Poll... How many believe in the rapture?

[rockytopva]

[sup]12[/sup]Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? [sup]13[/sup]But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

[sup]14[/sup]And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

[sup]15[/sup]Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

[sup]16[/sup]For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

[sup]17[/sup]And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

[sup]18[/sup]Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

[sup]19[/sup]If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

[sup]20[/sup]But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

[sup]21[/sup]For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

[sup]22[/sup]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

[sup]23[/sup]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

[sup]24[/sup]Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

[sup]25[/sup]For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

[sup]26[/sup]The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

[sup]27[/sup]For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

[sup]28[/sup]And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

[sup]29[/sup]Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

[sup]30[/sup]And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

[sup]31[/sup]I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

[sup]32[/sup]If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

[sup]33[/sup]Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

[sup]34[/sup]Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

[sup]35[/sup]But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

[sup]36[/sup]Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

[sup]37[/sup]And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

[sup]38[/sup]But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

[sup]39[/sup]All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

[sup]40[/sup]There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

[sup]41[/sup]There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

[sup]42[/sup]So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

[sup]43[/sup]It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

[sup]44[/sup]It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

[sup]45[/sup]And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

[sup]46[/sup]Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

[sup]47[/sup]The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

[sup]48[/sup]As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

[sup]49[/sup]And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

[sup]50[/sup]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

[sup]51[/sup]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

[sup]52[/sup]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[sup]53[/sup]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

[sup]54[/sup]So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

[sup]55[/sup]O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Corinthians 15: 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25,26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 27, 28, 29, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45,46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55

 

[Disciple]

I am not sure about this big 'rapture' everyone talks about, but i do beleive Christ will return again to save his saints

 

[rockytopva]

I am not sure about this big 'rapture' everyone talks about, but i do beleive Christ will return again to save his saints

Disciple... It ought to be understood that no bible scholar can study Revelation and come to the same conclusions! But Christ will indeed come again for us very soon!

Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. - Revelation 22:7

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. - Revelation 22:12

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.- Revelation 22:20

 

[aspen]

I sure wish someone would start a new thread - something new and interesting - hey! how about a new thread on the Rapture........

 

[veteran]

rockytopva,

You apparently agree that Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 was speaking of the same events as 1 Thessalonians 4 about our gathering to Christ Jesus at His coming (what some call the 'rapture'). Recognizing both Scriptures as being about the same event is a step in the right direction. The next logical step would be to find out in what timing that "trump of God" and "last trump" Paul mentioned occurs, per Revelation 11.

 

[tomwebster]

Remember to that the subject of the 1 Thessalonians 4 verses is "where are the dead."

 

[sniper762]

for those who b elieve in a rapture, its your perogitive.

personally, i hope to be hear during my christ's reign

 

[Guitarded]

I haven't decided because I don't spend too much time thinking about it. Either way, I'll be meeting Jesus.

 

[Duckybill]

for those who b elieve in a rapture, its your perogitive.

personally, i hope to be hear during my christ's reign

What makes you think both are not possible?

 

[Foreigner]

for those who b elieve in a rapture, its your perogitive.

personally, i hope to be hear during my christ's reign

-- Whoever your Christ is, THE Christ's reign will include those that believe in the Rapture.

 

[KingdomCome]

The following will hopefully help in our understanding of the Resurrection and the Ascension...

1Cor:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Gen 5:
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Adam is "Male and female...".

Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Gen 2:
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man (My note: man = Adam), made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Re 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Re 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Eph 5:
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

The water is washed by the word — and the waters "...are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Rev 17:
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Eve, is the spirit and life of Adam that is fallen (Adam is male and female), and the fallen woman who was taken from the "rib" (structure) of mankind (Adam) is "...the great whore...", and, moreover, "...the mother of all living."

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The Church, those who are "the waters" where the whore did sit, are those saved by Christ Jesus, and are the new Jerusalem — the bride of Christ.

I believe what the Word of God says concerning the Resurrection and the Ascension and the return of Christ Jesus with all who believe and are raised with Christ.

Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Blessings

 

[rockytopva]

8 votes to 4... With two undecided! The rapture is on! Praise you Lord Jesus!

 

[tomwebster]

8 votes to 4... With two undecided! The rapture is on! Praise you Lord Jesus!

God's does not care about your poll or your vote. If it were 1000 to one your rapture is still false.

