Predestination or "Free Will?"

[Angelina]

Sounds like something I could look into. Thanks Wormwood. ^_^

 

[Axehead]

I don't like the definition of "free will". I prefer "freedom of choice".

Because if you think about it, only God has perfect free will. If you are put in prison can you will yourself to be out of it right now? No, you cannot.

But God can. That is free will. His will cannot be stopped.

Adam and Eve had freedom of choice, God has free will.

Unfortunately, the term "Free Will" has come to mean "Freedom of Choice" and not the definition I just gave for what Free Will really looks like.

Free Will - Only God possesses true free will. Everything else is "Freedom of Choice".

Freedom of Choice - God has given this to capability to man.

 

[HiddenManna]

HiddenManna,

I am not combining Calvinism and Arminianism. I would consider myself Arminian. I believe you are thinking of Pelagianism. Pelagianism would argue that man is not totally depraved and is born with a clean slate. This is not classical Arminianism. If you are really interested in understanding the views of Arminians, I would suggest you do some research as a short post here hardly does justice to the issue. However, people like John Wesley taught preventing grace (which "preventing" in his day meant "to go before.") Prevenient grace is God's grace which enables a person to hear and have the capacity to respond to the Gospel. However, Arminians do not believe (as Calvinists do) that God's grace is irresistible. God has to empower someone to respond to the Gospel, but that person has the ability to refuse that grace or cooperate with that grace.

As far as your quotes in John go, I don't know how they prove Calvinism. Arminians do not believe that they enact their own salvation or that the saved are not born of God. God works in us, therefore we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. If all choices are controlled by God and salvation is given to some and destruction is given to others by God's own arbitrary will, then this is not faith. Faith is human response to God's word and work, it is not God imposing a work on a person that they are unable to resist. Calvinism teaches double predestination. This means God chooses people for both salvation and destruction from before the creation of the world. This is not the image of God in Scripture and does not mesh with plain Scriptures that display God as wanting all to be save and grieving disobedience and hard-heartedness. Why would he grieve if it is he who is preventing their hearts from softening by his irresistible grace?

Well, I am not here to "prove Calvinism" I do believe that his understanding of the will of man and its complete rejection of God, is shown in the scriptures. I also reject "free will" as some would describe it. For the will of the flesh is not free at all, yet is in bondage to sin and all religious efforts of the flesh are only the false self-righteousness of the pharisee. Only the born-again spirit can work righteousness, and all "free-will" must be put to death at the Cross of Christ.

My use of the scripture proves this very point; Not by mans will, but by Gods will.

 

[Levi]

I don't like the definition of "free will". I prefer "freedom of choice".

Because if you think about it, only God has perfect free will. If you are put in prison can you will yourself to be out of it right now? No, you cannot.

But God can. That is free will. His will cannot be stopped.

Adam and Eve had freedom of choice, God has free will.

Unfortunately, the term "Free Will" has come to mean "Freedom of Choice" and not the definition I just gave for what Free Will really looks like.

Free Will - Only God possesses true free will. Everything else is "Freedom of Choice".

Freedom of Choice - God has given this to capability to man.

Hi Axehead,
I have thought along these lines, too, that the only will is God's.

If we all had free will, it would be dangerous, a person with their own free will could cause alot of damage.

 

[Wormwood]

HiddenManna,

For the will of the flesh is not free at all, yet is in bondage to sin and all religious efforts of the flesh are only the false self-righteousness of the Pharisee

This is not a case for Calvinism. I agree that people are born depraved and in bondage to sin. It is only by grace that a person has the choice to respond to God's goodness, but this grace is not "irresistible." I do not believe in double predestination where God arbitrarily chooses people to be saved and condemned.

Pointing to verses about mans total depravity affirms what I believe. If you want me to believe in the Calvinist teaching, you have to show me some Scriptures that prove concepts like irresistible grace, limited atonement and so forth.

