Please explain this.

[atpollard]

ah, and that should read Gehenna btw, not hell, dunno if you are aware, or someone else might not be anyway.

Yup ... but what is Gehenna?

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I believe a person must come to some agreement with God.
A church could tell their parishoners whatever they want...I've heard incorrect beliefs in every church I can think of...but we also have a brain and it should not be washed by a person/pastor/priest, whatever.

Re Timothy....Paul was speaking to him as a pastor...but we should always show, externally, that we are separate from the world.

Agreed. I have known pastors who are actually more worldly than their congregants! In the case of certain scandalous mega church "pastors," almost any of the men in their churches would behave better than they do--power and wealth corrupts. I agree that we are all responsible for reading and studying the word of God, so that we will not be "blown about by every wind of doctrine". William Tyndale went to the stake for his strong conviction that the people need to read the Bible in their own language. That is why I use the NLT almost exclusively with children and new Christians. The "KJV-only" crowd really do a disservice to those who have difficulty with the language of the KJV--it is not modern English. I grew up with the KJV and am not uncomfortable with familiar verses in it, but the NT Epistles in the KJV are very difficult for new Christians (and even more mature ones) to understand what is being said.

I've been asked that: How many works does it take.......
It's a silly question.
I could then ask...how much faith does it take? We even have a poster here that believes there are different types of faith...how could we then be sure we have the right one?

Not really a silly question. Works can be measured, as in, "...last week, I fed this many poor people, and helped this many old ladies across the street", etc. What means do we have to measure faith? God can and does--Jesus said that if we had faith "...as small as a mustard seed...". In the verse previous to that (Luke 17:5), the disciples asked Jesus to "Increase our faith". Then, after the comment about the mustard seed and the uprooted mulberry tree, Jesus makes what some take to be cryptic comments about servant-hood. They don't see the connection. I think that Jesus was telling them that obedience to Him and the Father brings greater trust/faith and consequently, greater faith will bring even greater works. That is why the wise parent teaches obedience--that it is simply not acceptable that they disobey. One shouldn't use harsh discipline to make the point, but the point must be made if the parent cares about the faith-life and future character development of the child.

It's not about HOW MANY. It's an attitude.
God is God Almighty.
We serve HIM now and are free from the evil one.
We do our best, we can't do more.
But we should be teaching that obedience IS necessary and is not an option.
If someone understands this to mean 100% obedience, well then they don't understand Christianity, do they? So imagine if they hear that no matter how they live, they will still be saved !

I agree! But, it is not works which gain eternal life for us (except maybe in a round-about way, if greater faith is produced) and it is not works which keep us in His Kingdom. It is ALL of faith.

Is suicide self-loathing?
Is it deep depression and the desire to make it go away?
Is it wrong thinking?
I certainly don't know. I know that it doesn't glorify God and that
if a person could take their own life they are very desperate.

I would agree with your thoughts on suicide. It is certainly a result of soul-sickness--a spiritual illness. What some would call "shame-based identity" definitely plays a part. There was a young man who posted here not long ago--some will remember him--I hope and pray that he is okay. He grew up as a Christian (in a legalistic church) and got into pornography, during his teen years. Many of us tried to help him--he said he was contemplating suicide because he had lost all hope that he would be able to overcome his "detestable" sin. He had tried to reform several times but would, it seems, always return to the pornography. He said that he used to care that he felt that he had lost his faith because he was no longer concerned about displeasing the Lord and had lately even been doubtful about the claims of Christ altogether.

