Please HELP Dan. 2:45

[lforrest]

To All,

Has anyone noticed that the "mystery" of GOD's Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE remains unsolved? Certainly there have been denials as to the INTELLIGENT DESIGN of this sequence; there have been attempts to accure this sequence to anyone but GOD (presumably so that they can deny disobedience of Scripture); and there were tangents which attempted to divert attention from the question. But in all these "contributions" to this Topic, NONE were able explain why GOD specified the 4,3,5,2,1 sequence.

In some circles, if an individual did not know an answer they would say: "I don't know." But it would seem that in this "community" we've seen every response except: "I don't know." Which is in contrast to when Jesus did not know the day or the hour, he said HE DID NOT KNOW. So is there a lesson to be learned here? Are we to judge the "prophets" as Scripture demands? And do we judge righteously?


1 Cor. 14:29
Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.

Dan. 2:45
... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold ...


With Best Regards,
DD

Could it be the conversion of nations we see here?

Iron - Constantinian shift - In the territory of the romans - Early 4th century
Bronze - Theodosian decrees - In the territory of the greeks - Late 4th century
Clay- Missionaries - all over the world - Until Present day
Silver - The territory of the Persian empire- Turkey, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Egypt (excluding overlap from Neo-babylonian empire)
Gold - The territory of Neo-babylonian empire - Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Jerusalem

 

[DaDad]

Could it be the conversion of nations we see here?

Iron - Constantinian shift - In the territory of the romans - Early 4th century
Bronze - Theodosian decrees - In the territory of the greeks - Late 4th century
Clay- Missionaries - all over the world - Until Present day
Silver - The territory of the Persian empire- Turkey, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Egypt (excluding overlap from Neo-babylonian empire)
Gold - The territory of Neo-babylonian empire - Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Jerusalem

Hi lforrest,

Thanks for your thoughts, but it seems you are answering a different question than asked. -- As a side note to your premise, be aware that Daniel was called to prophecy to the nations. As such I would argue that there is no religious, social, Jewish, or other aspects to these prophecies. (Please be aware that Chapter 9 is not a "Daniel" prophecy, but a "JEREMIAH" prophecy.")

And back to the question as asked, (even with your premise), is there a reason that GOD provided the sequence Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE even with your "Early 4th century; Late 4th Century; Present day?


With Best Regards,
DD

One question? does the order of the text read the same in Hebrew. The order in which the objects are not important. Now the first group we see is how the statue was built, which was according to Daniel's God given view. The issue is based on Jesus coming and putting all nations past and present under his feet. I do not critic you for your interest in learning the bible.
the question remains in mind , why do you want to know. Now it could be you are learning for a purpose. Your next step is translation in Hebrew.

One thing we know is all the nations mentioned by Daniel about 90% are past. Now is the time to watch Turkey. It is said Gog and Magog are on East and West of Turkey. Northern nations will join against Israel (future). Your friend am I.

Hi brodav9,

Thanks for the note, -- which "Retrobyter" responded to. And toward that response, please be aware that a blue-print has many views, and where "Retrobyter" tends to focus on one view and discount a second view, the Designer intends that ALL views be incorporated into the final product. As such, I would maintain that the 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE is Intelligent Design which MUST be resolved in FULL COMPLIANCE with Scripture and History!

With Best Regards,
DD

PS Please be aware that your "90% number most likely presumes ancient fulfillments, which is incorrect. This book is at 90%, but ONLY because of fulfillments which are approximate to the 1900's.

 

[lforrest]

I think these are the order that God will put the nations under Jesus' feet from the beginning of time as in my premise. We are still in the clay stage umtill the full number of the gentiles come in. Or this could be purely an end time prophesy.

 

[DaDad]

I think these are the order that God will put the nations under Jesus' feet from the beginning of time as in my premise. We are still in the clay stage until the full number of the gentiles come in. Or this could be purely an end time prophesy.

Hi lforrest,

I'm confused. You apparently assert a 5,4,3,2,1, -- but GOD provides a 4,3,5,2,1, which is identified as Intelligent Design, much like the firing order of a GM 6-cylinder 1,4,3,5,6,2, which is ALSO Intelligent Design. As such, if you interpret Scripture using 5,4,3,2,1, or wire your distributor 1,2,3,4,5,6, NEITHER WILL WORK.

Have you read Post #1?

