Post your favorite UR verse for inspection

[ScottA]

Quite frankly, that's not a good analogy when referring to an Omniscient sovereign creator who exercises his will and plan that he predestined before the creation of earth or humans.

If I created an image of myself and then burned it because it was flawed and I judged it unworthy of remaining as a reminder of how I created it, and I chose to burn it because of its innate flaws that were my doing as creator, the flames wouldn't erase the fact I made a mistake I sought to destroy.

Rather, it would demonstrate I make mistakes.

If I burned that image while claiming its innate flaws were the responsibility of the created , and it therefore chose the flames of destruction, I'd be mistaken again.

And irresponsible for blaming that what I created flawed on the flawed creation itself.

People don't choose to go to the supposed lake of fire.
God chooses to judge them worthy of being sent there.

Human nature is God's responsibility.

Omniscience created Lucifer.

You have the wrong idea.

The creation is not a new evolving thing or plan of predestination. Predestination is simply a worldly term for what would appear to be unfolding from the worldly side of the equation. It's Birds and the Bees parental type language for things that are too complex for children.

To the contrary, the world is rather what was already so "before the foundation of the world"--that is, even before time was created. In other words, having no actual timeline. Meaning that creation rather is the revelation of what "is", as such things are written in a book and only known page by page...that is, only known to the reader--in this case, only to the characters in the book.

It is written, "knowledge shall increase." Let this be a test then. Did you understand what I just said?

 

[ButterflyJones]

You have the wrong idea.

The creation is not a new evolving thing or plan of predestination. Predestination is simply a worldly term for what would appear to be unfolding from the worldly side of the equation. It's Birds and the Bees parental type language for things that are too complex for children.

To the contrary, the world is rather what was already so "before the foundation of the world"--that is, even before time was created. In other words, having no actual timeline. Meaning that creation rather is the revelation of what "is", as such things are written in a book and only known page by page...that is, only known to the reader--in this case, only to the characters in the book.

It is written, "knowledge shall increase." Let this be a test then. Did you understand what I just said?

Yes, I understand you think yourself able to talk down to Christians so to feel more astute regarding the nature and characteristics of God.

 

[Chadrho]

I submit that the use of the words/terms "image" and "likeness" are not without purpose, and that God would have used other words/terms if things were what people perceive them to be.

Agreed. However, early interpreters understood image to be inherent and they understood likeness to be the telos/end. We are created in the image in order to grow (by grace) into the likeness of Christ. That is a common assumption across traditions. You seem to be saying the image is ephemeral and not inherent. That might sound like a small distinction but it ain't.

 

[St. SteVen]

That's a better way to put it. Would God make sport with creation?

Probably feeds into the Deist view as well.
That God created, but is hands off. Sits back and watches what happens. (entertainment)
Like a cosmic prankster. If I understand Deism correctly.

Prankster, or gangster? Take your pick, Damnationists. Joker or, Godfather.
An offer you can't refuse, or an exploding cigar?

A new definition for Damnationism perhaps: An exploding cigar you can't refuse. - LOL

Hey, where's Charlie? When the cat's away...

 

[Charlie24]

Not sure if we have looked at this one yet. cc: @Charlie24

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

OK, let's take a look at it.

I believe you want to understand this, Steven, so I'm going in some great detail to explain it. There are many things that must be said for you to understand this. There is no short way of explaining this to be properly understood. So I hope your attention span is up for the challenge!

We want to understand why Paul said in Rom. 11:32 "For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all." Stick with me on this, Steven, and it will all come together, with the Lord's help.

We will back up to Rom.11:25, beginning there and following through to our verse of discussion, vs. 32.

Rom. 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

The "blindness in part" is God turning from Israel to the Gentiles for Christ to be preached throughout the world. "Until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" is the Church Age that has been in effect from the 1st century through the present time, and will continue until the Lord comes. In other words, God has set Israel on the side burner and Is focusing on the salvation of the Gentiles. At the appointed time, God will deal with Israel and their salvation, but only after His Grace has finished its course with the Gentiles. Let me explain this.

