Poll: Truth7t7 most famous replies

[Truth7t7]

No wonder you have never seen and cannot see that every time you read "rule the nations with a rod of iron" in the Revelation, it's a translation of the Greek word poimaino, which means to tend as a shepherd. Not "rule".

Sure doesn't look like Jesus Is tending sheep as a shepherd below, smiles!

Psalm 2:9KJV
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

 

[Zao is life]

Sure doesn't look like Jesus Is tending sheep as a shepherd below, smiles!

Psalm 2:9KJV
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Check the Greek word wrongly translated into English as "rule" in Revelation 2:27. It's poimaino - shepherd them.

Not that you'll bother going to the Bible - the actual biblical wording, because you have already chosen to believe what you want to.

How sad that you do not believe what is written, but only the incorrect English word chosen by fallible men when translating it. These men are your gods, and this is why you regard the KJV English as the divinely inspired Word of God, and no other translation.

 

[Sheila3]

The1000 year reign with Christ is not here on this Earth, scripture says we will be with him. Wherever he is that's where we'll be for that 1000 yrs.

The devil is loosed back upon Earth to deceive Gog and Magog after the thousand year reign with Christ.

In the KJV it is not said that the millennium will take place here on Earth.

And almost immediately following the loosing of the devil on Gog and Magog the remaining people, which are many, and the devil will be burnt up. And according to scripture so will the earth and this heaven.

We have a tendency to acquaint all things written with this old Earth when many may actually be speaking of the new Earth and the new heaven and the New Jerusalem.

 

[rwb]

So according to your logic, the book of Revelation is absolutely meaningless because it's all just symbolic, and a symbolic book. It's not telling us about anything that's literal.

Who says the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is all symbolic? Btw symbolism isn't meaningless when you learn what the symbols mean. Revelation becomes absolutely meaningless when one tries to force literalism throughout. For instance, saying chapter 1 is ALL literal. Does anyone really believe literal flame of fire comes out of the eyes of Christ? When we understand the symbolism, we understand the flame of fire symbolizes judgment against those things seen as evil.

 

[rwb]

The1000 year reign with Christ is not here on this Earth, scripture says we will be with him. Wherever he is that's where we'll be for that 1000 yrs.

The devil is loosed back upon Earth to deceive Gog and Magog after the thousand year reign with Christ.

In the KJV it is not said that the millennium will take place here on Earth.

And almost immediately following the loosing of the devil on Gog and Magog the remaining people, which are many, and the devil will be burnt up. And according to scripture so will the earth and this heaven.

We have a tendency to acquaint all things written with this old Earth when many may actually be speaking of the new Earth and the new heaven and the New Jerusalem.

I understand what you're saying Sheila and wish to add, a/the thousand years of Rev 20 symbolizes time. It isn't literally one thousand years as so many try to force into the text. Those of vs 4 John sees in heaven as martyred living souls because in life, or during their lifetimes on this earth they "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." That doesn't mean these martyred saints lived and reigned with Christ for ONE thousand literal years, but that in TIME (a thousand years) by grace through faith they believed in Christ, so within their lifetimes (a thousand years) they lived and reigned with Him. It doesn't matter whether they believed for one day before being martyred, or their entire life, they still lived and reigned with Christ by grace through faith during this symbolic time.

We know without doubting a/the thousand years are symbolically representing time because in vs 6 John says there will be others called blessed and holy, who have part in the first resurrection, and have no fear of the second death, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. These shall also within their lifetimes, symbolized a thousand years live and reign with Christ by grace through faith when they believe in Christ and are born again. Through His Spirit in them they join the faithful martyred saints in heaven, not through martyrdom as those in vs 4, but still belonging spiritually to the Kingdom of God in heaven during their lifetimes (a thousand years). This is why we know without doubt a/the thousand years symbolize time given this earth for building the spiritual Kingdom of God. This time is both already past and yet in the future according to John, and that's why it cannot be literally ONE thousand years.

Then, just as you have said the thousand years expire. Since this symbolically represents time given this earth for people to believe in Christ when they hear the Gospel through the power of Christ's Spirit, when the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete, this time (the thousand years) ends, and Satan is set free for a little season. After the little season Christ comes again to gather together all His people from heaven and this earth, and as you've said the Devil, Gog (antichrists) and Magog (antichristians) will all be burned up with this heavens and earth, and everything still alive upon the earth by the fire that comes down from God out of heaven.

 

[Truth7t7]

How sad that you do not believe what is written, but only the incorrect English word chosen by fallible men when translating it.

Your now a Hebrew/Greek scholar and translator, smiles!

 

[Zao is life]

Your now a Hebrew/Greek scholar and translator, smiles!

Aren't we lucky that we don't have to be because the Hebrew scholars and translators have given us the dictionary definitions of words so that when the same word is used consistently we can easily see when it hasn't been accurately translated by your Greek gods, the translators of the KJV.