Shame is from the evil one and it is very destructive. Satan tempts us to disobey and then he heaps on the shame afterward which weakens our will to resist his temptations and so on, in a very damaging cycle. Stressing obedience for strong individuals is fine but when it is stressed over and over with weak individuals, it just leads to self-loathing. The Bible tells us in 1 Thessalonians 5:14: "...we urge you to warn those who are lazy. Encourage those who are timid. Take tender care of those who are weak. Be patient with everyone." I have seen the results of failing to admonish those who are lazy and rebellious and also those who have suffered harsh discipline as children. Neither is beneficial to the life and spiritual/physical health of a child. I am not ever surprised when it results in disaster later. "Train up a child..." That admonition works both ways. We should train children in the way that they should go, certainly but if we allow them to grow up without loving training, or in our impatience with them, use harsh "discipline," they will, unfortunately tend to follow that lack of kind training into adulthood.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Yup ... but what is Gehenna?

Gehenna is Aramaic (the language spoken by those living in Judea--Greek and Latin were also spoken) is also known as the Lake of Fire--the final destination of those who are utterly condemned. Jesus spoke of both Gehenna and hades (the "place of the dead"--roughly the Greek version of the Hebrew, sheol) but, unfortunately our English translators rendered both as "hell". Hades and Gehenna are two different places although they are related. It was thought that Hades was divided into two sections--one part for the righteous dead (called paradise or "the bosom of Abraham") and the other for the unrighteous dead (called, the "place of torment"). The two parts were said to be divided by an unbridgeable chasm. This is exactly the scene that Jesus paints in His parable of the "rich man" (sometimes called "Demas" but that simply means "rich man" in Greek) and Lazarus from Luke chapter 16. Some rabbis commented that at the lowest level of the "place of torment" there was a gate leading out to a road that those condemned to the Lake of Fire would be forced to tread on their way to being tossed into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna).

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I AGREE!!
This is why I worry for their soul.
This is why I try so hard to make them realize their error.
I don't think it even works....
But, you know:
One plants, one waters and God gives the growth.

I do as well, but, I find that prayer often works where teaching fails. Those who are still dead in their trespasses and sins are often deaf to any further blandishments (they are listening to those of Satan anyway). But, prayer that God would somehow work a miracle through His Holy Spirit (who, after all, comes to "convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment") is often successful--especially if one enlists other Christians in that prayer. One church my husband and I attended had regular prayer nights (maybe a couple of times a year) to pray for the lost relatives, friends, etc. of the church members. Even if it did not result in moving those relatives (was almost always for relatives) closer to Christ, it was moving and encouraging for those whose relatives were being prayed over.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Hi N,
I'm not to keen on number 4. I think we should have that attitude anyway.

I mean, I know a little bit about eschatology....I just don't think I could speak to it with any kind of knowledge that goes beyond the simple.

I do believe the end is coming.
I believe Jesus is coming back ONE TIME. When the world ends.
Those in their graves and also we will be taken up off the earth and taken to heaven.
I don't believe in any 1,000 year reign of satan and then he comes back and taunts humans again.
I don't believe in the rapture. I believe the one taken means something totally different and some theologians do agree with this.

That's about all I know.

I think you mean the 1,000 year reign of Christ, don't you? The Bible tells us in the Book of Revelation that there will definitely be a time of Christ's rule on earth following "the time of Jacob's Trouble" (the Tribulation). Isaiah indicates that during that Kingdom, that long life will return (he says that "only sinners" will die as young as 100 years old and that it will be a time of unparalleled peace and prosperity. Ezekiel too, in chapters 40-48, speaks of the same time.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yup ... but what is Gehenna?

a place in Erets, mr pollard

 

[justbyfaith]

ah, the whole world's sins are forgiven, Christ has covered them all bro.

Christ has forgiven only the sins of those who believe in Him and have appropriated what He did for them on the Cross....see Romans 3:25.

Acts 3 19 specifically states that rebound--"repentance" to you--is required for that, and you dont "believe" that works are required for salvation, see?

Therefore, the whole world's sins are not forgiven, but repentance is required...

Now repentance is not exactly the same thing as works...while it will produce good works. Repentance is a change of direction, it is not a work of righteousness; it is simply turning around and walking in the other direction.

and in parting lemme ask if that is so then you are saying that afterward all your righteousnesses are golden?

