.
WHICH parts ARE to be taken literally?
Which are NOT?

There's too much to know for us to think we could learn all this on our own.
YOU know about the language of that time...you certainly didn't learn this from reading the bible alone.

The salvific part of the bible is simple to understand.
If we want to go deeper...we need help.

I hope @justbyfaith could understand this because he is a smart fellow.

 

[GodsGrace]

"conversation" lol, priceless. I dont see where you have got a single engagement yet bro? Following your attempts here has been a great lesson, repeated once again though, ty. It is literally comedy to read the "replies" to you, i tell ya what. You may as well be speaking Greek i guess lol

Agreed !