I hope this is not a subject that has been banded from this forum.I am not a student of theology, or a preacher. But I personally think that when we think about scriptures concerning pre-destination / election we are looking at the subject too close to the "individual" person. I feel that I must step back and look at it from the perspective that God predestinated / elected "groups" that people fall into, namely those that have, or will, except Jesus (the "predestinated / elected" group) and those that have not, or will not, except Him.I don't know of a good analogy but I will try this one. In our society we predestinate that all who break the laws of society should go to jail. But we do not choose who will break the law. It is the individuals choice.Now let us say that we can time travel. If we could go ahead, in time, we would know which ones choose to break the laws and which ones were in jail. God would know this since He can see the end from the beginning.Perhaps this is a simplistic way to look at it but is helpful to me so that I don't have to say that God pointed at an individual person and choose him for destruction by not giving that person an equal chance. Although I know that He can do as He wishes.There are many that interpret scriptures about the "predestinated / elected" to mean that God choose those "individuals" that will be saved and those "individuals" that will not be saved. But I do not see this in the scriptures they are looking at. I see that God has elected that those (a group) that except His Son will be saved and those (a group) that refuse Him will not. To me, if a man has no choice then why is preaching of the gospel required? Why did Jesus say "in Revelations "whosoever will let him come?" Does this statement mean what it says "whosoever will let him come" or it is a lie? I believe it to be the absolute truth.Perhaps this is not a good analogy either but let us say that I plan and built a stadium that has two gates, one that is closest to the north side of the field and one that is south of the field. It is "predestinated / elected" that those who enter the north gate will sit on the north side of the field and those entering the south gate will sit on the south side of the field. It is the people that make a choice as to which side to enter. Like I said this analogy leaves a lot to be desired but it should get the point across that I am trying to make. Is this too simplistic for some? Then perhaps Paul was in error when he said:1 Cor 1:26-29 . . (NKJ)26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.To further try and explain let us take this example. A man has two sons. He tells the two sons that whoever cuts the grass will be paid xxx dollars. The father has predestinated/elected that whoever cuts the grass will receive xxx dollars but he has not chosen which son (individual) to cut the grass. In this same way God has predestined/elected that all who receive His Son will be saved.Everyone is free to believe what they wish. I have stated what I believe.In Christian love, RichardRom 8:26-30 NKJV26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Pre-destination / Election
- Thread starter RichardBurger
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namely those that have, or will, except Jesus (the "predestinated / elected" group) and those that have not, or will not, except Him.(quote) Well first off I do believe there is a predestined Elect but they are not as you have described above just believers in general... Though I do think anyone can become an overcomerThe Elect are those whom God foreknew and has forchosen, and we do not know who they are and wont till the End ... But for the most part they have a Job or duty to do that God will use them for ... Paul was good example of an Elect :He was just going about his buisness of persecuting Christians...When God called on him God had predestined him for a mission ...Paul had no idea he was predestined by God and neither do we Not just anyone/and everyone is of the Elect but anyone of us could be ...
tomwebster
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- Dec 11, 2006
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Richard, Pre-destination / election has more to do with this battle:Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
It does not seem that election must refer to either individuals or groups only.... that is, it is not necessarily an either/or, it is a both/and... the scriptures speak of election referring to both the nation of Israel and to individuals. But even if we look at God electing groups (called by many "corporate election") we have to remember that God's knowledge is perfect, He is omniscient.... and so when a group is said to be elected, the group is comprised on individuals, its not as if an empty set such as "Israel" or "the church" exists.... rather these are groups made up of individuals, and God knows all those who are his..... He knows every single individual who will one day be saved before they are ever born. And, God DOES elect individuals, Galatians 1:15-16 (NASB) 15 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,..." God delineates/elects/predestines individuals like Pharaoh and Moses, and Jacob and Esau... Romans 9:10-18 (ESV) 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."blessings,ken
Albert Finch
Well-Known Member
Peter tells us that the delay in Christ's return is due to the fact that God doen't want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9) God wants everone he's created to turn to Him. If everything about the future was settled before God ever created the world, however, God would of course have known exactly who would and would not respond to Him. This not only creates difficulties understand the meaning of God patiently delaying His return as he holds out hope for others to repent, it also raises the even more poignant question as to why God would create people He is certain will go to hell in the first place. It is not difficult to underestand why God sorrowfully allows people to choose evil and hell once he creates then. To take back freedom once it is given on the grounds that it is being used wrongly would mean that freedom was never given in the first place. This risk is inherent in creating free beings. But it is very difficult to understand why God gives freedom to beings He is certain are going to misuse it to the point of damning themselves to eternal hell. It is better to never have been born that to suffer hell, as Jesus says (Matt. 26:24), and if God always does the best thing, why would He not simply refrain from creating these condemned people? Why indeed would God strive with these people, trying to get them to believe. He is grieved when they resist Him (Isa. 63:10; Eph. 4:30; Acts 7:51; Heb, 3:8,15:4,7). Why would God expend this energy and experience this frustration if it was from all eternity a foregone conclusion that these fated people would not yield to his loving influence? Doesn't the fact that God sincerely tries to get these people to believe imply that it was not certain to God that they would not believe when he created them? Albert Finchhttp://www.thekeys2kingdom.com
Well the question will never be settled among men 
...but I dont much care what men have to say The question is answered by God and there is no confusion so we should take his word and not worry to much what men argue about . God bless
...but I dont much care what men have to say The question is answered by God and there is no confusion so we should take his word and not worry to much what men argue about . God bless
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
There was a certain billy beside a certain campfire. The billy was fill of water which was cold. The fire was burning well and was hot. A camper decided to position the billy of cold water over the hot fire, knowing that this would predestine the water to boil, which it did.John 3:14-21 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:(15) That whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.(16) For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.(18) He that believes on Him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.(19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.(20) For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.(21) But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Whosoever believes...believes God exists, and that His Word is true...has a glorious destiny prepared for them amongst all those who share this wonderful position of belief.
Predestination and election is a group of Individuals, the church or the body of christ, comprised of individuals..The church, this group is elected to salvation.. Also there is a group of individuals who are elected and predestined to hell for the punishment of their sins.
And the rains came and the winds blew, and the fire went out, and so the Billy did not boil, and so he had no tea that night. And so it is that it is written, that many are called and few are chosen, and as with the parable of the seeds, Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; Mat 13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Mat 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: Mat 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. Mat 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: Mat 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some a hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.Being called is one thing , surviving the storm that comes with it is another.Was it not Jesus that said, i choose twelve of you and one is the devil ??Jesus the only wayIn His Love
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
You see God is not calling all people now only His firstfruits. If you are nt called, drawn or quicken you have no choice to come; that is until he calls you.
Benoni;71614]You see God is not calling all people now only His firstfruits. If you are nt called said:
albert says:
Thats all the elect, not all individuals, for God has appointed some to wrath and damnation for their sins, the seed of the devil..
Got to look closer at the word perish sometimes it was added by the translators. The word perish in Psalm 146:3 was also used in John 3:15 "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be.Look up the word perish in John 3:15 it was added by the translator Strong’s9999 inserted word (x);This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Hebrew/Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.John 3:15 should not perish, but (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.) In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been Altered or corrupted, they are left out from the New Version.Even in Psalm 146:3 the word perish means OT:6 'abad (aw-bad');a primitive root; properly, to wander away, i.e. lose oneself; by implication to perish (causative, destroy):
You make a big statement here that is hogwash; "predestined to hell". You are the one confused.You know nothing about hell with such a statement.Chapter and verse.
savedbygrace57;71650 said:
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