With Best Regards,
DD


PS
In your geographical presentation, please be aware that Babylon conquered many nations. Secondly, Medo/Persia conquered the same and MORE. And of course, Greece conquered the same and MORE AGAIN. And the Roman conquered the same and YET MORE AGAIN. And now the "divided" Empire of Clay (consisting of THREE SUPERPOWERS) maintains alliances of STILL MORE AGAIN.

And in each of these scenarios, Scripture does NOT define, substantiate, or conjecture any societal, religious, or Jewish centric premises. As such if you believe that there is such a premise, PLEASE provide your basis.

 

[DaDad]

Please allow that I mis-represented the firing order for the GM pre-LS series in-line engine which should have read: 1,5,3,6,2,4.

I hope no one was inconvenienced by my mistake.


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[lforrest]

DD,

Sorry for the delayed response. I don't see an issue with Jesus' spiritual conquests over the nations being in a 4,3,5,2,1 order. The empires may have overlapped eachother but you can handle the overlaps consistently to make a plausable scenario. you know history says a 4,3,5,3,1 order for the fall of these empires is incorrect, so what other choice is there than to assume it is a spiritual conquest.


Regards,
Lforrest

 

[DaDad]

so what other choice is there than to assume it is a spiritual conquest.

Hi lforrest,

#1. Literal
#2. Figurative
#3. Spiritual

I propose we use #1, having a grasp of the Designer's intent to distance the IRON (Roman Empire) from the CLAY ("divided" three superpowers) by inserting the BRONZE between them. Thus GOD would discount a 1,2,3,4a/4b, but using the 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE.


And if this is true, then History should substantiate that we indeed are a FIFTH Unique Empire, having the remnant of Roman Representative REPUBLIC Iron:

" ... and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation ..."


Or Scripture may or may not convey Intelligent Design.


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[brakelite]

Greetings. The statue of Daniel 2 sets the scene and is the basis for all subsequent discussion on the topic. The following visions do not change or alter what has gone before, they expound and expand, giving further detail. There are but 4 kingdoms. Only four. 4 metals (one later mixed), four beasts in Daniel 7.
Gold...Babylon....Lion
Sivler...Media-Persia...Bear
Bronze...Greece.....Leopard
Iron...Rome....mythical dragon type beast.
The iron began with the fall of the bronze kingdom Greece, thus can be only Rome. This Roman kingdom continues until all the kingdoms are utterly destrroyed at the second coming. This the statue attests to, and cannot be changed. However, because clay is introduced into the picture, we must therefore deduce that although Rome continues until the second coming, (there is no time gap between any of the statue's components) the clay added means that the Roman kingdom changes into another form. Thus while retaing its essential "Romeness", there is an added aspect we must identify. This can only be found in the Roman Catholic Church.
Daniel 7 agrees with this scenario. The fourth beast to come up had 10 horns, and an eleventh which arose after. The ten horns can be identified as the founding nations of Europe which hjad their beginnings on the break up of the empire in the 4th and 5th centuries. The eleventh "little horn" has for centuries been considered by Bible scholars to papal Rome (and Antichrist), arising immediately after the ten, and having a hand in the destruction of the 3. The RCC amalgamated many of pagan Rome's tenets into its religion, thus was the essence of pagan Rome continued into papal Rome and abides to this day.

 

[DaDad]

There are but 4 kingdoms. Only four.
Gold...Babylon.
Silver...Media-Persia
Bronze...Greece.
Iron...Rome.

Hi brakelite,

I'm not sure if you've followed the discussion starting in Post #1, but if you're correct then GOD made a mistake:

Dan. 2:45
... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold ... = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE

... and where I suspect neither of us believe that Scripture is wrong, I do not have an alternate explanation for GOD's Intelligent Design: 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE.


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[brakelite]

Here is the vision which God showed Daniel and what Daniel told the King ....

Daniel 2:31 ¶ Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32 This image’s head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Here is the interpretation of the vision:

36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

I would like to draw your attention to a couple of things. Earlier on you suggested that the order of verse 45 was to denote strength. Please note that verse 43 says that the clay is miry clay. Thus it is unworkable for any purpose in ceramics.It's just dirt. It is in fact the weakest of all the items on the list.

