Poll... How many believe in the rapture?

[Joshua David]

Where does that leave those who are raptured out prior to the tribulation? It does NOT put them anywhere in that Rev.20:4 group. ONLY those which fit those of Rev.20:4 will represent Christ's true Body and Church, and will reign with Him.

Where does that leave his disciples? Be careful of your answer, because you don't want to make the mistake of making Jesus out to be a liar. He specifically told his disciples that they would rule. The disciples all died before going through the tribulation. The disciples are not part of the group in Rev 20:4.


Looking forward to your answer....


Joshua David

 

[veteran]

Where does that leave his disciples? Be careful of your answer, because you don't want to make the mistake of making Jesus out to be a liar. He specifically told his disciples that they would rule. The disciples all died before going through the tribulation. The disciples are not part of the group in Rev 20:4.


Looking forward to your answer....


Joshua David

Where does that leave those who are raptured out prior to the tribulation? It does NOT put them anywhere in that Rev.20:4 group. ONLY those which fit those of Rev.20:4 will represent Christ's true Body and Church, and will reign with Him.

You still haven't solved that question yet.

 

[Joshua David]

Where does that leave those who are raptured out prior to the tribulation? It does NOT put them anywhere in that Rev.20:4 group. ONLY those which fit those of Rev.20:4 will represent Christ's true Body and Church, and will reign with Him.

You still haven't solved that question yet.

There is nothing to solve. You are assuming that only those in the Rev 20:4 group represent Christ's true body and Church. Although I do not say this very often, Veteran that assumption is flat out wrong. And it is easy enough to prove if you look at the disciples, which was exactly the reason that I asked you that question.


So I answered your question, now answer mine.


Joshua David

 

[veteran]

There is nothing to solve. You are assuming that only those in the Rev 20:4 group represent Christ's true body and Church. Although I do not say this very often, Veteran that assumption is flat out wrong. And it is easy enough to prove if you look at the disciples, which was exactly the reason that I asked you that question. So I answered your question, now answer mine. Joshua David

Even your own testimony betrays your belief on the pre-trib rapture...

What are the properties that these people possess.

1) They were beheaded
2) They did not worship the beast
3) The did not worship his image
4) The did not receive his mark
5) They reigned with Christ for a 1,000 years.

That was your outline on who that Rev.20:4 is speaking about.

So where do those who are raptured out prior to the tribulation fit among those?


A pre-trib rapture before the tribulation does NOT fit any of those of Rev.20:4, because...

1. the pre-trib doctrine relies on saints not being beheaded for the Witness of Jesus, nor for the witness of The Word of God, and...

2. per pre-trib doctrine, those raptured prior to the tribulation do not experience temptation to receiving the mark nor worship of the image of the beast that will occur ONLY DURING the tribulation time, and...

3. those of Rev.20:4 that refuse the mark and worship of the image of the beast DO go through the tribulation, but overcome it through Christ.

 

[veteran]

Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(KJV)

That phrase in bold is only about those who were exposed to taking that mark and worshipping the beast and his image, etc.

But the pre-trib doctrines teach a rapture to Christ PRIOR to ANY exposing of that upon themselves. They even used the Rev.3:10 verse to try and support that pre-trib rapture is HOW they are kept from that "hour of temptation".

For the pre-trib rapturists, that "hour of temptation" and mark of the beast and image of the beast time is supposed to be irrelevant.

So did our Lord Jesus leave something out there in that Rev.20:4 verse? It doesn't include anything about those who are raptured prior to the tribulation, except saints that have been killed (or died in Christ beforehand). And how can that apply to the pre-trib rapture which totally depends on saints being still alive on earth when it happens?

 

[veteran]

Here's another Scripture problem for those on the pre-trib rapture doctrines...

Rev 15:1-3
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
(KJV)

John sees these saints in Heaven, singing the Song of Moses AND THE SONG OF THE LAMB, as they had gotten (past tense) victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, and they stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Who are those? Same ones as these...

Rev 14:1-3
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
(KJV)

That's when Christ Jesus will stand upon Mount Zion in Jerusalem, DURING His thousand years reign with His elect.

The pre-trib doctrines like to teach that means Christ's Church raptured out PRIOR to the tribulation. There's a problem though, because of this...

