Poll on OSAS

[StanJ]

Wormwood,

Respectfully the majority of your post is speaking against limited atonement. Now I myself was never arguing that position. I do believe Piper holds to that doctrine, yet I do not see that doctrine forming his argument. The most convincing portion of his argument is the intrepretation of Romans 8:7-9
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit enables us to move from the mind set on the flesh to being in the Spirit. Otherwise we are hostile to God without the Spirit.

Another portion you did not respond to was where I made the argument that God designs the most inward parts of a person, which I interpret to mean the mind, heart, and soul of a man.

You see I do agree with God's grace being extended to all. God does nothing to hold men back from believing in the atonement of Jesus Christ and the gospel of grace. It is the pride of man and their hostility towards God that holds them back. If left to our own, all would do that. If a heart is a stone to God, who but God Himself can turn stone to flesh?

In the love of Christ,
Justaname

I'm not really sure why you would quote a 5 point Calvinist when you claim only to be a 3 pointer?
IMO, if a doctrine is wrong, it is ALL wrong.

 

[justaname]

I'm not really sure why you would quote a 5 point Calvinist when you claim only to be a 3 pointer?
IMO, if a doctrine is wrong, it is ALL wrong.

Yes and this says a lot...

 

[Wormwood]

Justaname,

Thanks for your reply. I guess I am a bit confused about your position. If I recall correctly, you claimed you held to a monergistic view of salvation. If that is the case, then salvation has nothing to do with our response, but only God's will. Moreover, if God predetermined all our acts, including our choices to accept or reject the Gospel based on his creating of our "inward" parts, then I don't know how this would not lead you toward a view of limited atonement. Wouldn't God create everyone's inward parts and predispositions in such a way so that all would accept the Gospel, if, in fact, that was His will? If God created people so they would choose or not choose to embrace the Gospel, then isn't it safe to say that Jesus didn't die for all, but only those God predestined by His creating them in a certain fashion? I mean, I don't know how one could say Jesus died for all if God predetermined some would not accept Jesus due to the way He created them.

As for the text on Psalms, a couple of thoughts. First, I think we need to be cautious in how we interpret poetry. For instance, when God says, "I own the cattle on a thousand hills" it doesn't mean God doesn't own the cattle on hill # 1001. Moreover, when David cries out in his grief that he was sinful from birth, I don't think this is a very good text to form a doctrine such as original sin. It is poetry and a man loathing his sin and should be understood in that light. Of course, God did create David's inward parts and knows David intimately (as He does all of us). However, this is not to say that by this creation that God therefore is determining David's future acts. When it comes to foreknowledge, I am of the opinion that God created man with true freedom and that God's foreknowledge does not operate in a way that causes Him to foreknow potential actions he would take. So, I don't think God foreknows hypothetical actions. In other words, I don't think God saw an infinite list of hypothetical ways to create a man and all the reprocussions of those initial creations prior to the actual act of creation. So, it's not that God chose the "best of all possible worlds." Rather, He determined to create the world an man in a certain way and then after that act, he was able to foreknow all of our future decisions. Thus, God did not predetermine our acts by creating us a certain way. Rather, he created us with freedom and after creating Adam with the capacity to choose, He foresaw all the future acts of Adam and humanity as a whole. based on that creation.

Now, I do think God planned in advance to glorify Himself in Christ before the foundation of the world. However, to suggest that the way he created the world determined its outcome and every person's choice is taking the concept of foreknowledge beyond what it the word actually means. Foreknowledge is knowing beforehand that which is going to happen. It is not foreknowing potential possibilities of God's own acts.

I can elaborate on this perhaps in a future message. I have a baby crying I better attend to! Have a blessed Friday!

 

[StanJ]

Yes and this says a lot...

Apparently, ONLY to you?