 

[rockytopva]

 

[veteran]

-- Whoever your Christ is, THE Christ's reign will include those that believe in the Rapture.

But one will be in the "outer darkness" and the other ones won't. Each believer must decide which group they want to be included with:

Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(KJV)

That applies only to those in Christ that will reign with Him during His future thousand years reign.

For the final generation on earth that will see Christ's return, that verse singles out only those who go through the great tribulation as being of those that reign with Him. It's simple to grasp that because of that phrase, "and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands."

Common sense shows that for those to be able to refuse that mark and false worship, they would have to go through the great tribulation. It is an indirect time marker for Christ's return and the gathering of His faithful saints still alive on earth. It reveals that time of gathering His alive saints on earth cannot be any other time but 'after' the tribulation. That means what for the pre-trib doctrines?

 

[Joshua David]

But one will be in the "outer darkness" and the other ones won't. Each believer must decide which group they want to be included with:

Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(KJV)

That applies only to those in Christ that will reign with Him during His future thousand years reign.

For the final generation on earth that will see Christ's return, that verse singles out only those who go through the great tribulation as being of those that reign with Him. It's simple to grasp that because of that phrase, "and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands."

Common sense shows that for those to be able to refuse that mark and false worship, they would have to go through the great tribulation. It is an indirect time marker for Christ's return and the gathering of His faithful saints still alive on earth. It reveals that time of gathering His alive saints on earth cannot be any other time but 'after' the tribulation. That means what for the pre-trib doctrines?

Hmm... Let's take a real close look at that.. If this verse represents all the saints in the church age, like you claim it does, let's see it that assumption stands up to critical review.

What are the properties that these people possess.

1) They were beheaded
2) They did not worship the beast
3) The did not worship his image
4) The did not receive his mark
5) They reigned with Christ for a 1,000 years.

Now I ask you... If this verse applies to all the church, which again is what you implied, then you are saying that by the time the rapture gets here, there will not be any Christians left alive, because how many people do you know can still be alive after having their heads removed from their bodies? This type of thing does tend to shorten your expected life span considerably.

But Paul clearly states that at the rapture, there still will be people in the church who are still alive. That right there should tell you that this group must be different than the church.

I would say that means that the pretrib rapture is still on pretty good footing. Do I believe that there will be tribulation Saints? Yes. Do I believe that they will be beheaded? Yes, contrary to what most Post-Tribs think, as far as God will take care of his own, just like he took care of Noah, and Lot. Even most post trib folks don't identify with this group. Oh they will say, well I won't take the Mark, and I won't worship his image, but God will take care of me, because I am one of his children.

Joshua David

 

[veteran]

Let's go a bit further, applying some of the Pre-trib view to that Rev.20:4 Scripture..

A common pre-trib view is that the 144,000 of Rev.7 represents deceived Jews that go through the tribulation, and ONLY come to believe on Christ Jesus DURING the tribulation time, while Christ's Church is raptured out before the tribulation starts.

The Rev.20:4 Scripture is specific that only those that which were beheaded for the Witness of Jesus Christ, and for The Word of God, and those who did not receive the mark nor worship the image of the beast or his name, will reign with Christ.

The pre-trib rapture doctrines includes NONE of those. Why?

Because that beheading for Christ and His Word can only apply to saints that are killed, either in times past like the prophets, or for those that go through the great tribulation at the end of this world. And the others that refuse the mark and worship of the image of the beast also means those have to experience the great tribulation, because that is the ONLY time in this earth's history when that 'mark' of Rev.13 will be setup on earth.

It's like Acts 14:22 says, "...that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."

Our Lord Jesus warned us, as did His Apostles, about the coming great tribulation so that we would be made strong in The Faith so as to go through it, making a stand for Him.

 

[veteran]

Hmm... Let's take a real close look at that.. If this verse represents all the saints in the church age, like you claim it does, let's see it that assumption stands up to critical review.

What are the properties that these people possess.

1) They were beheaded
2) They did not worship the beast
3) The did not worship his image
4) The did not receive his mark
5) They reigned with Christ for a 1,000 years. Now I ask you... If this verse applies to all the church, which again is what you implied, then you are saying that by the time the rapture gets here, there will not be any Christians left alive, because how many people do you know can still be alive after having their heads removed from their bodies? This type of thing does tend to shorten your expected life span considerably.

