Postrib vs Dispy.

[Randy Kluth]

Hardly, I should say!

Which is the nation whom God covenanted with as He did with Israel?

I don't know any.

Much love!

I can't speak for God, but it is recorded that God made a covenant with the nation of Israel. To say that God has *not* made any covenants with other nations is speaking for God. I would assume that God accepts a nation's determination to have Christianity as its main religion, just as Israel proclaimed in the presence of God, "We will serve the Lord, and Him only."

Why would you think that God would only accept Israel and not any other nation? The Bible says that 1) God does not change, and 2) God is impartial. Furthermore, all things are "yes" with God when people act in concert with the word of God.

If you respond and say that nothing in the Scriptures show a covenant between God and other nations, I'll say what I have before. The Scriptures were written *before* there were Christian nations. But God predicted that there would be Christian nations.

So if our argument is purely whether there have been Christian nations, again, you should consult your average encyclopedia. You'll find that I'm completely right. But if you wish to speak for God and proclaim that God has *not* accepted Christian nations in accordance with His new covenant, then I'd say you're in danger of using God's name in vain.

God speaks for Himself, and He has indicated that He has determined there to be Christian nations.

Matt 21.43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit."

Gal 3.8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

 

[amigo de christo]

Hey!! Stay behind if you want but not me.
Thessalonians 4:13-18

Believers Who Have Died
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be """caught up""" together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The GLORIOUS KING JESUS shall indeed RIP THE SKY and unto HIM shall the lambs then FLY .
But beware O world and false all inclusive we are one religoins , For on that day YE shall wail . Folks time is getting shorter and shorter .
My advice is CLING TO THE KING and so long as we are in this world be prepared to suffer and even die for HIM . Be prepared to lose
all for the glorious KING . THE END REWARD IS GREAT . PONDER on the reward that comes at the END of our faith .

 

[Keraz]

I do think God is going to remake a *Jewish Israel.

People who believe that the Jewish State of Israel has any special attributes or place in world affairs, have very thick blinkers on and are strongly biased for their own reasons.
What I say and have posed here, is not anti-Semitism, but valid criticism of a nation, consisting of a mixed racial population, who have successfully made their nation prosper, despite the constant external threats of annihilation.
They are a shining example of a democracy amid a sea of autocratic ruled countries.

However, I and many other believers in the God of Creation, know from the Word He has given to His people, that what exists now in all of the Land designated to be given to Abrahams descendants: Genesis 15:18, is not yet occupied in accordance with God's intentions.

I am confidant that one day it will be and those people will be descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as their genetics are ubiquitous and as Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9 and Revelation 7:9 all say; they will be the faithful believers of God and the keepers of His Commandments, from every tribe, race, nation and language.
Great will be that Day!

 

[Randy Kluth]

People who believe that the Jewish State of Israel has any special attributes or place in world affairs, have very thick blinkers on and are strongly biased for their own reasons.
What I say and have posed here, is not anti-Semitism, but valid criticism of a nation, consisting of a mixed racial population, who have successfully made their nation prosper, despite the constant external threats of annihilation.
They are a shining example of a democracy amid a sea of autocratic ruled countries.

However, I and many other believers in the God of Creation, know from the Word He has given to His people, that what exists now in all of the Land designated to be given to Abrahams descendants: Genesis 15:18, is not yet occupied in accordance with God's intentions.

I am confidant that one day it will be and those people will be descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as their genetics are ubiquitous and as Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9 and Revelation 7:9 all say; they will be the faithful believers of God and the keepers of His Commandments, from every tribe, race, nation and language.
Great will be that Day!

The racial component is not perhaps as questionable as you may think. Who else other than Jews would support, against persecution, their own racial and cultural heritage? Mixed as all genetic groups are, all ethnicities maintain the dominant flavor of those belonging to their name.

Here in the U.S. we know who are Indians, who are Latinos, who are African American, and who are of European stock. These ethnicities are not unduly confused by mixing with other "breeds."

No, the Jews exist to sustain their ethnic heritage, as well as their religious heritage. And the existence of other ethnic groups who have embraced Judaism does not mean the Jewish People are any less the Jewish People.

The survival of Jewish ethnicity is not "Satan's trick," but rather, the product of divine grace. God still plans to restore them, albeit after a substantial number are removed to remove Judaism itself.

So what can we agree on? We can agree that Israel today is not what God plans for Israel tomorrow. We can agree that Christianity properly represents what God wanted out of Israel from the beginning, even though He didn't get that except through a very small Jewish remnant.