 

[Timtofly]

It isn't necessary to live for a thousand literal years because a thousand years symbolizes TIME in which every human lives in. To have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years symbolizes having lived and reigned with Christ during time. Not a thousand literal years but in TIME.

Why is your argument based on necessity? There is no indication in Revelation 20 that this "a thousand" years symbolizes time. Both points are your opinion. If we take another verse in Revelation like Revelation 13:5

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

Is this also just symbolizing TIME in which every person lives? How can you just arbitrarily decide which amounts of time given in Revelation fit your symbolic criteria?

Do we throw out context? You have been shown from Genesis 5 that humans are very capable of living thousands of years. That they did not need to live that long. They just did. They stopped living that long, because God sent the Flood and changed humanity from living thousands of years to living only 120 years. Do we need to live 120 years? Do we need to live 1 year? Do we need to live 42 months?

Are you saying that 42 months could also mean an indefinite amount of time, sometime in the past?

You keep quoting using the words "have" and "having". Why do you add your own words to Revelation 20 thinking you have a point? Do you think that is wise adding your own word to Revelation 20 to prove your point? The argument is that this verb is in the aorist tense meaning the past. It also has no bearing on the present. If this has already happened then John also saw it as already completed. There is no continuing on into the present from the past. It was completed when John saw it happen. So the time was completed as well, and cannot be indefinite at all. This can only be a definite completed period of time, just like the 42 months was a definite completed time period. That is not my opinion. That is the rule of grammar so we know exactly what the author intended. Even if John had not given us the length, this would have already been completed and not ongoing until today.

How would that compare to those reading Revelation 20 in 100AD? Would they not see it the same way as being completed in the past? So explain to me when did this happen prior to the first century? When was Satan bound for a completed 1000 years, where humans also lived and completed that 1,000 years with Christ? Which past millennia prior to the Cross would that apply to? This was not an ongoing event left open ended, even in the first century.

This context tells us a few things. What John saw was not in the past. What John saw was future but written as already completed in the past. John did not write as if he would see these things some day. These events were not even prophetic visions. Daniel wrote what he saw and called them visions, that were prophetic of the future. When John wrote he had already witnessed the event as if it happened in the past. John was not pretending they already happened. What John experienced literally happened and he wrote down what he saw immediately after the event being written about. In Revelation 20, the event was a literal 1,000 years, that John wrote as being completed in the past, after it was over.

So he did not write down the first half of Revelation 20, and then a thousand years later write down the second half after the thousand years. The whole chapter included the whole event that John was a witness to. And nothing in that chapter had anything to do with the present time of John sending out letters in the first century. Nothing implied, nothing symbolic, literally no first century events can be attributed to anything in Revelation 20. This was all completed before John experienced Revelation 21. Yet the events from the point John left earth in the power of the Holy Spirit were all future, even still future today, as none of them have happened yet. That is why the aorist tense was used. John was writing from the point of view he saw every thing as completed and in the past from the perspective he was actually writing them down. That means John did not write them from memory after waking from a dream. John was writing them down as they were being completed. We know that because of this verse:

"And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not."

So literally after the 1,000 years had finished in John's experience, he wrote down Revelation 20. Because John was doing that throughout the book in the order of events as they were witnessed/experienced. That is why it is written in the aorist tense as past and completed. Not that they shall reign, or shall have reigned, starting in the first century. Not even symbolically. And certainly it is not written as have reigned. That would indicate an implication that Amil assert about the chapter.

 

[Timtofly]

Why do you equate 930 years the man Adam lived to one thousand literal years? Do you believe that because the years of Adams life were literally 930 years, a/the thousand years must also be literal years?

That would hardly be the point as equating things does not work for Amil either. Some equate the use of a thousand in the OT as figurative meaning that John is equating a thousand years with a thousand hills.

So, no we are not equating that Adam lived 930 years which almost equals 1000 years.

We are pointing out conditions on the earth that allowed humans to live for very long periods of time. Had the Flood not happened, humans would still be living for thousands of years, and probably even longer than those mentioned in Genesis 5. Unless they had wars and killed each other and totally destroyed the earth, so no one could live. The point was those not in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, never even died at all, until they were destroyed in the Flood. The Flood happened at least 1500 years after Adam was kicked out of the Garden of Eden. For all we know the only people who died naturally, were those mentioned in that chapter. Not sure why you think death was natural and an every day occurrence. The only two people condemned to die was Adam and Eve, not the sons of God scattered across the earth.

Adam died and was not the first, because Cain killed Abel before Seth was even born. An offspring of Cain closer to the time of the Flood, bragged about killing 2 people. So up until the time Noah was born, people were not literally dying. It was after the sons of God had offspring with Adam's dead corruptible flesh, that people even started killing each other, marrying and divorcing, and living in open wickedness that God had to step in and kill them all. But that would have been during Noah's first 400 years of life.