The Rev.20:4 Scripture is clear, only those who specifically fit those attributes of that verse will reign with Christ during His thousand years reign.


Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(KJV)

souls that were behead FOR:
1. the Witness of Jesus,
And,
2. the Word of God,

AND:
3. those which had NOT worshippped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark in their foreheads, or in their hands.

Group 1 can only mean those who gave a Testimony for Jesus and were killed for it, either in times past or during the tribulation.

Group 2 can only mean those who died for the Word of God, either in times past or during the tribulation.

Group 3 ONLY those who refused the mark and did not worship the image of the beast, an endtime tribulation marker only.


Where does that leave those who are raptured out prior to the tribulation? It does NOT put them anywhere in that Rev.20:4 group. ONLY those which fit those of Rev.20:4 will represent Christ's true Body and Church, and will reign with Him.

 

[Joshua David]

Let's go a bit further, applying some of the Pre-trib view to that Rev.20:4 Scripture..

A common pre-trib view is that the 144,000 of Rev.7 represents deceived Jews that go through the tribulation, and ONLY come to believe on Christ Jesus DURING the tribulation time, while Christ's Church is raptured out before the tribulation starts.

The Rev.20:4 Scripture is specific that only those that which were beheaded for the Witness of Jesus Christ, and for The Word of God, and those who did not receive the mark nor worship the image of the beast or his name, will reign with Christ.

The pre-trib rapture doctrines includes NONE of those. Why?

Because that beheading for Christ and His Word can only apply to saints that are killed, either in times past like the prophets, or for those that go through the great tribulation at the end of this world. And the others that refuse the mark and worship of the image of the beast also means those have to experience the great tribulation, because that is the ONLY time in this earth's history when that 'mark' of Rev.13 will be setup on earth.

It's like Acts 14:22 says, "...that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."

Our Lord Jesus warned us, as did His Apostles, about the coming great tribulation so that we would be made strong in The Faith so as to go through it, making a stand for Him.

So let me get this right.. Are you claiming that ONLY those Christians that specifically went through the tribulation, will reign with Christ? What about those Christians who had the great misfortune of dieing before the tribulation started? I guess Jesus doesn't have any use in them whatsoever. Wait a minute, didn't God promise his own disciples that they would reign with him and rule over Israel? Does this mean that you believe that God is going to resurrect the disciples so that they can experience the privilege of going through the tribulation and having their heads chopped off, so that they will be qualify to reign with Him?


I guess since my grandmother, who had the stupid audacity to die before the tribulation started, is out of luck too. I mean How Dare She deny God the right to put her through the tribulation in order to make her fit to rule. I guess she will join with any of the disciples that wasn't resurrected in order to go through the tribulation. But since you plan on going through the tribulation and in doing so, qualify to rule, maybe she will be regulated as a second class citizen under your rule.. All I ask is that you be nice to her, because she was a gentle spirit with a great love in her heart.


Too bad God won't have those kind of people ruling too.


Joshua David

 

[veteran]

So let me get this right.. Are you claiming that ONLY those Christians that specifically went through the tribulation, will reign with Christ? What about those Christians who had the great misfortune of dieing before the tribulation started? I guess Jesus doesn't have any use in them whatsoever. Wait a minute, didn't God promise his own disciples that they would reign with him and rule over Israel? Does this mean that you believe that God is going to resurrect the disciples so that they can experience the privilege of going through the tribulation and having their heads chopped off, so that they will be qualify to reign with Him?


I guess since my grandmother, who had the stupid audacity to die before the tribulation started, is out of luck too. I mean How Dare She deny God the right to put her through the tribulation in order to make her fit to rule. I guess she will join with any of the disciples that wasn't resurrected in order to go through the tribulation. But since you plan on going through the tribulation and in doing so, qualify to rule, maybe she will be regulated as a second class citizen under your rule.. All I ask is that you be nice to her, because she was a gentle spirit with a great love in her heart.


Too bad God won't have those kind of people ruling too.


Joshua David

Where does that leave those who are raptured out prior to the tribulation? It does NOT put them anywhere in that Rev.20:4 group. ONLY those which fit those of Rev.20:4 will represent Christ's true Body and Church, and will reign with Him.