Please HELP Dan. 2:45

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DaDad

Member
Sep 28, 2012
541
3
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Hi Floyd,

Was on vacation for week, and now am back! :)

Floyd said:
DD:
"Where are the Christians, who can hear from the Holy Spirit and share with the greater body of believers? Do we only have the religious?"
This seems to imply that you think there is a hierarchy of believers, some who can, some who cannot hear from the HS!?
If that is the case, and you are one of the fortunate "hearers"; please enlighten those of us not so blessed.
Floyd.
First of all, Paul wrote in 1 Phil about those who use "religion" for their own selfish motives.

Secondly, GOD provides the five-fold ministry, from which 2 Cor 14 provides those contributions to the church, but we must be constantly aware of the "contributions" (i.e., distractions) from category #1. :)


Floyd said:
  1. A head of gold. (Babylonia)
  2. Chest and arms of silver. (Medo-Persia)
  3. Belly and thighs of bronze. (Greece)
  4. Legs of iron. (Rome)
  5. Feet part iron and clay. ( Probably Rev Chapter 13http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter13.html[SIZE=medium] )[/SIZE]
The feet of iron and clay #5 above, has not yet existed. That it will have initially 10 kings, and is at the lower extremities of the legs;
Regarding the Fifth empire of Clay, please allow the following three points:

1. The Feet "initially" is divided, but not into 10 kings, because that would be redundant, and GOD doesn't use two words when one will suffice. Thus we MUST expect that the Feet are simply divided between a structure typical of our 3-superpower world.

2. There is no extension of the "legs", other than the fact that the Roman empire was never conquered and replaced. It simply died. Thus the disparate kingdoms, fifedoms, and regions retained the Republic model, but were no longer Roman. As such, please find the Republic in most modern governments today, -- which DO NOT pay taxes to the occupant, (ITALY), of that ancient geography.

3. At the end of the empire of Clay the Feet WILL have a ten nation alliance consisting of the present FIVE Permanent Membership of the Security Council, plus the FIVE Nominated to Permanent Membership of the Security Council, = TEN.


With Best Regards,
DD
 

DaDad

Member
Sep 28, 2012
541
3
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shturt678 said:
Dan.2:45, "Stone" = "Kingdom of God" where the Godman Christ is the King = "Kingdom of Christ"
The Topic is Daniel 2:45, FIVE world empire scenario, wherein GOD presents the itemizations: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE. If you wish to have a conversation regarding any other aspects, please feel free to start a new Topic.

Otherwise please feel free to resolve what GOD's Intelligent Design, Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE, is intended to convey, -- as opposed to the "classical" interpretation wherein the presenters provide what appears to be a FALSE rendering of: 1,2,3,4a,4b.

DD
 

Floyd

Active Member
Feb 28, 2014
937
30
28
DaDad said:
Hi Floyd,

Was on vacation for week, and now am back! :)


First of all, Paul wrote in 1 Phil about those who use "religion" for their own selfish motives.

Secondly, GOD provides the five-fold ministry, from which 2 Cor 14 provides those contributions to the church, but we must be constantly aware of the "contributions" (i.e., distractions) from category #1. :)



Regarding the Fifth empire of Clay, please allow the following three points:

1. The Feet "initially" is divided, but not into 10 kings, because that would be redundant, and GOD doesn't use two words when one will suffice. Thus we MUST expect that the Feet are simply divided between a structure typical of our 3-superpower world.

2. There is no extension of the "legs", other than the fact that the Roman empire was never conquered and replaced. It simply died. Thus the disparate kingdoms, fifedoms, and regions retained the Republic model, but were no longer Roman. As such, please find the Republic in most modern governments today, -- which DO NOT pay taxes to the occupant, (ITALY), of that ancient geography.

3. At the end of the empire of Clay the Feet WILL have a ten nation alliance consisting of the present FIVE Permanent Membership of the Security Council, plus the FIVE Nominated to Permanent Membership of the Security Council, = TEN.


With Best Regards,
DD
Thanks your comments DD.
Floyd.
shturt678 said:
Thank you again for your response!

Dan.2:45, "Stone" = "Kingdom of God" where the Godman Christ is the King = "Kingdom of Christ"

Hope this helps - Old Jack

btw the 1st through the 5th kingdoms are already fulfilled in the Kingdom of Christ, Godman of course.

old Jack
As you know Jack; I don't agree with your interpretation.
Floyd.
 

shturt678

New Member
Feb 9, 2013
970
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DaDad said:
The Topic is Daniel 2:45, FIVE world empire scenario, wherein GOD presents the itemizations: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE. If you wish to have a conversation regarding any other aspects, please feel free to start a new Topic.