God chose Israel as a nation he would create for the soul purpose of giving them the Law of God (the Law of Moses) when no other nation on earth had any Law of God. This was to prepare them for the coming Christ which would come through this chosen nation.

Israel in return was to evangelize the world, preach Jesus Christ as the Saviour of the world. This was the calling of Israel by God. But they failed by rejecting Christ, and God turned to the Gentiles for this task of preaching Christ to the world, until the appointed time that God would resurrect Israel in accepting Christ. Let me show this from Scripture.

Isaiah 49:6
“And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.”

This was the original calling of Israel, to proclaim the "light," Jesus Christ, as the Saviour of the world. But they failed and God turned to the Gentiles to proclaim the light of the Christ. God did this through the Apostle Paul.

Acts 13:46
“Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.”

So here we have a nation that was called by God for a specific purpose and they have failed through unbelief. They are now set on the side burner to be dealt with at a future time. Now let's call in remembrance our vs. in question. 11:32, "For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that He may have mercy upon all." We see here that God has concluded that Israel is in unbelief. So who are the "all" in unbelief?

It is the rest of the world (the Gentiles) who are in unbelief. But now God has turned to them. Through Israel's unbelief, God has turned to the Gentiles, concluding that "all are in unbelief that He may have mercy upon all." Both Israel and the Gentiles, the whole world is in unbelief.

Rom. 11:30-31
"For as ye in times past have not believed God (the Church), yet have now obtained mercy through their (Israel) unbelief:

Even so have these also now not believed (Israel), that through your mercy (the Church) they (Israel) also may obtain mercy."

You see, Steven, the mercy extended to the Gentile for salvation is the same mercy that God will extend to Israel as well in the future. That "He may have mercy upon all (the entire world).

Now let me explain why Israel is in unbelief to this very day, the reason God turned to the Gentiles, and how God has "had mercy upon all." I will do this in the next post.

 

[St. SteVen]

... early interpreters understood image to be inherent and they understood likeness to be the telos/end. ...

The image as potential? A reflection?
I think of ancient humankind seeing their own image reflected in water.

 

[St. SteVen]

Now let me explain why Israel is in unbelief to this very day, the reason God turned to the Gentiles, and how God has "had mercy upon all." I will do this in the next post.

Thanks, Charlie. I appreciate the effort.
Reminds of a comment from an earlier conversation. (quote from memory)
"Anything that takes that long to explain can't be true." - LOL

 

[Charlie24]

Thanks, Charlie. I appreciate the effort.
Reminds of a comment from an earlier conversation. (quote from memory)
"Anything that takes that long to explain can't be true." - LOL

OK, Steven! I see that the second part is not necessary, you are not interested!

And you will never understand either! All because you refuse to understand.

So be it! I did what I was instructed to do in good faith.

 

[St. SteVen]

OK, Steven! I see that the second part is not necessary, you are not interested!

And you will never understand either! All because you refuse to understand.

So be it! I did what I was instructed to do in good faith.

No. Please continue. I want to hear you out on this.
Don't surrender now.

I want you to explain why "all" is not all.
We have Israel, and we have the gentile nations. Who is missing?
Why do you think that is not "all"?

 

[Charlie24]

No. Please continue. I want to hear you out on this.
Don't surrender now.

I want you to explain why "all" is not all.
We have Israel, and we have the gentile nations. Who is missing?
Why do you think that is not "all"?

Paul taught us there is a time to turn from the unbelieving and the hard of hearing, to better things in Christ.

This is one of those times!

 

[MatthewG]

Is the spirit able to do so?

 

[Charlie24]

Is the spirit able to do so?

Paul moved on from unbelief after he made known the truth. The Holy Spirit can do all things, but He will not force anything upon man according to his free will. Man will decide his own way, God has made sure of that!