But we cannot agree that the Church will somehow destroy all ethnic differences and then replace Israel, as an ethnic group, in the land of Israel. One day, the New Jerusalem may indeed be there. But it may only be a meeting place for all ethnicities, just as it was for all the tribes of Israel in the OT era.

 

[Keraz]

So what can we agree on? We can agree that Israel today is not what God plans for Israel tomorrow. We can agree that Christianity properly represents what God wanted out of Israel from the beginning, even though He didn't get that except through a very small Jewish remnant.

Agreed, thank you.

Regarding ethnicity, it is a very misleading and inconclusive thing. You know, surely; that black Ethiopians and Asian Indians have successfully fooled the Jewish immigration Department and basically anyone who genuinely converts to Judaism, is classified as a Jew and qualified to make aliya.
This makes a mockery of the idea that Jewish Israel is still God's chosen people, or have any claim to special treatment by God.

 

[Truth7t7]

The racial component is not perhaps as questionable as you may think. Who else other than Jews would support, against persecution, their own racial and cultural heritage? Mixed as all genetic groups are, all ethnicities maintain the dominant flavor of those belonging to their name.

Here in the U.S. we know who are Indians, who are Latinos, who are African American, and who are of European stock. These ethnicities are not unduly confused by mixing with other "breeds."

No, the Jews exist to sustain their ethnic heritage, as well as their religious heritage. And the existence of other ethnic groups who have embraced Judaism does not mean the Jewish People are any less the Jewish People.

The survival of Jewish ethnicity is not "Satan's trick," but rather, the product of divine grace. God still plans to restore them, albeit after a substantial number are removed to remove Judaism itself.

So what can we agree on? We can agree that Israel today is not what God plans for Israel tomorrow. We can agree that Christianity properly represents what God wanted out of Israel from the beginning, even though He didn't get that except through a very small Jewish remnant.

But we cannot agree that the Church will somehow destroy all ethnic differences and then replace Israel, as an ethnic group, in the land of Israel. One day, the New Jerusalem may indeed be there. But it may only be a meeting place for all ethnicities, just as it was for all the tribes of Israel in the OT era.

Judaism finds its belief in the Rabbinical Talmud and Occultic Kabbalah, wake up!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Agreed, thank you.

Regarding ethnicity, it is a very misleading and inconclusive thing. You know, surely; that black Ethiopians and Asian Indians have successfully fooled the Jewish immigration Department and basically anyone who genuinely converts to Judaism, is classified as a Jew and qualified to make aliya.
This makes a mockery of the idea that Jewish Israel is still God's chosen people, or have any claim to special treatment by God.

Keraz, I spent 10 years on a forum discussing this kind of thing about Jews. The bottom line is that Jews feel that being a Jew is a religious matter primarily. So any ethnicity can be a Jew.

When I speak, however, of God's promise to Abraham to have a biological nation, we are speaking of an ethnicity. What keeps the ethnicity together is in part due to the Jewish religion, because it was a central feature of their culture. Without a nation for centuries the culture that united Jews was partly religious.

So when we speak of "Jews," we are speaking of any ethnicity that has adopted the Jewish religion. But when we're speaking of the fulfillment of God's promises, we're talking about Jewish ethnicity that has historically been held together by Judaism.

 

[Randy Kluth]

People who believe that the Jewish State of Israel has any special attributes or place in world affairs, have very thick blinkers on and are strongly biased for their own reasons.
What I say and have posed here, is not anti-Semitism, but valid criticism of a nation, consisting of a mixed racial population, who have successfully made their nation prosper, despite the constant external threats of annihilation.
They are a shining example of a democracy amid a sea of autocratic ruled countries.

Of the more than 200 major nations of the world, *all* have special attributes and a place in world affairs. They don't have to be Christian and they don't have to be spelled out in Bible Prophecy to have a significant place in world affairs. If they are a nation, God has made them, and they belong in His plan.

Israel was born, however, with special attributes of faith. God designed them to be the prototype of the Nation of God as an example for all future nations that want to be nations of God. The special attribute of faith operates even when a nation falls, like Israel. Many Christian nations have fallen, and yet continue to exhibit special abilities.

Rom 11.29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

However, I and many other believers in the God of Creation, know from the Word He has given to His people, that what exists now in all of the Land designated to be given to Abrahams descendants: Genesis 15:18, is not yet occupied in accordance with God's intentions.