Rev.15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Once again, this Rev.15:2 Scripture shows ONLY those in the last generation that are exposed to that beast, and his image, and his mark, and overcome it through Christ, are made up of this group which stands upon Mount Zion with Him after His return. To be exposed to those things, one MUST go through the great tribulation our Lord Jesus and His Apostles forewarned us about.

Granted that the saints who are asleep are already with Christ, and will reign with Him. But these specific verse like Rev.15:2 and 20:4 include a specific Message for those living in the last generation on earth.

 

[Joshua David]

Even your own testimony betrays your belief on the pre-trib rapture...



That was your outline on who that Rev.20:4 is speaking about.

So where do those who are raptured out prior to the tribulation fit among those?


A pre-trib rapture before the tribulation does NOT fit any of those of Rev.20:4, because...

1. the pre-trib doctrine relies on saints not being beheaded for the Witness of Jesus, nor for the witness of The Word of God, and...

2. per pre-trib doctrine, those raptured prior to the tribulation do not experience temptation to receiving the mark nor worship of the image of the beast that will occur ONLY DURING the tribulation time, and...

3. those of Rev.20:4 that refuse the mark and worship of the image of the beast DO go through the tribulation, but overcome it through Christ.

Wow imagine that.. Someone who believes the pretrib doctrine, has a testimony that betrays their belief in a pretrib doctrine. I mean... Wow.. that is mind blowing.


So where do those that are raptured out fit among those? They don't. Those that are raptured out are not part of the tribulation saints. Only those people who come to faith in Jesus Christ during the tribulation will experience the events of the tribulation.


If I was saying that there would be no Tribulation Saints saved during the tribulation then I could see where you would have a problem, but I am not. There will be people saved during the tribulation, these are the tribulation saints, these are the ones that are in focus in Rev 20:4.


The problem that you are having is your assumption that Rev 20:4 represents only those who are in his bride, and will rule. The scriptures do not say this. Do the scriptures say that the people in Rev 20 will rule with Christ? YES!!! Do they mention that the people that is seen in Rev 20 are the ONLY people who will rule with Christ? No they do not. That is your assumption, but the scriptures do not say that. In fact it says the opposite. Christ told this disciples that they would rule with him. All of the disciples died before the tribulation started, and since the tribulation hasn't started yet, every Christian who has ever died, including the Disciples have not gone through the Tribulation. Christ promise his church that they would rule as well. SO, if those Christians who have died between the Day of Pentecost and now are fit to rule, then there would be absolutely no conflict between Rev 20:4 and a pretribulation rapture.


Now since I have answered you question twice, and you have ignored my question twice are you ready to answer my question now?


Joshua David

 

[veteran]

Wow imagine that.. Someone who believes the pretrib doctrine, has a testimony that betrays their belief in a pretrib doctrine. I mean... Wow.. that is mind blowing.

So where do those that are raptured out fit among those? They don't. Those that are raptured out are not part of the tribulation saints. Only those people who come to faith in Jesus Christ during the tribulation will experience the events of the tribulation.

Rev 20:4-5
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(KJV)

Then what you would be agreeing to is that only the 144,000 of Rev.7 that are "tribulation saints" (as you've so called them) are those 144,000 that are with Christ upon Mount Sion per Rev.14. And per Rev.14:4 they are called the "firstfruits" unto God and to The Lamb, and "the first resurrection".


Rev 2:25-27
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father.
(KJV)

Rev 2:11
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
(KJV)

Rev 3:21
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne.
(KJV)

 

[veteran]

The problem that you are having is your assumption that Rev 20:4 represents only those who are in his bride, and will rule. The scriptures do not say this. Do the scriptures say that the people in Rev 20 will rule with Christ? YES!!! Do they mention that the people that is seen in Rev 20 are the ONLY people who will rule with Christ? No they do not. That is your assumption, but the scriptures do not say that. In fact it says the opposite. Christ told this disciples that they would rule with him. All of the disciples died before the tribulation started, and since the tribulation hasn't started yet, every Christian who has ever died, including the Disciples have not gone through the Tribulation. Christ promise his church that they would rule as well. SO, if those Christians who have died between the Day of Pentecost and now are fit to rule, then there would be absolutely no conflict between Rev 20:4 and a pretribulation rapture.

Joshua David

You keep forgetting that Rev.20:4 are the ONLY ones mentioned involving the "first resurrection" that reigns with Christ during the thousand years.