Free will is not the ability to do anything. America is a "free" country but that does not mean there are no laws or limitations. Free will indicates the ability to have relative independence and the ability to initiate events. It is the power of contrary choice. Moreover, by this definition of freedom as the ability to do anything or everything...is God really free? After all, "it is impossible for God to lie." In any event, we all understand that free will is limited by our time, culture, language, opportunities, and so forth. But we all have the ability to initiate events, and exhibit independence in our actions. This is what "free will" means in my mind. People who use the term "free will" actually mean non-Calvinist. It is a view contrary to one where God determines and controls everything in the world.

 

[HiddenManna]

HiddenManna,

This is not a case for Calvinism. I agree that people are born depraved and in bondage to sin. It is only by grace that a person has the choice to respond to God's goodness, but this grace is not "irresistible." I do not believe in double predestination where God arbitrarily chooses people to be saved and condemned.

Pointing to verses about mans total depravity affirms what I believe. If you want me to believe in the Calvinist teaching, you have to show me some Scriptures that prove concepts like irresistible grace, limited atonement and so forth.

Free will is not the ability to do anything. America is a "free" country but that does not mean there are no laws or limitations. Free will indicates the ability to have relative independence and the ability to initiate events. It is the power of contrary choice. Moreover, by this definition of freedom as the ability to do anything or everything...is God really free? After all, "it is impossible for God to lie." In any event, we all understand that free will is limited by our time, culture, language, opportunities, and so forth. But we all have the ability to initiate events, and exhibit independence in our actions. This is what "free will" means in my mind. People who use the term "free will" actually mean non-Calvinist. It is a view contrary to one where God determines and controls everything in the world.

Well I am in no way trying to win anyone to Calvinism, but what I have done in my walk and in my understanding of the truth of the gospel, taken what I see that scriptures show from his doctrines. I call myself a "charismatic Calvinist" in part because the charismatic groups that God delivered me from, are in large part legalistic in their doctrines. I also understand that the term "free-will" could mean different things to some, but if one takes it to its end, it would suppose that man has the ability to know righteousness and to choose righteousness by the flesh.

 

[Axehead]

Hi Axehead,
I have thought along these lines, too, that the only will is God's.

If we all had free will, it would be dangerous, a person with their own free will could cause alot of damage.

Exactly, Levi. You've got it!

If Satan or man had free will, we would be in trouble.

 

[Wormwood]

Exactly, Levi. You've got it!

If Satan or man had free will, we would be in trouble.

Not if we can trust the sovereignty of God. I find God's sovereignty to be even more magnificent in light of human free will as opposed to his controlling every action.

 

[Axehead]

Not if we can trust the sovereignty of God. I find God's sovereignty to be even more magnificent in light of human free will as opposed to his controlling every action.

When you are in prison, you can use your freedom of choice and choose to praise and worship and love God.

No man has free will, only God does.

 

[HiddenManna]

When you are in prison, you can use your freedom of choice and choose to praise and worship and love God.

No man has free will, only God does.

If it be Gods Will, as we see in that Paul did not live by his own "free-will" but according to the Will of God, he suffered many things and was above all others in that he died daily to "free-will"

 

[Wormwood]

Sheesh. Free will does not mean rejection of God's will. It means being able to freely choose either to embrace God's will or reject it. It is the power of contrary choice. If Calvinism is correct, Paul had no choice but to live according to God's will...and even those who are unfaithful and disobedient are only doing God's will. There is no will but God's will in the Calvinist viewpoint.

However, Jesus tells us to pray, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done." Why would we pray that if everything that happens is already God's will? Seems a bit redundant to me.

 

[Levi]

When you are in prison, you can use your freedom of choice and choose to praise and worship and love God.

No man has free will, only God does.

Yes, this is right.

After God draws us, we have the freedom of choice to either accept or reject Christ.

God does not force Himself onto us.