 

[MatthewG]

God will be pleased with human beings engulfed forever in flames of burning fur some people’s belief. Thumbs up for that sectional of traditional teachings.

Don’t know how it will feel to be burned spiritually other than the burn of rejection of my own denial and rejecting the works of Christ; resurrecting standing wuth condemned spirit body. No entry to the pearl gates told to sit out and stay in the land where darkness lays; those fire flames through is the heavenly Jerusalem the only view in sight? What abiut the outer court, will it be filled with unbelievable amounts of people who enjoy darkness, in that heavenly realm?

 

[Charlie24]

God will be pleased with human beings engulfed forever in flames of burning fur some people’s belief. Thumbs up for that sectional of traditional teachings.

Don’t know how it will feel to be burned spiritually other than the burn of rejection of my own denial and rejecting the works of Christ; resurrecting standing wuth condemned spirit body. No entry to the pearl gates told to sit out and stay in the land where darkness lays; those fire flames through is the heavenly Jerusalem the only view in sight? What abiut the outer court, will it be filled with unbelievable amounts of people who enjoy darkness, in that heavenly realm?

The Scripture says, "God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked." I don't believe anyone feels that He does, this is just UR propaganda they like to use, and God is not pleased with this either!

Hell is the place of the spiritual dead, in other words, the body is in the grave but the spirit is in hell, and yes, the spirit of man feels the pain.

When Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire, this is after the judgment where the body in the grave reunites with the soul and spirit of man. This is the final place of the unsaved, they will have the indestructible body along with the soul and spirit forever in the flames.

There are only 2 places that man can spend eternity, in the Lake of Fire or in the presence of the Lord. There is nothing in between as you are suggesting here!

 

[ScottA]

Yes, I understand you think yourself able to talk down to Christians so to feel more astute regarding the nature and characteristics of God.

Why are you offended when it is written, "for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit?"

You of little faith. Do you believe that none of this was to come, even though it has been foretold?

 

[ScottA]

Agreed. However, early interpreters understood image to be inherent and they understood likeness to be the telos/end. We are created in the image in order to grow (by grace) into the likeness of Christ. That is a common assumption across traditions. You seem to be saying the image is ephemeral and not inherent. That might sound like a small distinction but it ain't.

All the times of this world are noted merely as "silence in heaven for about a half an hour." Is that not but a very short time?

 

[MatthewG]

The Scripture says, "God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked." I don't believe anyone feels that He does, this is just UR propaganda they like to use, and God is not pleased with this either!

Hell is the place of the spiritual dead, in other words, the body is in the grave but the spirit is in hell, and yes, the spirit of man feels the pain.

When Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire, this is after the judgment where the body in the grave reunites with the soul and spirit of man. This is the final place of the unsaved, they will have the indestructible body along with the soul and spirit forever in the flames.

There are only 2 places that man can spend eternity, in the Lake of Fire or in the presence of the Lord. There is nothing in between as you are suggesting here!

Thankful they don’t die, and I don’t know if what you says may be true that suggest that those that go into the lake of fire are completely destroyed forever, if you can show me a verse that says differently that what I remember it is that people who experience the lake of fire only are given a portion.

The whole decision to look at it is complete destruction would be false if people are raised in a spiritual condemned body. And John mentioned people living on the outside is for one to consider what that could mean against the religious traditions.

 

[ButterflyJones]

All the times of this world are noted merely as "silence in heaven for about a half an hour." Is that not but a very short time?

2 Peter 3:8 “But do not forget this one thing dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day.”

 

[St. SteVen]

Next.
The forerunner knew why Jesus was here. To take away the sin of the world!
Where do you suppose He took it away to?

John 1:29 NIV
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

 

[Charlie24]

Next.
The forerunner knew why Jesus was here. To take away the sin of the world!
Where do you suppose He took it away to?

John 1:29 NIV
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

The Scripture says he takes away sin as far as the east from the west. Never to remember again.

I think maybe the emphasis is on the never remembering again.