Pre-destination / Election

[Benoni]

A few facts:1) The word hell is not in the Greek or Hebrew language but comes from an Angle Saxon word meaning to bury. Most new translation of the Bible do not even include the word hell in there translation. The first time the word hell which is a bad translation is in the Bible is in Duet. 32:22; if it was so important why so late in the Bible? 2) There are four words the misinterpret as hell. A) Hades: NT:86haides (hah'-dace); from NT:1 (as negative particle) and NT:1492; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed soulsnotice King James misinterpretation) B) Sheol: OT:7585 she'owl (sheh-ole'); or sheol (sheh-ole'); from OT:7592; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates: KJV - grave, hell, pit. (notice King James misinterpretation) C) Tar-ta-rus (tart rs) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1 an infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils not people. (mentioned only once in the Bible) D) Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the gospel. This is the word the fundamental preachers love to use to burn up the sinner. They are the first to yell foul if something does not fit in context; BUT: Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; a place of constant burning of refuge. Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified bf God’s holy judgment. This word is used not for sinner, murders or liars; it is used with the word “BROTHER”. Matthew 5:22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The word hell is in the bible i read..matt 23: 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Now unless you show me a verse of scripture that tells me not to read the english bible then you have no proof that the engish bible is wrong.. If God didnt want an english translation of the scripture, then it would be one for His english speaking children..

 

[Benoni]

I seeSo you are one of those people who cannot dig beyond the letter that killeth; you are just going to ignore facts and stick to the letter that killeth. Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.Please explain Prov 25:2?

of hell? [/B] Now unless you show me a verse of scripture that tells me not to read the english bible then you have no proof that the engish bible is wrong.. If God didnt want an english translation of the scripture, then it would be one for His english speaking children..

 

[savedbygrace57]

I see So you are one of those people who cannot dig beyond the letter that killeth; you are just going to ignore facts and stick to the letter that killeth. Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. Please explain Prov 25:2?

I have the Holy Ghost who leads me into all truth of scripture..i dont need you for that..

 

[Benoni]

I have the Holy Ghost who leads me into all truth of scripture..i dont need you for that..

I am sure the Pope would say the same thing. Here we are discussing God's Word openly and you cannot even face a verse in God's Word presented to you. I too have the Holy Spirit but I do not limit God to some man made creed. It is God's glory not my opinion I addressing. Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.If the Holy Spirit is leading you then address "God's Word" (Prov 25:2 )thought the Holy Spirit with in you; don't avoid it because it does not fit you're warn out wine skin.This verse is saying something.This verse is scriptural; I did not make it up?

 

[savedbygrace57]

It is God's glory not my opinion I addressing.

No its not, its your human without God opinion..

 

[Benoni]

Spin?

 

[mjrhealth]

There is a lot of things that God woyud have, not have us do, but we just tend to run off and do our own thing. as for the bible, the disciples taught for years without it, why is it that we seem to need it so badly, Jesus, said that He would send the comforter, the Holy spirit so that He could lead us into all the truth, never did He mention deciphering the bible or any book for that matter. that is pure assumption on our part, and the church and the devil love it because look at all the bickering and division it causes. And God is not divided or is He.In His love

 

[savedbygrace57]

There is a lot of things that God woyud have, not have us do, but we just tend to run off and do our own thing

Thats impossible..everything we do has been ordered by God..jer 10: 23O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. prov 16 9A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps

 

[logabe]

Most people object to the doctrine of predestination because it is linked to the idea that God has predestinated most of humanity to burn in hell forever. They object to the injustice attributed to God. Such people are to be commended for not wanting to believe in such an unjust God. However, the God of the Bible has merely predestinated certain ones to be saved FIRST. The others are predestinated to be saved LATER. Meanwhile, there is much "futility" in creation. God subjected creation to futility by His own will. It was a judgment of God upon all creation because of Adam's sin. Yet He did so with a good purpose in mind, because God's judgments are remedial and corrective. Through discipline, God will bring all things to Himself. That which we call evil, God has the power to turn into good. (Rom. 8:20-21) Logabe

 

[savedbygrace57]

Most people object to the doctrine of predestination because it is linked to the idea that God has predestinated most of humanity to burn in hell forever. They object to the injustice attributed to God. Such people are to be commended for not wanting to believe in such an unjust God. However, the God of the Bible has merely predestinated certain ones to be saved FIRST. The others are predestinated to be saved LATER.