Eze 36 suggests that God begins His program of restoration in Israel by initiating an outreach that is not deserved by the Israelis. I believe it is, in fact, God's plan that Palestine be reoccupied by Jews, and that the Jewish nation be established in peace.

Eze 36.22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes."

I am confidant that one day it will be and those people will be descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as their genetics are ubiquitous and as Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9 and Revelation 7:9 all say; they will be the faithful believers of God and the keepers of His Commandments, from every tribe, race, nation and language.
Great will be that Day!

Nations are determined by boundaries and by gene pools. A nation may consist of several races, but when we talk about a nation like Israel we're talking about a gene pool that it is not ubiquitously spread throughout the world into other races. We're talking about a gene pool traceable back through the Jewish culture to Abraham via Judaism.

 

[marks]

I can't speak for God, but it is recorded that God made a covenant with the nation of Israel. To say that God has *not* made any covenants with other nations is speaking for God.

To say that He has or hasn't is to go outside of Scripture.

Should we try to understand Biblical doctrine based on maybe's? I like to stay with It Is Written, as it were. Then I feel I have a solid foundation.

Why would you think that God would only accept Israel and not any other nation?

God's dealings with Israel are unique in the Bible. There are national statuses in the Bible, but not anything like Israel.

Who else was there to hear God speak from Mount Horeb? The Bible points to that distinction.

I find it difficult to understand why you would think that God HAS made Israel-like covenants with other nations.

Much love!

 

[GISMYS_7]

Israel = God's chosen people for all eternity and the New Jerusalem God's eternal home with His family.

 

[Randy Kluth]

To say that He has or hasn't is to go outside of Scripture.

Should we try to understand Biblical doctrine based on maybe's? I like to stay with It Is Written, as it were. Then I feel I have a solid foundation.


God's dealings with Israel are unique in the Bible. There are national statuses in the Bible, but not anything like Israel.

Who else was there to hear God speak from Mount Horeb? The Bible points to that distinction.

I find it difficult to understand why you would think that God HAS made Israel-like covenants with other nations.

Much love!

I think I pretty much spelled it out already. 1) God did in fact make a covenant with Israel. 2) God made His work with Israel a blueprint for His works with other nations. 3) God promised Abraham a posterity among many nations of faith. 3) The NT Scriptures indicate that Christian nations are the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise.

Rom 4.16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”

1 Cor 10.11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

The fact the Scripture were written *before* the fulfillment of these Christians nations does not make it extra-biblical. As I said, the Scriptures pointedly said it would happen.

Jesus indicated that national faith would be taken from Israel and given to the Romans. And Paul predicted these would be Christian nations.

This follows the pattern of the 4th empire of Dan 2 and 7, which I believe is the Roman Empire. It would be monolithic and then break up into nation-states. The gospel followed this pattern, by passing from the Jewish nation to Gentile nations spawned from the ancient Roman Empire.

Matt 21.43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit."

Gal 3.8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

I admit that this is not a common teaching. But I believe it is nevertheless true, and I'm substantiating it from the Scriptures.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If you deny there are no "Christian nations" you must be a "flat-earther?" You will find "Christian nations" in the encyclopedia of your choice. Denying that is the equivalent of denying you exist.

I do appreciate that you think I will go up in the Pretrib Rapture, even though I'm not expecting it. We are brothers. But don't worry--it's not going to happen in my book.

Well what encyclopedias call Christian nations and what the Bible would call Christian nations are two widely different things.

America was a nation founded on Christian principles and in many of the founding charters gave glory to god and sought to build th eland to His glory. but we are no longer even close to those. We are no longer a Christian nation.

Most nations that were "Christianized" may have had a period of religious fervor but all without exception are apostate nations now! Only Israel has spelled out in Scripture a unique and special covenant made with god.

Adding flat earther to your disagreement only makes you seem pre-pubescent.

Christians were never promiosed by god to a specific land, we are a people who were no people. We are a gathering from all gentile groups and Jews to form one body. We are given a heavenly hope, no ethnic promise of a certain geography.

We are toldl to consider this earth as not our home and to be strangers and aliens and ambassadors on this planet for the kingdom of our Savior and of our Father.

Israel has been promised an eternal land inheritance.

They also as a nation will be born again at the end of the tribulation time. Every single Jew surviving will get saved! And as Zech writes it will only be 1/3 of all Jews who entered into the tribulation period. But for now a remanat from each generation gets saved and becomes part of the body of Christ. Once the rapture takes place, the body of christ is closed!