Those include all saints that overcome through Christ. That's who the first two phrases of Rev.20:4 is about, including the asleep saints that overcame that already died in the past. But the last phrase of Rev.20:4 is ONLY for all saints in the end of days when Christ returns, and they must go through the tribulation. It does not separate between two groups of saints, like your idea of raptured saints and tribulation saints.

There are many Messages in the New Testament Books that preach that we must overcome, Christ gave many of them to the seven Churches in Rev.2 & 3.


Rev 16:12-17
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus put that warning of Rev.16:15 there in between the 6th and 7th Vials to show that His saints are still on earth at that point, no rapture of His Church yet. It is the same Message that Apostle Paul gave in 1 Thess.5 to be on watch and remain sober. The Armageddon event is about the events on the day of The Lord, which Paul and Peter both said occurs when Christ comes "as a thief". The pre-trib doctrinists use that "as a thief" marker all the time for their pre-trib rapture idea that supposedly occurs prior to the tribulation.

 

[veteran]

All of these Scriptures are timing Messages for when Christ returns to gather His Church...

1Thes 5:1-7
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
(KJV)

2 Pet 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(KJV)

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(KJV)

Rev 16:15
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
(KJV)

Not only is it Christ's coming that is "as a thief", but it's also "the day of The Lord" that occurs at the same time.


Isa 2:12-22
12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,
14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,
15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,
16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.
17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
18 And the idols He shall utterly abolish.
19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
(KJV)

How is it that God's Word about that day of The Lord includes God's judgments upon the wicked, and the end of their wickedness, especially since the pre-trib rapture teaches Christ's Church being removed when Christ comes "as a thief" so wickedness can continue on the earth, i.e., the tribulation?

Joel 1:15
15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
(KJV)

There's God's Testimony again of the day of The LORD coming with a destruction on the earth from God.


Joel 3:14-16
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of His people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
(KJV)

The earth is going to shake when The LORD comes to do that on that day of The LORD, which is when Paul and Peter said Christ comes "as a thief".


2 Cor 1:14
14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(KJV)

Phil 1:10
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
(KJV)

Phil 2:16
16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
(KJV)

II Th 2:1-2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(KJV)

That "day of Christ" is the same "day of The LORD" in those above Scriptures. The 2 Thess.2:2 example is uniquely pointing to that day, because the Greek word for "Christ" in that verse is actually 'kurios' which means 'lord'.

 

[Joshua David]

Rev 20:4-5
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(KJV)

Then what you would be agreeing to is that only the 144,000 of Rev.7 that are "tribulation saints" (as you've so called them) are those 144,000 that are with Christ upon Mount Sion per Rev.14. And per Rev.14:4 they are called the "firstfruits" unto God and to The Lamb, and "the first resurrection".


Rev 2:25-27
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father.
(KJV)

Rev 2:11
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
(KJV)

Rev 3:21
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne.
(KJV)

No what I would be agree to is that the 144,000 are a part of the Tribulation Saints, which I believe will number into the millions, in fact at least greater than the 200 million army. Are the 144,000 considered the 'First fruits' Yes just like Christ is considered the first fruit.

Granted that the saints who are asleep are already with Christ, and will reign with Him. But these specific verse like Rev.15:2 and 20:4include a specific Message for those living in the last generation on earth.

No it includes a specific message to those people who go through the tribulation. If the saints are worthy to rule, then the pre-tribulation raptured Church is worthy to rule as well.

What God is saying here is that those that go through the tribulation, that come to a saving relationship with Jesus and overcome the Antichrist will rule. That's all.
So tell me, let's say for the sake of argument, that the tribulation starts in two days. There are two brothers, they started going to church on the same day, they gave their life to God, and accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior on the same day, served in the church together. Helped out in each other's ministry, and for all intents and purposes, both lived their life for God about equally.

What is the difference between the two brothers? none yet..

Now one of these brothers died today. The other brother is still alive two days from now, and is here at the start of the tribulation. Now what is the difference? Well according to you, one brother, the one who died, is fit to rule with Christ...

Granted that the saints who are asleep are already with Christ, and will reign with Him. But these specific verse like Rev.15:2 and 20:4include a specific Message for those living in the last generation on earth.

Right, the one brother is sleep and is already with Christ, and will reign with Him. But now, the other brother, oh he is not fit to rule anything UNTIL he goes through the tribulation and gets his head chopped off.