 

[HiddenManna]

Sheesh. Free will does not mean rejection of God's will. It means being able to freely choose either to embrace God's will or reject it. It is the power of contrary choice. If Calvinism is correct, Paul had no choice but to live according to God's will...and even those who are unfaithful and disobedient are only doing God's will. There is no will but God's will in the Calvinist viewpoint.

However, Jesus tells us to pray, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done." Why would we pray that if everything that happens is already God's will? Seems a bit redundant to me.

Well its not "mans" free will is it? Its Gods Will that we submit unto. There is no "free will" in true Christian living, for one must die to the will of self and walk in the Will of Gods Spirit.

Yes, this is right.

After God draws us, we have the freedom of choice to either accept or reject Christ.

God does not force Himself onto us.

We have the choice to die to self and self will, not that we can walk with God according to our own will, but that we submit to His Will.

Joh 1:12

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


If some of you think you have chosen God by your own will? You are missing what happened when He saved you.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Well its not "mans" free will is it? Its Gods Will that we submit unto. There is no "free will" in true Christian living, for one must die to the will of self and walk in the Will of Gods Spirit.

We have the choice to die to self and self will, not that we can walk with God according to our own will, but that we submit to His Will.

Joh 1:12

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


If some of you think you have chosen God by your own will? You are missing what happened when He saved you.

It seems to me Armenians don't understand the biblical concept of 'free will' as they keep defining it by choice and yeah by their own ignorant and subjective experience. In reality one is not free if he is morally incapable of making the correct choice by divine standards and no-one has been able to do that without assistance from the LORD almighty both pre and post conversion.

The armenians don't believe in total depravity as they still hold onto at least in part, some good resides in them or else who would choose Jesus as Lord and savior. Yet the scriptures indicate our tenor of life before Christ was in darkness and the bend of our life was to self and self alone.

I'll stop there for now.

 

[Levi]

Well its not "mans" free will is it? Its Gods Will that we submit unto. There is no "free will" in true Christian living, for one must die to the will of self and walk in the Will of Gods Spirit.

We have the choice to die to self and self will, not that we can walk with God according to our own will, but that we submit to His Will.

Joh 1:12

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


If some of you think you have chosen God by your own will? You are missing what happened when He saved you.

God is the One who draws us,

John 6:44 No man can come to me unless the Father who has sent me draws them

and

1 Cor 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness.

However, we are called into the race first, but not all are chosen.

Matthew 22:14 Many are called, but few are chosen

The above verse from Matthew is coming after Jesus gave the parable comparing the Kingdom of Heaven to a wedding banquet, on their own accord, they turned the Kingdom of God away to do their own thing. Even IF we are called, it does not mean we will be chosen.

As Paul spoke of the race we now enter after being called,

Hebrews 12:1 "...let us run the race with perseverance the race marked out for us" - some people will not finish! Again in 1 Cor 9:24 Paul implores us to run the race as to win the prize!

Paul is urging us to continue, not quit, persevere!

Galatians 4:19 My dear children for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you! - The Prize!!

Ephesians 4:13 until we all reach the unity in faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

We need to make our election sure, ensuring that we remain in the faith!

John 15 is all about those who will be cut off, those who have already been cut off!

 

[Wormwood]

Hiddenmanna,

I can't be any more plain. If you still don't get it, someone else will have to explain it to you.

JB said,
"It seems to me Armenians don't understand the biblical concept of 'free will' as they keep defining it by choice and yeah by their own ignorant and subjective experience. In reality one is not free if he is morally incapable of making the correct choice by divine standards and no-one has been able to do that without assistance from the LORD almighty both pre and post conversion.

The armenians don't believe in total depravity as they still hold onto at least in part, some good resides in them or else who would choose Jesus as Lord and savior. Yet the scriptures indicate our tenor of life before Christ was in darkness and the bend of our life was to self and self alone.

I'll stop there for now."

You should really research a view before you attack it. We are not Pelagians. If you read the writing of people like Arminius or Wesley, you will see the very much hold to Total Depravity. The problem is not that they are lying but that you simply don't know what you are talking about. If anything Arminians are in line with early Augustinian teaching.