The point is not that they lived for a thousand years, even though they did. They no longer reigned with Christ after the 1,000 years, because there was a NHNE, and the New Jerusalem descended from heaven. They would then live outside of the confines of the New Jerusalem, and those in the New Jerusalem then lived and reigned for an unspecified amount of time with the Lord, not just Jesus as King in the old Jerusalem, because old Jerusalem no longer existed. John did not experience the end of the NHNE.

Sin and death will not be normal everyday life after the 7th Trumpet. Daniel 9:24 will be in full effect for all on earth. People will be born with the knowledge of God already programmed in their minds from conception. No one will be taught God's Word. No one will have a sin nature, nor the Holy Spirit leading them to salvation. They will never die, and never face the second death, as long as they remain obedient. The iron rod is still in effect, because the first act of disobedience will result in instant death, as an enemy of the state. No one will be arrested and put in prison. They will simply be found in Death and never even found in the Lamb's book of life, because there was no need for redemption at conception, like today.

 

[rwb]

Why is your argument based on necessity? There is no indication in Revelation 20 that this "a thousand" years symbolizes time. Both points are your opinion. If we take another verse in Revelation like Revelation 13:5

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

Is this also just symbolizing TIME in which every person lives? How can you just arbitrarily decide which amounts of time given in Revelation fit your symbolic criteria?

What is written proves itself that "a thousand years" equates to time when faithful saints are alive on this earth before they physically die. John is NOT seeing resurrected physical bodies that have lived and reigned (past tense) with Christ for ONE thousand literal years. Because NONE will be physically resurrected before the last trumpet sounds. Thats the seventh trumpet which sounds "there should be time no longer." (Rev 10:5-7)

Therefore, John is given to understand the souls of humans who had already lived and reigned with Christ in time (a thousand years) are not dead but are spiritually alive in heaven being faithful unto death, so they received a crown of life, just as Christ told John to write they would.

Here is another symbolic reference to time found in Revelation. When John writes of being tried and having tribulation for ten days, it does not equate to exactly TEN literal twenty-four-hour days. Ten is referring to fullness or complete IOW in this world many saints will be called to physical sufferings that will lead them unto death. But instead of physical death destroying, the faithful saints receive a "crown of life."

Revelation 2:10 (KJV) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

This is how John can see (understand) there is still a living soul (spirit) in heaven of faithful saints who have already lived and reigned with Christ in time (a thousand years) who were faithful unto death. Their physical body returned to the earth, and as living (spirit) soul they ascended to heaven to be with the Lord until time given this earth should be no longer. (1Cor 15:44)

When we continue to read in context, vs 6 shows us that others John writes are blessed and holy, hath part in the first resurrection, no fear of the second death, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years. IOW it's not only the saints who were beheaded for their faith that shall reign with Christ in time (a thousand years). The full number of all who shall be spiritually alive as living souls in heaven after physical death, must first be born to reign in time (a thousand years) with Christ. Both those who have already died in Christ, having already lived and reigned with Christ, and those who shall in life reign with Christ, are faithful saints during their lifetimes, that John writes are a thousand years. If a thousand years does not equate to TIME given mankind on this earth to be born again in Christ, how can this time be already past for saints who have physically lived and died, but also future for those who shall be found of faith in Christ?

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As I've said, the text itself PROVES a thousand years equates to TIME given this earth to bring forth fruit as the Gospel of Christ is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world, and whosoever during their lifetime lives and reigns with Christ (believes in Him), HAVE eternal spiritual life with Christ in heaven after their bodies have physically succumbed to death.

 

[rwb]

If we take another verse in Revelation like Revelation 13:5

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

Is this also just symbolizing TIME in which every person lives? How can you just arbitrarily decide which amounts of time given in Revelation fit your symbolic criteria?

Both forty and two months and a thousand two hundred and sixty days symbolically represent time. Forty and two months symbolizes time given for tearing down, and a thousand two hundred ans sixty day symbolizes time given for building.

Revelation 11:2 (KJV) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Revelation 13:5 (KJV) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 11:3 (KJV) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 12:6 (KJV) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Both of these references equal the same amount of time given the forces for doing evil upon the earth and the forces for doing good upon the earth. They symbolize a time, and times and half a time when the woman (Church) on earth is being both nourished and persecuted while in the wilderness (earth). She (the church on earth) is protected but must also come face to face with the great dragon that was cast out of heaven, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world and his angels who were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:14 (KJV) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

If equal amounts of time were not given to Satan for destroying as given to Christ for building, then Satan would be able to accuse God as he had in the days of Job. Satan would be able to accuse God, saying His Church could not have been built if the hedge of protection surrounding the saints were removed. Satan would be able to say if God had not given him equal opportunity to come against the saints on earth, he would be able to turn them totally away from God. Then the Kingdom of God would never be completed, and evil would altogether destroy all that God had created just as he had tried to do during the days before the flood.