Now note also verse 38...thou art the head of gold...(1st kingdom)
Verse 39....after thee shall arise another kingdom....(2nd kingdom).....and another third kingdom....(3rd kingdom)
Verse 40....And the fourth kingdom.....(4 Kingdoms)
Verse 41....41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom ....(what Kingdom? Clearly this is speaking of the last Kingdom mentioned...the fourth Kingdom, Rome.)
....shall be divided;.... (History attests to this with its pages written in the blood of thousands across Europe)
.....but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron..... (Though divided the remains of the Roman empire was still a persecuting war-mongering entity which "as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise." This the papacy did throughout the dark ages.
....forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.....
Verse 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken....
Note that the presence of the clay brought weakness to the division, not strength. The weakness came in the form of apostate Christianity united with the state power, a church/state union ...the most egregious form of spiritual adultery since Ahab brought Israel under bondage to the gods of Jezebel.
Verse 43 ....And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. Again, history throughout the last 1500 years attests to the truith of the vision. Today, every royal house of Europe is related. Yet they remain divided, and shall always remain so. Several attempts have been made over the centuries to unite Europe with the Vatican as ruler. Charlamagne, Louis 14th?, Hitler. A superfiical unity can be found within the modern European Union, but there is and always will be an underlying division which shall never be healed. The popes of recent times have all attempted to unite Europe once again under the reagis of the Vatican. The European flag is testament to this, also the intense lobbying by popes for the legislations of all member nations to agree on Sunday laws. This latter matter they will eventually agree to, but the iron shall never mix completely with the clay.

Thus the clay/iron mix is not a seprate and distinct kingdom, but merely the historical division of the fourth kingdom. The iron of Rome which began with the dismantling of the Greek empire never was conquered...it may have disintegrated inwardly due to corruption in politics and morals, but was never conquered by another power. Rome remains to this day, only in another form. The Vatican. A church/state union mirroring the pagan/state unions of the pagan powers the characteriasics of which she inherited and incorporated into her false "Christian" counterfeit.

 

[DaDad]

... Earlier on you suggested that the order of verse 45 was to denote strength. Please note that verse 43 says that the clay is miry clay

Hi brakelite,

Others suggested that the order of verse 45 was "hardness" which I provided the position that CLAY can be harder than Iron, or softer than Iron. And furthermore what you suggest is a "squishy" clay, the NKJV says "ceramic":

Daniel 2:41 NKJV
... just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay.

But in either case, I would propose that there appears to be NO justification for presuming that the CLAY (ceramic) is softer than IRON and BRONZE, but harder than SILVER and GOLD.



Secondly, where you argue against the IRON, BRONZE, CLAY, SILVER, GOLD = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE, -- you have not provided an explanation for this Intelligent Design. So until you offer SOME explanation, the premise as proposed in Post #1 STANDS. Otherwise GOD made a mistake in the Daniel 2:45 sequence, and we all know that MEN make mistakes, -- but not GOD.



And finally, we are not bereft of fulfillment for this "divided" THREE-SUPERPOWER and UNITED NATIONS era, which consists of the Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.; Bear, Russia; Leopard (actually a Tiger), China; and "deadful" United Nations.


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[brakelite]

Does any explanation need to be provided? Maybe God set the order as is to deliberately negate any presumptous interpretations that a more orderly list would engender?
eg order of destruction, order of importance, order of strength etc...perhaps God changed the order in different verses to avoid the possibility of precisely what you are attempting? Note that verse 35 is a different order again.

 

[DaDad]

Does any explanation need to be provided?

Hi brakelite,

If you believe that GOD is arbitrary, capricious, confused, indecisive, befuddled, etc., then your point is taken. However, as suggested previously, if you wire the distributor on your GM pre-LS series engine 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, be sure to stand back. And before you exhaust your battery, please attempt 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2.

Note that verse 35 is a different order again.

As provided previously, if ALL the Designers VIEWS are not incorporated into the article, it is defective. Please do not produce defective product.



With Best Regards,
DD

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, DaDad.

Hi brakelite,

If you believe that GOD is arbitrary, capricious, confused, indecisive, befuddled, etc., then your point is taken. However, as suggested previously, if you wire the distributor on your GM pre-LS series engine 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, be sure to stand back. And before you exhaust your battery, please attempt 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2.



As provided previously, if ALL the Designers VIEWS are not incorporated into the article, it is defective. Please do not produce defective product.



With Best Regards,
DD

<Sigh.> When are you going to get it in your head that the ORDERS of verses 35 and 45 DON'T MATTER?! The order was given in THE DESCRIPTION OF THE STATUE! THAT was God's doing! THAT is the ORDER God gave to Nebuchadnezzar in His dream! The words of DANIEL later don't matter so much! Those were HIS words to the King, NOT GOD'S! Brakelite's post #110 was right!

NOT EVERYTHING WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE ARE GOD'S WORDS!