All who get saved in the trib time are saints and saved but not Christians just like OT saints are saved are not Christians either. This distinction is clearly spelled out in Scripture as only for Jesus 1,000 year kingdom on earth. We know not what eternity brings.

And it is the OT that shows the promises God made to Israel. as a nation they are currently divorced from the Father but it also clearly shows that the Father will rewed Israel as a nation. the church is the pespoused of Christ and we do not wed jesus until REv. 19 in heaven prior to His return to earth to rescue Israel from the all out was of Antichrist

 

[amigo de christo]

Judaism finds its belief in the Rabbinical Talmud and Occultic Kabbalah, wake up!

I am afraid our dear friend is right . They cling to kabbala almighty . What a death book that is .
Let all preach JESUS to the jews and the gentiles . ONLY HOPE ONE HAS .

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well what encyclopedias call Christian nations and what the Bible would call Christian nations are two widely different things.

America was a nation founded on Christian principles and in many of the founding charters gave glory to god and sought to build th eland to His glory. but we are no longer even close to those. We are no longer a Christian nation.

Most nations that were "Christianized" may have had a period of religious fervor but all without exception are apostate nations now! Only Israel has spelled out in Scripture a unique and special covenant made with god.

Adding flat earther to your disagreement only makes you seem pre-pubescent.

lol! I just meant to point out that "Christian nations" is not an obscure claim--it is ubiquitous in Western literature. It is the *equivalent of* being a "flat-earther" to deny the *encyclopedia definition.*

And I am, in fact, using the encyclopedia definition. Your "Christian definition" is at odds with the encyclopedia's definition. That makes you a manipulator of terms.

But I do understand the point. I'm not insulting you in regard to your "Christian definition"--only in regard to your denial of the encyclopedia's definition. Now that you admit that, we can begin at square one.

Christians were never promiosed by god to a specific land, we are a people who were no people. We are a gathering from all gentile groups and Jews to form one body. We are given a heavenly hope, no ethnic promise of a certain geography.

Now you're denying geographical realities, or you're denying that Godhad a role in determining boundaries for the nations, which is directly contrary to the Scriptures.

Psa 74.17 It was you who set all the boundaries of the earth...

We are toldl to consider this earth as not our home and to be strangers and aliens and ambassadors on this planet for the kingdom of our Savior and of our Father.

Israel has been promised an eternal land inheritance.

They also as a nation will be born again at the end of the tribulation time. Every single Jew surviving will get saved!

I seriously doubt that. That has never been true of any nation. The thought that somehow Israel gets a special exemption from the plight of fallen human nature disturbs me and sounds very partial.

And as Zech writes it will only be 1/3 of all Jews who entered into the tribulation period. But for now a remanat from each generation gets saved and becomes part of the body of Christ. Once the rapture takes place, the body of christ is closed!

This is more of Pretrib mythology. Israel has been marginalized for most of NT history. Up until recently Israel hasn't even been a country. But they are going to enter into the time of Antichrist's domination as a final test, which will, I believe, destroy Judaism forever, and along with it all those who stubbornly cling to it. A remnant of Jews will be left in Israel to reconstitute the nation along Christian lines. That's my take on it.

All who get saved in the trib time are saints and saved but not Christians just like OT saints are saved are not Christians either. This distinction is clearly spelled out in Scripture as only for Jesus 1,000 year kingdom on earth. We know not what eternity brings.

"Clearly" spelled out? Where? Nothing is more *unclear* that what you're claiming to be true! Saved People are Christians, period. Just calling them persecuted "saints" doesn't make them non-Christians! When they follow Christ, they're Christians, period.

And it is the OT that shows the promises God made to Israel. as a nation they are currently divorced from the Father but it also clearly shows that the Father will rewed Israel as a nation. the church is the pespoused of Christ and we do not wed jesus until REv. 19 in heaven prior to His return to earth to rescue Israel from the all out was of Antichrist

We are engaged, in covenant, to Christ, and the engagement will be consummated as an eternal marriage. This marriage merely symbolizes our glorification event, in which we become like Christ physically--immortal and sinless. Anybody who converts to Christ "in the Tribulation" will like any Christian be engaged to Christ and be a legitimate Christian!

 

[Truth7t7]

Israel = God's chosen people for all eternity and the New Jerusalem God's eternal home with His family.

The Church Is The Israel Of God, Children Of The Promised Seed

 

[Truth7t7]

I can't speak for God, but it is recorded that God made a covenant with the nation of Israel. To say that God has *not* made any covenants with other nations is speaking for God. I would assume that God accepts a nation's determination to have Christianity as its main religion, just as Israel proclaimed in the presence of God, "We will serve the Lord, and Him only."