Is this really what you are claiming that the Word of God is saying?

Veteran, if the Christians who have died and are with Christ right now are fit to rule in his Kingdom, then those of us who are alive right before the tribulation starts are fit to rule with Christ as well. The church does not need to be purified, or purged, or refined. Christ did everything that was required for us to be purified and holy and fit to rule on the Cross.

The entire Tribulation serves three purposes. 1) To refine and purify unbelieving Israel. 2) To wake up those 'fence-sitters' of their need to make the choice. You know the ones that I am talking about, those people who have been told about Jesus, and while not rejecting the gospel message, they haven't accepted that message either. and 3) To punish and unbelieving world for their rejection of Jesus Christ.

The Church is not a part of unbelieving Israel, I think we both can agree on that. The Church is not part of the 'fence-sitter' crowd, though there may be quite a few 'fence sitters' that currently go to 'church'. But THE Church are those who have already made their decision, they are the ones who have gotten off the fence and have stood with God. And the Church definitely has not rejected Jesus Christ.

The Tribulation does not have anything to do with the Bride of Christ. Nothing. The members of the church who is alive at the beginning of the tribulation do not need to be purified, any more than the people in the church who have already died need to be purified.

This is the exact reason that Jesus promised us..

Rev 3:10 [font="Verdana][size="2"][sup]10[/sup] Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. [/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="3"]Revelations tells us quite plainly that the Tribulation Saints are not kept from the hour of trial that comes upon the whole earth, in fact, the bible tells us that the Beast is given power over the saints and will overcome them.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="3"]Rev 13:6-7 [/size][/font][font="Verdana][size="2"][sup]6[/sup] Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. [sup]7[/sup] It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]To make war with the saints and to overcome them... overcome them... Does this sound like keeping us from the trial that is to come? And another thing.. It is biblically impossible for the Saints in Rev 13:7 to be the church. Don't you remember what Jesus said about his church?[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="3"]Matt 16:18 [/size][sup]18[/sup] [/font][font="Verdana][size="2"]And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.[/size][/font]


The church may be hard pressed, but we will never be crushed, we may be perplexed, but we will never be in despair, we may be persecuted, but we will never be forsaken, we may be struck down, but we will never be destroyed, The church may be besieged by Satan himself, but we will never be overcome, and neither shall Satan himself prevail against us.

2 Cor 4:8-9 [font="Verdana][size="2"][sup]8[/sup] We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;[sup]9[/sup] persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed—[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Joshua David[/size][/font]


Joshua David

 

[veteran]

No what I would be agree to is that the 144,000 are a part of the Tribulation Saints, which I believe will number into the millions, in fact at least greater than the 200 million army. Are the 144,000 considered the 'First fruits' Yes just like Christ is considered the first fruit.

That's a good start, but the difference I see is that only those of the "first resurrection" are being talked about in the Rev.20:4 verse. I don't see all my Christian brethren being part of that, because of the deception many of them will fall to during the tribulation by false messiah, which will make them of the five foolish virgins, not the five wise ones. It's for this reason that I keep preaching the warning about the coming false messiah and his tribulation that we all must go through. For believers in the last days, that's how the foolish virgins are going to be separated from the wise virgins (Matt.25).

No it includes a specific message to those people who go through the tribulation. If the saints are worthy to rule, then the pre-tribulation raptured Church is worthy to rule as well.

Problem with that is, there is no Scripture supporting a rapture prior to the great tribulation Jesus forewarned of. That's why it's a doctrine of man. The Scriptures support only a one-time return and gathering to Christ Jesus, and its timing is given with the 'day of The Lord' events, which only occur to end the tribulation by the antichrist. This is why Apostle Paul covered that point again in 2 Thess.2.

 

[Comm.Arnold]

I do belive on the rapture but I have heard many different scholars debate the meaning of the end time trials. For what we know we could be going through them right now it feels like I get tempted and oppressed and persecuted when I go anywhere sometimes. It usually feels the worst when I realize I haven't prayed in a while or read my bible or kind of been ignoring God. The idea of the beast power with the mark on the forehead and hand has been described as the actions "hand" and thoughts or the way someone thinks which the mark on the forehead represents.

 

[veteran]

If one doesn't already know who the real antichrist false messiah is going to be, then it's still not too late to find out from God in His Word. But the time is nearing when that opportunity to know and understand will be over.