That is an IMPORTANT thing for you to learn! Would you say that what the serpent said to Eve was "God's words?!"
Genesis 3:4-5
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
KJV

They're written in the Bible! Does that mean that they are words to live by?! NO!!!!!! What you are claiming about verse 45 and the order presented there is a little like "Bible roulette." Y'know, like "Russian roulette" only with Bible verses instead? You pray, "God, show me what you want me to do," and you let your Bible fall open to a particular page, and with your eyes closed you set your finger down on a particular verse, and that's God's answer to you.

What if your finger happened to land here?

Matthew 27:5
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
KJV

And you try it again, and your finger lands here?

Luke 10:37
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
KJV

Would you indeed go out and hang yourself because "God told you to do it?"

(Don't tell me if you would. I'd lose what little respect I have for you.)

 

[DaDad]

the ORDERS of verses 35 and 45 DON'T MATTER

Hi Retrobyter,

I don't mind if you disregard Scripture. Everyone gets to choose whether they obey what GOD and history has provided. But where you've made your decision, (and in the words of the Grail Knight, -- choose poorly) why do you insist that others follow your ill advised lead?




1. The Feet of Clay is a separate and distinct KINGDOM:

Dan. 2:41
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided ...


2. The Feet of Clay is a DIVIDED kingdom:

Dan. 2:41
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided ...

Daniel Chapter 7
Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S
Bear, Russia
Leopard (actually a Tiger), China
"dreadful", United Nations


3. The Feet of Clay has a residue of IRON which is evident all three superpowers and most other governments in the world today:

Dan. 2:41
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided ...

... and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation under GOD, indivisible, ...






With Best Regards,
DD



PS RE: "Shabbat shalom"
If you prefer to defame your bretheren, please drop the "religious" greeting. It's like putting frosting on barnyard: "... what little respect I have for you ".

Philippians 2:3

3 doing nothing through faction or through vainglory, but in lowliness of mind each counting other better than himself;

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, DaDad.

Hi Retrobyter,

I don't mind if you disregard Scripture. Everyone gets to choose whether they obey what GOD and history has provided. But where you've made your decision, (and in the words of the Grail Knight, -- choose poorly) why do you insist that others follow your ill advised lead?




1. The Feet of Clay is a separate and distinct KINGDOM:

Dan. 2:41
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided ...


2. The Feet of Clay is a DIVIDED kingdom:

Dan. 2:41
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided ...

Daniel Chapter 7
Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S
Bear, Russia
Leopard (actually a Tiger), China
"dreadful", United Nations


3. The Feet of Clay has a residue of IRON which is evident all three superpowers and most other governments in the world today:

Dan. 2:41
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided ...

... and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation under GOD, indivisible, ...






With Best Regards,
DD



PS RE: "Shabbat shalom"
If you prefer to defame your bretheren, please drop the "religious" greeting. It's like putting frosting on barnyard: "... what little respect I have for you ".

Philippians 2:3

3 doing nothing through faction or through vainglory, but in lowliness of mind each counting other better than himself;

I'm not "disregarding Scripture!" I'm disregarding YOUR INTERPRETATION of Scripture! Quit "hiding behind the pulpit!" That's a COP-OUT! Stand on your own two feet and defend your position honestly like a man! It's YOU who is interpreting the Scriptures into all this malarky, not God! Don't blame HIM for the respect (or lack thereof) you receive!

One should simply say, "IN MY OPINION, (blah, blah, blah, blah, blah)...," and leave it at that! It's GARBAGE to try to make YOUR words "God's words!"

Look CAREFULLY, for instance, at your first point when you quote Daniel 2:41: You said, "The feet of (iron and) clay is a separate and distinct kingdom," but LOOK AT THE CONTEXT!!!
Daniel 2:36-43
36 "This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38 in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.
39 "After you, another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron — for iron breaks and smashes everything — and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
NIV

Daniel 2:36-43
The Interpretation — Babylon the First Kingdom

36 "This was the dream; now we will tell its interpretation before the king. 37 "You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory; 38 and wherever the sons of men dwell, or the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold.

Medo-Persia and Greece

39 "After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you, then another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth.

