The point remains, this group too large to number MUST BE some group. We know they are a group that are born again, by their definition. We know they came out of a period of time called "great tribulation."
Most Christians view the tribulation as a time period. It's actually more accurate to call it the condition of a time period. The word means...
1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure
2) metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits
The word is used like this........the number is amount of times translated as such in the bible.
AV — tribulation 21, affliction 17, trouble 3, anguish 1, persecution 1, burdened 1, to be afflicted + 1519 1
There is no end-time great tribulation period mentioned in Rev. 7:14. It's more accurate to say that it's a condition those around the throne went through to get there. The elders around the throne are very likely the Old Testament patriarchs.
This is what I think about Rev 14. John is translated to heaven. The scene for John fluctuates between heaven......
where he's at at the moment.....and earth......
the things which are to come.
The twelve thousand of each tribe he sees in heaven
are already there in his presence. This heavenly event of the throne and twelve tribes is what John observed about the throne
"while he was there." This a a picture of the throne in AD 70 (or whatever) at John's present time.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
These people around the throne (24 elders and those with white robes) were resurrected at the same time Christ was resurrected! It's easy to fabricate anything you want to in Revelation. But a careful word study of the key words in Rev. 14 shows John's observance of the throne in heaven to be in the present, yet what he sees happening on earth is what is future.
There is not one hint that they were martyred, so why assume they are? I know (perhaps you don't) that John has not yet even started the 70th week. So I know this would fit "pretrib."
Again your assumption is that the throne that John observes in Rev. 7 or the martyrs beneath the altar in Rev. 6 are saint's resurrected
before Jacob's trouble. If these people went through great tribulation and the same word is also translated trouble, persecution, anguish, affliction, burden and oppression, I would speculate that many of them were martyrs.
From 1 Thes. 4:17 and John 14, we know that soon Jesus will come to the air and the clouds, and rapture (and resurrect) His bride, and take her to heaven. I will agree, it is an assumption to anyone to identify this group as the bride. However, I believe it is a good assumption. The pretrib group in general mistakenly chose Rev. 4:1 as the rapture. When I see Paul telling us the rapture will be the trigger for the signs for Day of the Lord, and John showing us the signs at the 6th seal, then I know the church was caught up just before the 6th seal events. Is it then a big assumption to see this large group seen in heaven shortly after, as the bride? I don't think so.
It's amazing how you arrive at you conclusions by your many preconceived inaccuracies.
Jesus raptures (Harvest) His own from the clouds here....
Revelation 14:12-20
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
APOSTASY!!!
Apostasia means to forsake something and comes from the word divorce. It is a political or religious revolt and rebellion that results in a defection, abandonment or desertion of your PREVIOUS affiliation.
You can't abandon, desert or divorce something and still be a part of it. Apostasy is not a defection from truth.
Besides that. There is no indication in the passage that it has anything at all to do with the Church.