Otherwise please feel free to resolve what GOD's Intelligent Design, Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE, is intended to convey, -- as opposed to the "classical" interpretation wherein the presenters provide what appears to be a FALSE rendering of: 1,2,3,4a,4b.

DD
Thank you for your response my brother, and refute sir!

I stand successfully refuted, and thank you again,

Old Jack

Thank you also for your response brother Floyd
 

DaDad

Member
Sep 28, 2012
541
3
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To All,

If Scripture (Ref. Dan. 2:45) intentionally provides for a FIFTH distinct empire which is "divided" into the 3-superpowers, then we should find confirmation of the TEN Toes per the following, as suggested to "Floyd":

Current Permanent Membership to the Security Council
1. U.S.
2. U.K.
3. France
4. Russia
5. China

Nominated to Permanent Membership in the Security Council *
6. Germany -- economic power
7. Japan -- economic power
8. Brazil -- regional representative for S. America
9. Nigeria -- regional representative for Africa
10. India -- regional representative for the Near East

[SIZE=8pt] *[/SIZE] “The Road To Reform: Towards A New Clarity,” U.N. Chronicle, UMI, Vol. 30, Issue 4, December 1993, pp. 45-46


As such, one should expect that Prophetic Scripture is simply History written in advance. And this same History confirms that Prophetic Scripture.



With Best Regards,
DD
 

Cooter

New Member
Jun 14, 2011
57
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N E Ohio
Daniel 2:31-45 (NIV2011)
31 “Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance.32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze,33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay.


The most important part of the interpretation comes from putting yourself into the sandals and cloak of the people to whom the book was written. The interpretation of this does not rely on the complex interpretations of today. The interpretation has to be very S - I - M - P - L – E so the uneducated unlearned people of their day could understand the prophesy. This is the best test of our 21st century interpretations – would our 21st century interpretations be intelligible to the people to whom the book was written? If not – we have a problem with our interpretation.

The traditional five Kingdoms apply - easy to comprehend to anyone - especially after 30AD - after the crucifixion.
1. Babylon
2. Medo-Persian
3. Greek
4. Roman
5. Eternal kingdom of Jesus.

34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them.

35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

The coming of the New Covenant - which will multiply and move over the whole world. Jesus became the King of Kings at the cross and is now ruling the world. Today it is popular to believe that His rule will begin at some future time - not so. Our mistake is that we don't ask how God rules and reigns. We think he reigns like the world does – through might, force, coercion, and intimidation. He doesn't. He rules by righteousness. He cannot and will not force people to serve him and to obey and love Him. His method of rule is almost exactly opposite that of the world system. That is why it appears that He is not ruling today.

The New Testament people have always stood up for righteousness even to a point of being put to death for their stand. To date there are over 70,000,000 martyrs since the cross. They died as rulers on the earth. The great dream of the Jews, the Disciples, and a lot of Christians since, was that God would come in power and He would set up this righteous Kingdom and intimidate or force the ungodly to do what is right - it will never happen. God's character is always to allow people their own free will so they can spiritually have the freedom to become what they want to become. On this they are judged. His literal Kingdom does come - after the Second Coming – when the sheep and the goats are separated forever.

36 “This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 Your Majesty, you are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory;

38 in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold. (Babylon)

39 “After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. (Medo-Persian) Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. (Greek - Alexander)

40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. (Roman Empire)

41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay.

42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle.

43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

The clay and iron represented the lack of cohesion or solidarity of the Roman Empire and its conquered lands, which eventually led to its downfall and destruction. If you read much history it is obvious what this means. Conquerers like Rome captured many lands and peoples. They killed off many, plundered their possessions, and sold them into slavery. Is this the behavior of a “benefactor?” Who would want to live under this kind of occupation of a foreign power. No one did – including the Jews. But you had to consider the cost of trying to get out of this situation. A lot of people had settled into their new lot in life and had adapted into their forced lifestyle. But all through the history of Rome they had to fight many wars to maintain control of their conquered lands. The destruction of Jerusalem began with a battle between those who thought they could win a war with the Romans and those who did not. None of them wanted to live under Roman occupation. And so the first two factions in the destruction of Jerusalem in 66AD were the “Peace Party” and the “Rebels.”

As time went by and the Roman Empire was weakening – their enemies knew it and rallied against Rome. In the 4th and 5th centuries the nomadic marauding tribes began taking away the conquests of Rome. Rome kept withdrawing. John alludes to this in the book of Revelation 16. He prophesied that there would be a great Earthquake (in his future) – which was the massive migration of the tribes in Europe (shaking). The city of Rome was prophesied to split into three parts – which it did. Because of the threatening approach of Alaric the Visigoth – the government of the city of Rome was split into three parts in 395AD. One – the senate remained in Rome. Two - The western capital was moved to Ravenna (via Milan) and third - the eastern capital was moved to Constantinople. In 410AD Aleric plundered the city and after this the population of the city plummeted precipitously. This was God's final judgment of the city and corrupt government of Rome.