Job 1:8-12 (KJV) And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree, not only one of the strangest but also one of the weakest arguments I've ever seen!

That, too.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The really sad part is you flatly ignoring the fact that every time you read about Christ "ruling over the nations with a rod of iron" in the Revelation, it's a translation of the Greek word poimaino, which means to tend as a shepherd. Not "rule".

When used in combination with a rod of iron, that word means something very different than what you think it does. You are completely ignoring the context of Revelation 19:15 that depicts Him as destroying (smiting, striking) the very people that you think He will shepherd. You also seem to be ignoring Psalm 2:8-9 which indicates the same thing.

Revelation 19:15 "And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike (or smite) the nations. And He will shepherd [poimaino] them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God.

He first smites the nations, then He shepherds the nations after He has judged His enemies.

How sad that you do not want Jesus shepherding you with a rod of iron after He smites His enemies.

Why would I want that when it indicates that it's the heathen who He will be breaking/ruling with a rod of iron. Do you want Him to consider you to be one of the heathen?

Psalm 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Where are you getting the idea that it will be believers that He breaks/rules with a rod of iron? That is not indicated in the text at all. It is only the heathen (unbelievers). And that is indicated in Revelation 19:15-18 as well. It talks about the ones He rules with a rod of iron as being destroyed. So, a rod of iron is meant to represent a tool of revenge and destruction, not shepherding.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's funny, because it was not(and is not) strange to God who created Adam.

Some things take prayer, time, more prayer and child-like faith in our Heavenly FATHER'S Word.

Religion always spoils the fun of discovery.

No amount of prayer and time will make 930 years equivalent to a thousand years. If all you have to support your Premil doctrine are arguments like this, then I'm afraid you can't be taken seriously.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because you don't see what is there but hidden, and I'm not even going to talk about what that is, because you still won't see it.

Why is it hidden? If it's true then you should be able to show that clearly. But, you obviously can't. So, I can't take this seriously.

 

[David in NJ]

No amount of prayer and time will make 930 years equivalent to a thousand years. If all you have to support your Premil doctrine are arguments like this, then I'm afraid you can't be taken seriously.

Religion refuses where Truth makes no excuses.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Religion refuses where Truth makes no excuses.

These kinds of comments add nothing to this discussion. If the number of years Adam lived has anything whatsoever to do with the thousand years then you would be able to clearly show that. But, you can't. You need to find better arguments than that if you want to be taken seriously when trying to make arguments to support your Premil view.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Check the Greek word wrongly translated into English as "rule" in Revelation 2:27. It's poimaino - shepherd them.

Not that you'll bother going to the Bible - the actual biblical wording, because you have already chosen to believe what you want to.

How sad that you do not believe what is written, but only the incorrect English word chosen by fallible men when translating it. These men are your gods, and this is why you regard the KJV English as the divinely inspired Word of God, and no other translation.

Do you think the English words "break" and "dash" should have been translated as "shepherd" here as well?

Psalm 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Is Jesus going to shepherd people "in pieces like a potter's vessel" after He returns?

 

[Zao is life]

Do you think the English words "break" and "dash" should have been translated as "shepherd" here as well?

Psalm 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Is Jesus going to shepherd people "in pieces like a potter's vessel" after He returns?

You're only pretending that you don't know that a father chastises those whom he loves. You're only pretending that you don't understand how Jesus the Shepherd can shepherd the nations with an iron rod, after using the rod to smash His adversaries to pieces like pots.

You're only pretending that you don't understand that pots and pots being smashed to pieces and rods of iron and the word shepherd are all metaphors.

Plus you're choosing to ignore the fact that the Revelation uses the word shepherd in the original language and not the word "rule", and you're only pretending that you don't understand that the meaning of the Greek word for shepherd doesn't magically change just because English Bibles may use a different word that also expresses the rulership of Christ, but lacks the meaning that the Greek word for shepherd expresses.

So I cannot take you seriously in this discussion. Your arguments cannot be taken seriously at all in this discussion because you're doing a lot of pretending of ignorance (but this is what you normally do when you feel the need to defend Amil at all costs).

 

[Timtofly]

As I've said, the text itself PROVES a thousand years equates to TIME given this earth to bring forth fruit as the Gospel of Christ is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world, and whosoever during their lifetime lives and reigns with Christ (believes in Him), HAVE eternal spiritual life with Christ in heaven after their bodies have physically succumbed to death.

No it does not. There is no fruit produced in this 1,000 year period.

You assume people die and people are in need of redemption. None of this is stated nor implied. You are not even consistent that this is on earth or in heaven.

Of course a resurrection only happens after physical death. Why do you insist a resurrection happens before physical death?