See Revelation 19:8 (kjv). Now that verse speaks of the righteousness of saints...not the righteousnesses of saints.

We can seek to obtain favour with God through righteousnesses....which are by the law...or we can seek to obtain favour with Him through righteousness...which is by faith.

Hey wait, did you just say again "doing what is right and good" after all that yack about works not being important? Man, i'm trying real hard here bro, but that is just straight comedy, sorry.

I think that 1 Corinthians 2:14 really does apply here. You are not understanding because you are thinking of it with the natural mind.

We are forgiven of all of our sins, past, present, and future, and therefore we are not condemned by disobedience...but for the born again believer, this is not a prelude to disobedience. We obey the promptings of the Holy Spirit (love) not out of fear of condemnation, but because we know that we are saved and are thankful...we want to give something back to Jesus over the fact that He has bestowed a free gift upon us. We do not give back in paymemnt for His gift...we give back as a free gift to Him from us...because He has given us the spirit of generosity and we want to serve Him over the generous gift that He has given us.

so strange to me how you can blithely change have faith to "believe on (h)im" when it suits you

How is having faith and believing different from each other? I always considered them to be one and the same thing in principle.

That is why I use the NLT almost exclusively with children and new Christians. The "KJV-only" crowd really do a disservice to those who have difficulty with the language of the KJV--it is not modern English. I grew up with the KJV and am not uncomfortable with familiar verses in it, but the NT Epistles in the KJV are very difficult for new Christians (and even more mature ones) to understand what is being said.

As someone who holds to the kjv-superior position, I believe that the kjv has the final autbority...while other translations, such as the NLT, NIV, and others, can help us in our understanding of the kjv when we come back to it.

What I find is that other versions offer up watered-down renderings to specific verses that are clear about certain doctrinal postions that are important to the Christian faith...but when you go to the other translations, it does not prove it so easily. In fact, it seems that someone delibaratley changed it so that faithful doctrine would not be proven by the verse in question.

But other translations do prove useful in helping to understand the meaning of verses that are hard to understand in the kjv...once you get the understanding from the other translation, there is no need to go back to that translation every time you read the verse...you have the understanding and you can apply it while you are reading your kjv. And also, the only reason why anyone should go to another translation is if the meaning in the kjv is unclear to them...there is no need to start consistently reading some other translation that is watered-down...you will receive malnourishment at the very least from such a practice.

 

[GodsGrace]

ha as if right lol

Why not?
I never tried that talking thing BTW.
Have to stop somewhere, or forget about being modern...
we'll be living in the FUTURE!

 

[GodsGrace]

forgot all about that naive thing huh bl. Talktome talktome talktome talktome, all played out bro, tell me did you feel that?
:)

Nice.
But he reminds me of a depressed Mika.

They look kind of the same.

What do you think?
You see it? You see it?

 

[GodsGrace]

Gehenna is Aramaic (the language spoken by those living in Judea--Greek and Latin were also spoken) is also known as the Lake of Fire--the final destination of those who are utterly condemned. Jesus spoke of both Gehenna and hades (the "place of the dead"--roughly the Greek version of the Hebrew, sheol) but, unfortunately our English translators rendered both as "hell". Hades and Gehenna are two different places although they are related. It was thought that Hades was divided into two sections--one part for the righteous dead (called paradise or "the bosom of Abraham") and the other for the unrighteous dead (called, the "place of torment"). The two parts were said to be divided by an unbridgeable chasm. This is exactly the scene that Jesus paints in His parable of the "rich man" (sometimes called "Demas" but that simply means "rich man" in Greek) and Lazarus from Luke chapter 16. Some rabbis commented that at the lowest level of the "place of torment" there was a gate leading out to a road that those condemned to the Lake of Fire would be forced to tread on their way to being tossed into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna).

LOL
I do believe @atpollard knows what Gehenna is or where it is or both.
He uses the same method I use sometimes which is to ask a question to make someone think....and I get answers from others who think I was really asking.
But it's still good to post for those that may not now.
Words are never wasted.

