Postrib vs Dispy.

[Randy Kluth]

Actually, there are some very specific distinctions. But it all depends on how closely you are willing to hold to the words written, and to resist any desire to reinterpret them to make them adhere to your view.

I'm not saying you do, only that this is common. We are at that impass on the "seed of Israel". I ask, IF God were to want to tell us He would never cast out the descendants of His chosen nations Israel, the ONE nation with which we have any Biblical authority to claim He made a covenant with, as a nation, IF God were to want to say that, how would He do that? How would He express Himself?

I'm thinking, just like He did.

We are saved by grace through faith. All who are saved are saved through faith. Those who enter the kingdom, having survived the Great Tribulation, will do so based on their works. If you hold to the wording of what Jesus said, that is.

There are others, but if we don't read the Bible the same way, we'll not reach the same conclusions, will we? People ask why all the different denoms. That's a big part of it, I think.

Much love!

On what basis do you say that "those who enter the kingdom, having survived the Great Tribulation, will do so based on their works?" I hold to the wording of what Jesus said, and I don't see him saying this. I see no difference in standard for righteousness for Jew or for non-Jews, for those who had been under the Law and for those who are now free from the Law.

We are all saved by a standard of righteousness associated with faith. Those under the Law had trusted that God would be merciful by their compliance with the Law, believing that in offering animal sacrifices and in complying with the moral aspects of the Law, they would obtain God's forgiveness for sin, and be able to hope in final redemption through Messiah.

That's the same standard that we have today after Christ has provided our redemption. We trust that due to his atonement for our sins, and our choice to live in his morality that we can have his eternal life.

To me this voids Dispensationalism, which seeks to create separate histories for Israel and for the Church. Christ is the same basis of righteousness for the Jew as for the non-Jew. That's what I believe Paul taught.

 

[marks]

But until such time as this matter is resolved, they are "churches" and "Christians." And they live, sometimes, in "Christian nations." I think it serves us well to use these terms, without being idealistic and requiring perfection. I don't think that was the intention of the Bible.

I want my terminology to come from the Bible itself. Biblical thoughts thought in Biblical ways using Biblical terms, for a fully renewed mind.

I think using non-Biblical terminology suffers the weakness of lacking Scriptural definition. Scripture to interpret Scripture, otherwise, other ideas tend to get blended in. Other terminology already has it's own meaning.

"Christian nation", I've just seen the demonstration how it means different things to different one's of us. You say we go to the encyclopedia for a definition, but I've never read "Christian Nation" in Scripture, it just seems to be a label that some use for something that they are thinking of. No offence intended! I just object to it's non specificity, and lack of Scriptural use or reference.

Abraham being the father of many nations, so was Ishael. Were there others? I'd need to search, but I have chores waiting, so, need to run.



Much love!

 

[marks]

I hold to the wording of what Jesus said, and I don't see him saying this.

Some call this a parable, some say this is the same as the great white throne judgment, I say this is exactly what the prophetic narrative spells out.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Jesus returns to earth, rescues and regathers Isreal, then takes His throne, and gathers and judges the gentile nations according to how they cared or didn't care for the Jews.

That's if you actually do hold to what this says.

Much love!

 

[Keraz]

I have chores waiting, so, need to run.

So your chores took 7 minutes? Well done!

What the perennial issue is here is: Who is the true Israel?
Jacob was called Israel, because he overcame for God, the literal meaning of Israel.

Christians are the overcomers for God, by our acceptance of Jesus and by keeping His Commandments.
The clearest proof of the faithful Christians being His Overcomers and receiving His rewards, is in Revelation 2 & 3. In each of the seven Church's, we see how some are Overcomers. Not all, just like it is in todays Church's.

The belief of any kind of full national redemption, just cannot be correct, as God sees into the hearts of every individual and in every people group there are some from every persuasion.

Now I must chop some firewood, as its wintertime here. Might take longer that 7 minutes!

 

[marks]

So your chores took 7 minutes? Well done!

No . . . I'm a forum addict . . . the chores waited a little longer.

The belief of any kind of full national redemption, just cannot be correct,

"just cannot"? The thing is, I read about this all over the Bible, so, I'm thinking maybe it "just can be" correct.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Christians are the overcomers for God, by our acceptance of Jesus and by keeping His Commandments.
The clearest proof of the faithful Christians being His Overcomers and receiving His rewards, is in Revelation 2 & 3. In each of the seven Church's, we see how some are Overcomers. Not all, just like it is in todays Church's.