This is false..God predestined some to mercy and salvation, the seed of the Women and God predestined some to the damanation of hell, the seed of the serpent..

 

[mjrhealth]

Thats impossible..everything we do has been ordered by God..jer 10: 23O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. prov 16 9A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps

You have missed the one most important thing, free will. God can only direct your steps if you are willing to follow, It is Gods will that all men be saved, but many men would choose to go to hell, simply by rejecting Jesus. As is written , many are called but few will be choosen, or Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. God doesnt direct mens steps away from life, men choose not to follow,they take the easy road to destruction, because it is easier.In His Love

 

[savedbygrace57]

You have missed the one most important thing, free will.

Man doesnt have a freewill, its as though he is a robot, he can only do or not do what God has decreed, from birth to the grave..

 

[Benoni]

Man does have a freewill to sin. He does not have a freewill towards salvation. If Adam did not fall then man would be a robot.Man is a slave to sin, man is dead in trespasses and it is his nature to totally reject all things of God; man has no choice or freewill to choose his own salvation; this is a religious myth and not a scriptural act; if anything the Bible teaches it is God who draws; it is Jesus that saves not mans carnal mind believing on by its own will. The word freewill or choice are not found anywhere in the NT when it comes to someone freely choosing his own salvation. The word freewill is not even found in the Bible except for the Freewill Offering in the OT; which has nothing to do with salvation even as an example. God saves us by His grace, the and only then can carnal man have faith to believe in God and be saved. I In John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) and I will add forces him: and I will raise him up at the last day. and John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me as you so wisely posted. The word draw is the Greek word from Strong’s 1670: helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively): There are eight examples in the NT that shows this word draw means force; Peter drew his sword is one example; the disciples drew their net; the net did not choose or have a freewill neither did the sword. notice the content and context of Ephesians 2: 1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Eph. 6:17). Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of God’s word is "QUICK ."Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING! "For the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power — making it active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified).2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boastNotice the order, God must quicken us be we are dead in sins; then He saves us by grace; then and only then do we have faith and I will add once this has happen we had no choice or freewill.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Man does have a freewill to sin

No He doesnt..man cannot committ any sin that God doesnt ordain for him to committ..gen 20: 6And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

 

[Benoni]

Yes God controls all things but sinful man nature is to sin; that is what happened when all of mankind was cursed. Our beastly, sinful, dead spiritual nature must sin; that nature was given to us by God. I would draw your attention to the fact that the vast majority of the events in the book take place in one of three dimensions: HEAVEN, EARTH, and SEA. These are, of course, symbolical and prophetical terms! They represent states of being, life-styles, levels of consciousness, spheres of existence, and dimensions of life within each of us. The lowest of these three realms is the sea. Throughout the book of Revelation a number of things transpire in the sea. A few of them are as follows. “And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and a third part of the sea became blood.” “I stood upon the sand of the sea, and I saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns.” “And the sea gave up the dead that were in it.” “Woe to the inhabiters of the sea, for the devil is come down unto you.” “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth…and there was no more sea.” Throughout the scriptures the sea is a type of the inner storms and turbulent nature of the Adamic man. The prophet Isaiah penned these inspired words: “The wicked are like the troubled sea, which cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked” (Isa. 57:20-21). Jude also described wicked men when he said, “These are raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame” (Jude 13). The beloved John, on the isle of Patmos, had a vision of a great whore sitting on many waters. The angel revealed the meaning of the many waters, saying, “the waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues” (Rev. 17:15). The natural sea is a great deep, an abyss (Gen. 1:2; 7:11; 8:2; Deut. 8:7; 33:13). The Psalmist wrote of this abyss of the wickedness of man, “They search out iniquities; they accomplish a diligent search: both the inward thought of every one of them, and the heart is D-E-E-P (an abyss)” (Ps. 64:6). To the enlightened mind of David the depth of iniquity of which the human heart is capable is so great that it is beyond the ability of man to comprehend. The heart of man is an unfathomable depth, or, as Jeremiah observed, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jer. 17:9). While John the Revelator saw a beast (bestial nature) rising out of the sea (abyss, depth) of humanity, Jesus expressed the same truth thus: “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed all these evil things!” No one can dispute the fact that it is this restless, turbulent, raging, evil heart of the fleshly man that inspires every evil and devilish perversion, and has filled the world with ever increasing confusion, faithlessness, immorality, falsehood, fraud, hatred, violence, greed, cruelty, strife, wars, bloodshed, and oppression. There are wars and rumors of wars and terrorism that strike fear into the hearts of men. Among the ruthless surging tide of unbridled crime, drugs, rebellion, illicit sex, disease, suffering, abuse, poverty, - 2 - sorrow, and injustice, we hear the groans of the dying. The whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain! Men's hearts are failing them for fear in looking after those things which are coming upon the earth. It is more than a raging sea of evil — it is a virtual tsunami of self-destruction! As we look at the sad earth today, it is plain for every eye to see that, flowing from the corrupt minds of the corrupt rulers of every corrupt government on earth, taught in the schools, practiced in business and in the courts, and propagated by the media and Hollywood, we find the evil fruit of sin and death manifesting itself. Everywhere on the planet mankind is being overwhelmed by its evil until the earth is filled with violence and the thoughts and imaginations of men's hearts are only evil continually.

; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me[/B]: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Yes God controls all things but sinful man nature is to sin

I said man is not free to sin..God ordains what sin man committs..

 

[logabe]

Suppose we were to hold a knife at someone's throat and give him the choice of converting to Christianity or being executed. One might say that the man had a free choice of converting or dying. Others might dispute his freedom of choice. There are laws that protect men from such coercion, releasing them from any obligations they might make under such threat of death or torture. To use a biblical answer, look at the story of Israel in the wilderness under Moses. God told Israel to go into Canaan and drive out the Canaanites, but they refused (by their own wills). We read of the ten spies' report in Numbers 13:31, 31 But the men who had gone up with him said, "We are not able to go up against the people, for they are too strong for us." The sovereign God of Israel told them to enter the Promised Land, but man's rebellious will used its authority by refusing to be obedient. This would certainly seem to indicate that the people had “free will” in spite of any threatened consequences for disobedience that Moses might have expressed. And so God judged them by making them remain in the wilderness for a total of forty years, instead of entering the land after just a year and a half. But at the end of forty years, as Israel was preparing to enter Canaan, Moses made an astounding statement in a speech to Israel that is recorded in Deut. 29:4, 4 "Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear. It is self-evident that the people did not have eyes to see or ears to hear. Why? Moses gives credit to the Lord for not giving them eyes to see or ears to hear. In other words, God had done something to prevent the will of the people from choosing what was right. So the fact that those men had wills did not mean that their wills were totally free to choose. Is this why the people were unable to enter Canaan 38 years earlier? Is this why the ten spies gave the evil report—even though they all thought that they were choosing to rebel by the power of their own “free will”? There is no question that without God's direct intervention in human affairs, man cannot know Him. Such wisdom only comes from God (James 1:5). Men can read the Bible and even memorize it, but he cannot really understand the mind of God without some direct action of the Holy Spirit to enlighten him. Logabe

 

[Deadwheat1224]

"I said man is not free to sin..God ordains what sin man committs.."It doesn't make sense that God ordains us to sin... that he leads us to it. God is perfectly good, the essence of Goodness, whose sole desire is for us to be united to him.... it is against his nature to order us to do evil, because evil is not in his nature, and it would go against his desire to be united with us...It's like God making a "square-circle". Not possible because it's a contradiction of terms.

 

[Brother Mike]

Deadwheat1224

It doesn't make sense that God ordains us to sin... that he leads us to it. God is perfectly good, the essence of Goodness, whose sole desire is for us to be united to him.... it is against his nature to order us to do evil, because evil is not in his nature, and it would go against his desire to be united with us...

Many false doctrines are created because people do not know God, or his very character and nature. savedbygrace57 believes this thing we call life is a movie. Everyone must follow the exact script they are given from start to end. If at some point a sin is not in the script you can not commit that sin. The movie just plays all the way up to who makes it and who does not.Jesus Is Lord