44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

This is very telling – God set up his kingdom in the time of those kings – of course this would be the last kingdom – Roman. This kingdom was in operation during the time of Rome – which ended in the 5th century as we know from hindsight.

45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. “The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

Of course everyone knows who “The Rock” is in scripture.
 

DaDad

Member
Sep 28, 2012
541
3
18
Hi Cooter,

Cooter said:
The traditional five Kingdoms apply - easy to comprehend to anyone - especially after 30AD - after the crucifixion.
1. Babylon
2. Medo-Persian
3. Greek
4. Roman
5. Eternal kingdom of Jesus.


45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. “
I noticed you had PLENTLY of explanation for the verses NOT IN QUESTION, but not a word for verse 45: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE.

By all appearances, it would seem to be an inconvenience for your ill conceived doctrine, for we know that ALL Scripture must be in harmony. So I can only conclude that you leave Daniel Chapter 2 in disharmony.


Perhaps your "gifting" lies in another venue.

With Best Regards,
DD
 

shturt678

New Member
Feb 9, 2013
970
23
0
83
South Point, Hawaii (Big Island)
Cooter said:


Daniel 2:31-45 (NIV2011)
31 “Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance.32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze,33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay.


The most important part of the interpretation comes from putting yourself into the sandals and cloak of the people to whom the book was written. The interpretation of this does not rely on the complex interpretations of today. The interpretation has to be very S - I - M - P - L – E so the uneducated unlearned people of their day could understand the prophesy. This is the best test of our 21st century interpretations – would our 21st century interpretations be intelligible to the people to whom the book was written? If not – we have a problem with our interpretation.

The traditional five Kingdoms apply - easy to comprehend to anyone - especially after 30AD - after the crucifixion.
1. Babylon
2. Medo-Persian
3. Greek
4. Roman
5. Eternal kingdom of Jesus.

34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them.

35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

The coming of the New Covenant - which will multiply and move over the whole world. Jesus became the King of Kings at the cross and is now ruling the world. Today it is popular to believe that His rule will begin at some future time - not so. Our mistake is that we don't ask how God rules and reigns. We think he reigns like the world does – through might, force, coercion, and intimidation. He doesn't. He rules by righteousness. He cannot and will not force people to serve him and to obey and love Him. His method of rule is almost exactly opposite that of the world system. That is why it appears that He is not ruling today.

The New Testament people have always stood up for righteousness even to a point of being put to death for their stand. To date there are over 70,000,000 martyrs since the cross. They died as rulers on the earth. The great dream of the Jews, the Disciples, and a lot of Christians since, was that God would come in power and He would set up this righteous Kingdom and intimidate or force the ungodly to do what is right - it will never happen. God's character is always to allow people their own free will so they can spiritually have the freedom to become what they want to become. On this they are judged. His literal Kingdom does come - after the Second Coming – when the sheep and the goats are separated forever.

36 “This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 Your Majesty, you are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory;

38 in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold. (Babylon)

39 “After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. (Medo-Persian) Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. (Greek - Alexander)

40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. (Roman Empire)

41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay.

42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle.

43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

The clay and iron represented the lack of cohesion or solidarity of the Roman Empire and its conquered lands, which eventually led to its downfall and destruction. If you read much history it is obvious what this means. Conquerers like Rome captured many lands and peoples. They killed off many, plundered their possessions, and sold them into slavery. Is this the behavior of a “benefactor?” Who would want to live under this kind of occupation of a foreign power. No one did – including the Jews. But you had to consider the cost of trying to get out of this situation. A lot of people had settled into their new lot in life and had adapted into their forced lifestyle. But all through the history of Rome they had to fight many wars to maintain control of their conquered lands. The destruction of Jerusalem began with a battle between those who thought they could win a war with the Romans and those who did not. None of them wanted to live under Roman occupation. And so the first two factions in the destruction of Jerusalem in 66AD were the “Peace Party” and the “Rebels.”

As time went by and the Roman Empire was weakening – their enemies knew it and rallied against Rome. In the 4th and 5th centuries the nomadic marauding tribes began taking away the conquests of Rome. Rome kept withdrawing. John alludes to this in the book of Revelation 16. He prophesied that there would be a great Earthquake (in his future) – which was the massive migration of the tribes in Europe (shaking). The city of Rome was prophesied to split into three parts – which it did. Because of the threatening approach of Alaric the Visigoth – the government of the city of Rome was split into three parts in 395AD. One – the senate remained in Rome. Two - The western capital was moved to Ravenna (via Milan) and third - the eastern capital was moved to Constantinople. In 410AD Aleric plundered the city and after this the population of the city plummeted precipitously. This was God's final judgment of the city and corrupt government of Rome.