We are overcomers, that is, if we are. But we are not the seed of Israel. What would God have to say to convince us He meant Jacob's kids?

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

I want my terminology to come from the Bible itself. Biblical thoughts thought in Biblical ways using Biblical terms, for a fully renewed mind.

I think using non-Biblical terminology suffers the weakness of lacking Scriptural definition. Scripture to interpret Scripture, otherwise, other ideas tend to get blended in. Other terminology already has it's own meaning.

"Christian nation", I've just seen the demonstration how it means different things to different one's of us. You say we go to the encyclopedia for a definition, but I've never read "Christian Nation" in Scripture, it just seems to be a label that some use for something that they are thinking of. No offence intended! I just object to it's non specificity, and lack of Scriptural use or reference.

Abraham being the father of many nations, so was Ishael. Were there others? I'd need to search, but I have chores waiting, so, need to run.



Much love!

When I define "Christian nations" I believe I am using the Scriptural definition, which is also the encyclopedia definition. It is more spiritual to be and to act like a Christian, but this has nothing to do with defining "Christian" the way the Bible does.

I see the Bible as defining "Christian" in less than an ideal way, as one professing faith and yet in the process of determining whether that profession is permanent or not. The same with "church." The Bible uses "church" in the sense of those who have chosen to join the assembly of the saints by professing Christianity. But they are still in the process of determining whether this choice will be permanent or not.

I fully understand that Christian nations are going through the same process, having a majority population of Christians who are Christians in this process of determining whether they will stay or leave. It is a transitory state, to be in a Christian nation, to be in a church, and to be a Christian.

People are included who are just half way there. It may not be the spiritual thing as you look at a "Christian." But that's how people become Christians, by choosing to be one, and then determining that they will remain as such. Until such time as they choose to leave the faith, they are "Christians," and should be referred to as such.

1 John 2.19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

When these went out from the church, they determined no longer to be a "Christian," showing that they do not belong in the final roll call of the universal Church. But as long as they are still in the church, they should, I think, be called "Christians."

 

[Keraz]

No . . . I'm a forum addict . . . the chores waited a little longer.

Phew! Another one! What is needed is a 'Forum Addicts Anonymous'. Too bad; there is already an FAA.

We are overcomers, that is, if we are. But we are not the seed of Israel. What would God have to say to convince us He meant Jacob's kids?

He would tell us the truth thru His Apostles; Galatians 3:26-29 ....so if you belong to Christ, you are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the Promise.

"just cannot"? The thing is, I read about this all over the Bible, so, I'm thinking maybe it "just can be" correct.

As RK says above, a nation today, cannot become 100% true, faithful Christian.

But yes; there will come a time when those Christians who passed the fiery test, 1 Peter 4:12, will go to live in all of the holy Land. In the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26

 

[Truth7t7]

Notice that the promise was made both to Abraham and to Christ. So it involves both Abraham and Christ, but this does not mean that the coming of Christ completed what was promised. What was promised to both Abraham and Christ was a family of nations with the faith of Christ. That has been taking place over the last 2000 years, as nation after nation has embraced Christianity.

Granted, Christian nations fall, just as Israel fell. But that doesn't mean that these nations will fall forever. I believe that Christ will come, and destroy the powers that prevent these nations from succeeding in their faith. When Christ comes again, Antichrist will be defeated, and Satan will be jailed. Then Israel will be restored to faith in God, and adopt Christianity together with the many other nations who have done so.

Then the fallen Christian nations will be purged of their faithlessness, and be restored. That's why, I believe, Christians and saints in the present and former ages will be appointed as judges, to determine the level of compliance God requires in the age to come. Nations, at that time, will achieve the full level of fulfillment of the promise God made to both Abraham and Christ.

The Lord will judge by fire at his return

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation?

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ?

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Truth7t7]

Notice that the promise was made both to Abraham and to Christ. So it involves both Abraham and Christ, but this does not mean that the coming of Christ completed what was promised. What was promised to both Abraham and Christ was a family of nations with the faith of Christ. That has been taking place over the last 2000 years, as nation after nation has embraced Christianity.

Granted, Christian nations fall, just as Israel fell. But that doesn't mean that these nations will fall forever. I believe that Christ will come, and destroy the powers that prevent these nations from succeeding in their faith. When Christ comes again, Antichrist will be defeated, and Satan will be jailed. Then Israel will be restored to faith in God, and adopt Christianity together with the many other nations who have done so.