Why would you think that God would only accept Israel and not any other nation? The Bible says that 1) God does not change, and 2) God is impartial. Furthermore, all things are "yes" with God when people act in concert with the word of God.

If you respond and say that nothing in the Scriptures show a covenant between God and other nations, I'll say what I have before. The Scriptures were written *before* there were Christian nations. But God predicted that there would be Christian nations.

So if our argument is purely whether there have been Christian nations, again, you should consult your average encyclopedia. You'll find that I'm completely right. But if you wish to speak for God and proclaim that God has *not* accepted Christian nations in accordance with His new covenant, then I'd say you're in danger of using God's name in vain.

God speaks for Himself, and He has indicated that He has determined there to be Christian nations.

Matt 21.43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit."

Gal 3.8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

God made a covenant with Abraham, and it was fulfilled in Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago

Galatians 3:16-29KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Randy Kluth]

God made a covenant with Abraham, and it was fulfilled in Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago

Galatians 3:16-29KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Notice that the promise was made both to Abraham and to Christ. So it involves both Abraham and Christ, but this does not mean that the coming of Christ completed what was promised. What was promised to both Abraham and Christ was a family of nations with the faith of Christ. That has been taking place over the last 2000 years, as nation after nation has embraced Christianity.

Granted, Christian nations fall, just as Israel fell. But that doesn't mean that these nations will fall forever. I believe that Christ will come, and destroy the powers that prevent these nations from succeeding in their faith. When Christ comes again, Antichrist will be defeated, and Satan will be jailed. Then Israel will be restored to faith in God, and adopt Christianity together with the many other nations who have done so.

Then the fallen Christian nations will be purged of their faithlessness, and be restored. That's why, I believe, Christians and saints in the present and former ages will be appointed as judges, to determine the level of compliance God requires in the age to come. Nations, at that time, will achieve the full level of fulfillment of the promise God made to both Abraham and Christ.

 

[marks]

lol! I just meant to point out that "Christian nations" is not an obscure claim--it is ubiquitous in Western literature. It is the *equivalent of* being a "flat-earther" to deny the *encyclopedia definition.*

For me, at the end of the day, only individuals obtain salvation and resultant relationship with God. Cultural Christianity aside, as I don't think God looks at that in giving rebirth.

But the earth IS round!

 

[Randy Kluth]

For me, at the end of the day, only individuals obtain salvation and resultant relationship with God. Cultural Christianity aside, as I don't think God looks at that in giving rebirth.

But the earth IS round!

Yes, of course I know you believe that. And I agree with your definition of "true Christianity." I will say it again. God has called for the existence of "Christian nations." And they do not require that every individual in them be born again, practicing Christians. It is enough for them to be nations, the vast majority of whom have chosen to adopt Christianity as their national religion. This has nothing to do with a national church, but only with a national religion.

Neither do I think the terms "church" and "Christian" require 100% conformity to the idea of a born again, practicing groups of Christians. Many professing Christians are in church and are not yet fully committed to the idea. Some will make it, and some will not.

But until such time as this matter is resolved, they are "churches" and "Christians." And they live, sometimes, in "Christian nations." I think it serves us well to use these terms, without being idealistic and requiring perfection. I don't think that was the intention of the Bible.

 

[marks]

"Clearly" spelled out? Where? Nothing is more *unclear* that what you're claiming to be true! Saved People are Christians, period. Just calling them persecuted "saints" doesn't make them non-Christians! When they follow Christ, they're Christians, period.

Actually, there are some very specific distinctions. But it all depends on how closely you are willing to hold to the words written, and to resist any desire to reinterpret them to make them adhere to your view.

I'm not saying you do, only that this is common. We are at that impass on the "seed of Israel". I ask, IF God were to want to tell us He would never cast out the descendants of His chosen nations Israel, the ONE nation with which we have any Biblical authority to claim He made a covenant with, as a nation, IF God were to want to say that, how would He do that? How would He express Himself?

I'm thinking, just like He did.

We are saved by grace through faith. All who are saved are saved through faith. Those who enter the kingdom, having survived the Great Tribulation, will do so based on their works. If you hold to the wording of what Jesus said, that is.

There are others, but if we don't read the Bible the same way, we'll not reach the same conclusions, will we? People ask why all the different denoms. That's a big part of it, I think.

Much love!