 

[atpollard]

a place in Erets, mr pollard

So "don't be afraid of people who can bury your body, but fear God who can bury your body and soul" ... got it.
I don't think that I want you for MY bible teacher ... "Hell" was a better translation than your inaccurate explanation of a Hebrew word with another Hebrew word:

[H776] ʼerets, eh'-rets; from an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth.

FYI:
What Is Gehenna?

 

[Episkopos]

Gehenna is Aramaic (the language spoken by those living in Judea--Greek and Latin were also spoken) is also known as the Lake of Fire--the final destination of those who are utterly condemned. Jesus spoke of both Gehenna and hades (the "place of the dead"--roughly the Greek version of the Hebrew, sheol) but, unfortunately our English translators rendered both as "hell". Hades and Gehenna are two different places although they are related. It was thought that Hades was divided into two sections--one part for the righteous dead (called paradise or "the bosom of Abraham") and the other for the unrighteous dead (called, the "place of torment"). The two parts were said to be divided by an unbridgeable chasm. This is exactly the scene that Jesus paints in His parable of the "rich man" (sometimes called "Demas" but that simply means "rich man" in Greek) and Lazarus from Luke chapter 16. Some rabbis commented that at the lowest level of the "place of torment" there was a gate leading out to a road that those condemned to the Lake of Fire would be forced to tread on their way to being tossed into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna).

Actually Gehenna in Hebrew is Gey Hinom..the valley of Hinom...which is outside the dung gate of Jerusalem in the south western corner of the walled city. It is a place where garbage was burned.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

So "don't be afraid of people who can bury your body, but fear God who can bury your body and soul" ... got it.
I don't think that I want you for MY bible teacher ... "Hell" was a better translation than your inaccurate explanation of a Hebrew word with another Hebrew word:

[H776] ʼerets, eh'-rets; from an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth.

FYI:
What Is Gehenna?

Yep.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Actually Gehenna in Hebrew is Gey Hinom..the valley of Hinom...which is outside the dung gate of Jerusalem in the south western corner of the walled city. It is a place where garbage was burned.

Yes, I knew that but I was trying to keep my reply as brief as possible. The Valley of Hinom isn't really that relevant to us--more to the people of Jerusalem as they would have known about it.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

LOL
I do believe @atpollard knows what Gehenna is or where it is or both.
He uses the same method I use sometimes which is to ask a question to make someone think....and I get answers from others who think I was really asking.
But it's still good to post for those that may not now.
Words are never wasted.

I thought he might be a new Christian and might not know. But, in case anyone didn't know, I was glad to supply what information I had. :)

 

[farouk]

Yep.

Eretz is also a term used in Hebrew to refer to the historic land of Israel.

 

[GodsGrace]

I thought he might be a new Christian and might not know. But, in case anyone didn't know, I was glad to supply what information I had. :)

I for one had never heard about that gate that leads to the L of F.
(in Hades)

 

[GodsGrace]

I thought he might be a new Christian and might not know. But, in case anyone didn't know, I was glad to supply what information I had. :)

Sometimes we get little bits of information.
I hate to post it though unless I'm sure it's right.

Where Jesus was crucified is called Golgatha.
It means The Place of the Skulls.

SOME believe that the head of Goliath was buried there and that's why it has this name.

If anyone reading along can confirm this, it would be nice to know.
But it's one of those bits of info that don't really matter.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Sometimes we get little bits of information.
I hate to post it though unless I'm sure it's right.

Where Jesus was crucified is called Golgatha.
It means The Place of the Skulls.

SOME believe that the head of Goliath was buried there and that's why it has this name.

If anyone reading along can confirm this, it would be nice to know.
But it's one of those bits of info that don't really matter.

I had never heard or read that--interesting though, if true.

 

[farouk]

I had never heard or read that--interesting though, if true.

Golgotha is a particularly grim sounding name, befitting what happened there...