44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

This is very telling – God set up his kingdom in the time of those kings – of course this would be the last kingdom – Roman. This kingdom was in operation during the time of Rome – which ended in the 5th century as we know from hindsight.

45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. “The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

Of course everyone knows who “The Rock” is in scripture.
Thank you for caring!

Only a head's up, ie, I was accused of going off topic regarding Dan.2:45 earlier when I stated that the "Rock" = "Kingdom of Christ," and not "Christ" thus will keep this brief. The "Rock" that Moses struck at Rephidim at Horeb, and at the Water at Strife at Kadesh was "Christ."

Old Jack

btw we're nearing the end of the "Milennial," ie, soon the personal loosing of Satan followed by the "1" Parousia.
 

DaDad

Member
Sep 28, 2012
541
3
18
shturt678 said:
The "Rock" that Moses struck at Rephidim at Horeb
Perhaps you should heed the admonishment that this Topic pertains to the Daniel 2:45 sequence, Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE, and the suggestion that if you want to discuss other subjects, that you host a new Topic, rather than hijacking someone else's Topic.




To All,

It should not be a surprise that some would seek to divert your attention from Scriptural concepts, as already identified in Post #50, excerpted as follows:

DaDad said:
Has anyone noticed that the "mystery" of GOD's Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE remains unsolved? Certainly there have been denials as to the INTELLIGENT DESIGN of this sequence; there have been attempts to accure this sequence to anyone but GOD (presumably so that they can deny disobedience of Scripture); and there were tangents which attempted to divert attention from the question. But in all these "contributions" to this Topic, NONE were able explain why GOD specified the 4,3,5,2,1 sequence.
And where some sow tares and salt, others sow Scripture to an eternal reward.


With Best Regards,
DD
 

DaDad

Member
Sep 28, 2012
541
3
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... out of all those in this Forum who profess expertise, and still no solution to GOD's Intelligent Design: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE.
 

Floyd

Active Member
Feb 28, 2014
937
30
28
[SIZE=20pt]Ten Toes of Daniel 2-42[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Who are these two beasts? They clearly are important, as they are referred to in the Old Testament (OT), and also in the New Testament (NT), by inference. They undoubtedly are in timing related to the events of the end of the Gentile period, and the saving of Israel by Almighty God in Christ Jesus Messiah![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Revelation 13:1 of the Bible describes them as “rising up out of the sea”. The word “sea” in Scripture usually denotes many peoples (Isa.57:20), unless specific to usually the Mediterranean, which is often referred to as “the Great Sea”.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Most if not all the events of Scripture have as the geographical focus what has become known in the past as Palestine, which is at the eastern end of the “Great Sea”. As the history of the area progressed over time, and especially during the Roman Empire period, the Countries around the Mediterranean became important to Prophecy, because of the Roman occupation, and the prophecy in Daniel 2:33, which refers to the “latter days”v28, and the events of that time! The particularly important point is verse 42, which refers to “the toes of the feet”, which in later comment is shown to be 10 individual Nations, which had their original Nationhood formed or enhanced during the times of power of the Roman Empire.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]To avoid repeating previous writing , the following are extracts from [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]www.revelationsmessage.co.ukhttp://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and are from Chapter 13. This first extract is the “first beast”, and as will be seen refers to political power; whereas the “second Beast” refers to religious power and its effect in the world.[/SIZE]

Full text:
[SIZE=20pt]Ten Toes of Daniel 2-42[/SIZE]

Floyd.
 

DaDad

Member
Sep 28, 2012
541
3
18
Hi Floyd,

This Topic is intended to address the Daniel 2:45 Intelligent Design sequence: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE. Multiple people wish it WEREN'T part of Scripture, because their doctrines DO NOT CONFORM TO THIS PASSAGE. And instead of honestly addressing Scripture versus their doctrines, they change the subject, which is nothing short of Intellectual Dishonesty. And of such represent us in Washington.

So I most strongly recommend that if you disagree with the 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE premise, that you simply provide an alternate explanation. And lacking that, I suggest that you go before GOD and repent of your disobedience to HIS Word, and then resolve the TRUTH of this matter.


And a final two points:

1. If you wish to have a discussion regarding the ten toes, I'd FIRST recommend that you start at the Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold foundation, before nailing the "gingerbread" on the eaves.

2. If you still wish to have a discussion the ten toes, I'd SECONDLY recommend that you start a NEW Topic. This Topic pertains to the Daniel 2:45 sequence: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE.


With Best Regards,
DD