Then the fallen Christian nations will be purged of their faithlessness, and be restored. That's why, I believe, Christians and saints in the present and former ages will be appointed as judges, to determine the level of compliance God requires in the age to come. Nations, at that time, will achieve the full level of fulfillment of the promise God made to both Abraham and Christ.

Your claim is Incorrect, the promise was made to "Abraham" and the promise was fulfilled by Jesus Christ (The Promised Seed)

Galatians 3:16-29KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Truth7t7]

Those who enter the kingdom, having survived the Great Tribulation, will do so based on their works. If you hold to the wording of what Jesus said, that is.

There are others, but if we don't read the Bible the same way, we'll not reach the same conclusions, will we? People ask why all the different denoms. That's a big part of it, I think.

Much love!

Where is that found in the scripture, please provide scripture of this judgement based upon WORKS, and entrance into a kingdom?

 

[amigo de christo]

We are overcomers, that is, if we are. But we are not the seed of Israel. What would God have to say to convince us He meant Jacob's kids?

Much love!

The seed is Christ . The SEED is JESUS CHRIST . They are not all Israel who are of Israel .
Paul , james , peter , jude , they never taught the gentile or jew that works is gonna save one .
THEY all BELEIVED the coming of JESUS was nigh . ANd i never heard them once say
WELL somehow in the tribulation it will be their works that save them . We must unplug from mens doctrines
and start learning bibles for ourselves . Let all sit down and pull the plug and unplug from mens doctrines
and cry afresh and anew unto the LORD and read those bibles . Things will start clearing up if folks do this .

 

[Ronald Nolette]

lol! I just meant to point out that "Christian nations" is not an obscure claim--it is ubiquitous in Western literature. It is the *equivalent of* being a "flat-earther" to deny the *encyclopedia definition.*

And I am, in fact, using the encyclopedia definition. Your "Christian definition" is at odds with the encyclopedia's definition. That makes you a manipulator of terms.

But I do understand the point. I'm not insulting you in regard to your "Christian definition"--only in regard to your denial of the encyclopedia's definition. Now that you admit that, we can begin at square one.

Well teh encyclopedia may say something, but it is irrelavent to reality. And if you are a believer calling one a flat earther is totally out of character when they simply disagfree. But I agree the encyclopedias say certain nations were Christian nations.

But what an encyclopedia says is not the final arbiter of whether or not a nation is Christian or not. If it is a theocracy and adshers to the NT that is what it would take for a nation to be Christian no matter what Britannica or Funk&Wagnalls would say.

Now you're denying geographical realities, or you're denying that Godhad a role in determining boundaries for the nations, which is directly contrary to the Scriptures.

Psa 74.17 It was you who set all the boundaries of the earth...

Now you are falsely equating god establishing the boundaries of the gentile nations with them being recognized as Christian nations by god! You are comparing apples and oranges and producing watermelons.

I seriously doubt that. That has never been true of any nation. The thought that somehow Israel gets a special exemption from the plight of fallen human nature disturbs me and sounds very partial.

Well Sorry Gods Word disturbs you , but that is clearly and unambiguously spelled out in Scripture. right now we are living in the time of the setting aside of Israel as a nation for the calling out of the gentiles a people for His name, but as Paul said in romans 11, once the full number of gentiles come in- ALL Israel will get saved. They will know their homeland and live in it as promised by God.

This is more of Pretrib mythology. Israel has been marginalized for most of NT history. Up until recently Israel hasn't even been a country. But they are going to enter into the time of Antichrist's domination as a final test, which will, I believe, destroy Judaism forever, and along with it all those who stubbornly cling to it. A remnant of Jews will be left in Israel to reconstitute the nation along Christian lines. That's my take on it.

No it is Scripture! If you read your bible you would know.

"Clearly" spelled out? Where? Nothing is more *unclear* that what you're claiming to be true! Saved People are Christians, period. Just calling them persecuted "saints" doesn't make them non-Christians! When they follow Christ, they're Christians, period.

so Moses was a follower of christ? Noah was a Christian whewn He was alive? proof?

We are engaged, in covenant, to Christ, and the engagement will be consummated as an eternal marriage. This marriage merely symbolizes our glorification event, in which we become like Christ physically--immortal and sinless. Anybody who converts to Christ "in the Tribulation" will like any Christian be engaged to Christ and be a legitimate Christian!

Wrong again! The church is in heaven in REv. 19! The church is wed to jesus in rev. 19 and then jesus retrurns in REv. 19 and lots of people are on the earth who did not partake of the wedding! They are the trib saints who live and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. These folk are the sheep that Jesus gathers from all nations after He returns. they enter the millenial kingdom while the goats go to the place of torments awaiting the lake of fire. that is SCripture.