Rome

40 "Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces. 41 "In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay. 42 "As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle. 43 "And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.
NASU

Daniel 2:36-43
36 “That is what you dreamt, and now we will give the king its interpretation. 37 Your majesty, king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory; 38 so that wherever people, wild animals or birds in the air live, he has handed them over to you and enabled you to rule them all — you are the head of gold. 39 But after you another kingdom will rise, inferior to you; then a third kingdom, of bronze, which will rule the whole world. 40 The fourth kingdom will be as strong as iron. Iron can break anything into pieces, pulverize it and crush it. So just as iron can crush anything, this kingdom will break the other kingdoms into pieces and crush them. 41 Finally, you saw the feet and toes made partly of pottery clay and partly of iron; this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the firmness of iron, since you saw the iron mixed with clay from the ground. 42 Just as the toes of the feet were part iron and part clay, this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 You saw the iron mixed with clay; that means that they will cement their alliances by intermarriages; but they won’t stick together any more than iron blends with clay.
CJB

Daniel 2:36-43
36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
KJV

All of these versions note the same thing: all the previous kingdoms were NUMBERED! Why doesn't verse 41 call it the FIFTH kingdom?!

 

[DaDad]

Hi Retrobyter,

I'm not "disregarding Scripture!"

For the umpteenth time:

Why did GOD provide the Daniel 2:45 Intelligent Design sequence: the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE

You said, "The feet of (iron and) clay is a separate and distinct kingdom," but LOOK AT THE CONTEXT!!!
Daniel 2:36-43
... 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom;

Please read the verse which you cite.

Why doesn't verse 41 call it the FIFTH kingdom?!

Please find your answer in the Daniel 2:45, Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold, = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE.
Furthermore, does it discount numbering to say: "Here's the first gun I bought, then this was the second, this was the third, and this was the last one"? Are there REALLY only three guns per your argument?


And finally, are we not in an era which we find a "divided" Three-Superpowers and United Nations. And isn't there a remnant of Iron in this Feet of Clay?


... and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation under GOD, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."




Or we could be in some alternate universe where ROME still occupies that ancient geography, there is no Italy, there are no Three-Superpowers and a United Nations, and everyone imagines that which is not, as though it were.



With Best Regards,
DD

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, DaDad.

Hi Retrobyter,


For the umpteenth time:

Why did GOD provide the Daniel 2:45 Intelligent Design sequence: the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE




Please read the verse which you cite.



Please find your answer in the Daniel 2:45, Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold, = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE.
Furthermore, does it discount numbering to say: "Here's the first gun I bought, then this was the second, this was the third, and this was the last one"? Are there REALLY only three guns per your argument?


And finally, are we not in an era which we find a "divided" Three-Superpowers and United Nations. And isn't there a remnant of Iron in this Feet of Clay?


... and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation under GOD, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."




Or we could be in some alternate universe where ROME still occupies that ancient geography, there is no Italy, there are no Three-Superpowers and a United Nations, and everyone imagines that which is not, as though it were.



With Best Regards,
DD

Well, what if I said that GOD provided the 4, 5, 3, 2, 1 = FIVE sequence of Daniel 2:35?!

 

[DaDad]

Well, what if I said that GOD provided the 4, 5, 3, 2, 1 = FIVE sequence of Daniel 2:35?!

Hi Retrobyter,

Daniel 2:35
35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold ... = 4,5,3,2,1 = FIVE

Daniel 2:45
... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold ... = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE


It appears you are attempting to discredit verse 45 by employing verse 35. Conversely, you might be suggesting that I'm discrediting verse 35 by employing verse 45, -- for which I'm PERFECTLY happy complying with BOTH verses 35 & 45 sequences.

So the question to you is whether you will equally accept BOTH verses 35 & 45, and will explain the significance of EACH of the two INTELLIGENT DESIGN sequences. But if you can't, (or might provide a response which I might not concur with), then I'll gladly provide each Intelligent Design for the respective 4,5,3,2,1 & 4,3,5,2,1.


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, DaDad.

Hi Retrobyter,

Daniel 2:35
35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold ... = 4,5,3,2,1 = FIVE

Daniel 2:45
... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold ... = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE


It appears you are attempting to discredit verse 45 by employing verse 35. Conversely, you might be suggesting that I'm discrediting verse 35 by employing verse 45, -- for which I'm PERFECTLY happy complying with BOTH verses 35 & 45 sequences.

So the question to you is whether you will equally accept BOTH verses 35 & 45, and will explain the significance of EACH of the two INTELLIGENT DESIGN sequences. But if you can't, (or might provide a response which I might not concur with), then I'll gladly provide each Intelligent Design for the respective 4,5,3,2,1 & 4,3,5,2,1.


With Best Regards,
DD

Well, since I think you're CRAZY for even TRYING to explain the significance of each of the two "INTELLIGENT DESIGN sequences," why don't you just cut to the chase and provide them. (THIS ought to be rich.)