 

[Keraz]

so Moses was a follower of christ?

Yes. actually he was. 1 Corinthians 10:4..the Rock that accompanied the travels of the Israelites was Christ.

You are also wrong about the Church going to heaven. Rev 16 does not say where the Wedding supper will be.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Lord will judge by fire at his return

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation?

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ?

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

The problem with that is, God said the present earth will last forever. Any sense that it will be destroyed really has to do with its purge, with its reformation, and not with its annihilation.

Psa 78.69 He built his sanctuary like the heights, like the earth that he established forever.
Eccl 1.4 Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.

No, I believe the earth continues well past the return of Christ in fire. He will bring fire to purge the earth of those keeping it under a satanic orbit. But the people will live on for another thousand years. Rev 20 says so.

The mortal earth continues, even past the glorification of the saints, for two primary reasons. One, God said so in Rev 20. And two, God said certain things still have yet to be fulfilled that haven't yet been fulfilled in the present age, namely the promises God made to Abraham concerning the nations who will have Christian faith.

They have come into being in the present age, but they have fallen. They need to be restored and set free from the bondage of satanic interference.

 

[Truth7t7]

The problem with that is, God said the present earth will last forever. Any sense that it will be destroyed really has to do with its purge, with its reformation, and not with its annihilation.

Psa 78.69 He built his sanctuary like the heights, like the earth that he established forever.
Eccl 1.4 Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.

No, I believe the earth continues well past the return of Christ in fire. He will bring fire to purge the earth of those keeping it under a satanic orbit. But the people will live on for another thousand years. Rev 20 says so.

The mortal earth continues, even past the glorification of the saints, for two primary reasons. One, God said so in Rev 20. And two, God said certain things still have yet to be fulfilled that haven't yet been fulfilled in the present age, namely the promises God made to Abraham concerning the nations who will have Christian faith.

They have come into being in the present age, but they have fallen. They need to be restored and set free from the bondage of satanic interference.

Isaiah 24:19-20KJV
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Isaiah 24:19-20KJV
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Yes, the present state of the earth and the heaven will completely pass away, but the earth will continue to exist in a new form. It's like taking an orange and peeling it. The former unpeeled orange has completely passed away once it is peeled. But the orange continues to exist.

You cannot say that the earth is annihilated, because as I said, the "earth is forever." And I gave you two verses to substantiate that. You either accept them or you don't.

Psa 78.69 He built his sanctuary like the heights, like the earth that he established forever.
Eccl 1.4 Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.

You also gave verses, but they can be reconciled with the verses I gave. It is the *present form* of the earth that passes away--not its existence.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, the present state of the earth and the heaven will completely pass away, but the earth will continue to exist in a new form. It's like taking an orange and peeling it. The former unpeeled orange has completely passed away once it is peeled. But the orange continues to exist.

You cannot say that the earth is annihilated, because as I said, the "earth is forever." And I gave you two verses to substantiate that. You either accept them or you don't.

Psa 78.69 He built his sanctuary like the heights, like the earth that he established forever.
Eccl 1.4 Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.

You also gave verses, but they can be reconciled with the verses I gave. It is the *present form* of the earth that passes away--not its existence.

More Like This Existing Earth Is "Dissolved" By The Lords Fire In Judgement, And A New Heaven And Earth Are "Created"

(Behold, I Make All Things New)
(Behold, I Make All Things New)
(Behold, I Make All Things New)

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Isaiah 24:19-20KJV
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

 

[marks]

We must unplug from mens doctrines
and start learning bibles for ourselves .

Yes indeed! I wish this were more common, not only to learn what it says, but to believe and accept what it says.

My question is . . . Does ANY of this mean what it says?

Ezekiel 37:21-28 KJV
21) And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22) And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23) Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24) And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25) And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26) Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27) My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28) And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Jeremiah 31:31-40 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
38) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39) And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40) And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

Like I just said on another thread . . . I could go on and on with this, lengthy and detailed and specific prophecies of the restoration of Israel.

I actually first came to believe God because of the prophecies. All fulfilled. At least, those whose time had come. And very literally fulfilled.

I could go on and on with prophecies which assure Israel's restoration but why?

Much love!

 

[marks]

He would tell us the truth thru His Apostles; Galatians 3:26-29 ....so if you belong to Christ, you are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the Promise.

I was more speaking of the "seed of Israel".

I'm curious, IF God WERE to want to mention the physical descendants of Jacob, I'm wondering . . . how do you suppose He would say it?

Much love!