Must I really repeat that Arminians believe man is 100% depraved every post? Sigh.

 

[Angelina]

I don't believe in any of what Calvin professes...not even the T of TULIP...I think that every person gets more than one God moment in their lives as he reaches out to their hearts. I think that we have a "free will" and God gives us an opportunity to bring our will [as selfish and rebellious as it is] back into line with his will and purpose that he originally had for our lives... After all...we are all made from the same life breath and I doubt that he will ignore his life breath, the prodigal part of his very self...the choice I believe, still remains with us. JMHO.

PS: The problem with Calvin's theory is that it sets the limits within those boundaries so that everything else is measured within the scope of it. Even Arminianism...

BB

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Hiddenmanna,

I can't be any more plain. If you still don't get it, someone else will have to explain it to you.

JB said,
"It seems to me Armenians don't understand the biblical concept of 'free will' as they keep defining it by choice and yeah by their own ignorant and subjective experience. In reality one is not free if he is morally incapable of making the correct choice by divine standards and no-one has been able to do that without assistance from the LORD almighty both pre and post conversion.

The armenians don't believe in total depravity as they still hold onto at least in part, some good resides in them or else who would choose Jesus as Lord and savior. Yet the scriptures indicate our tenor of life before Christ was in darkness and the bend of our life was to self and self alone.

I'll stop there for now."

You should really research a view before you attack it. We are not Pelagians. If you read the writing of people like Arminius or Wesley, you will see the very much hold to Total Depravity. The problem is not that they are lying but that you simply don't know what you are talking about. If anything Arminians are in line with early Augustinian teaching.

Must I really repeat that Arminians believe man is 100% depraved every post? Sigh.

How is mankind 100% depraved? How does that affect him, both naturally and spiritually?

 

[HiddenManna]

Hiddenmanna,

I can't be any more plain. If you still don't get it, someone else will have to explain it to you.

JB said,
"It seems to me Armenians don't understand the biblical concept of 'free will' as they keep defining it by choice and yeah by their own ignorant and subjective experience. In reality one is not free if he is morally incapable of making the correct choice by divine standards and no-one has been able to do that without assistance from the LORD almighty both pre and post conversion.

The armenians don't believe in total depravity as they still hold onto at least in part, some good resides in them or else who would choose Jesus as Lord and savior. Yet the scriptures indicate our tenor of life before Christ was in darkness and the bend of our life was to self and self alone.

I'll stop there for now."

You should really research a view before you attack it. We are not Pelagians. If you read the writing of people like Arminius or Wesley, you will see the very much hold to Total Depravity. The problem is not that they are lying but that you simply don't know what you are talking about. If anything Arminians are in line with early Augustinian teaching.

Must I really repeat that Arminians believe man is 100% depraved every post? Sigh.

Of course they do not believe that, if they did they would not attempt to work by the flesh, the written code. Now saying something is one thing, one can say they have no confidence in the flesh, but if they "act" to justify the flesh? Then their words are just vain and religious and have no truth.

God is the One who draws us,

John 6:44 No man can come to me unless the Father who has sent me draws them

and

1 Cor 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness.

However, we are called into the race first, but not all are chosen.

Matthew 22:14 Many are called, but few are chosen

The above verse from Matthew is coming after Jesus gave the parable comparing the Kingdom of Heaven to a wedding banquet, on their own accord, they turned the Kingdom of God away to do their own thing. Even IF we are called, it does not mean we will be chosen.

As Paul spoke of the race we now enter after being called,

Hebrews 12:1 "...let us run the race with perseverance the race marked out for us" - some people will not finish! Again in 1 Cor 9:24 Paul implores us to run the race as to win the prize!

Paul is urging us to continue, not quit, persevere!

Galatians 4:19 My dear children for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you! - The Prize!!

Ephesians 4:13 until we all reach the unity in faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

We need to make our election sure, ensuring that we remain in the faith!

John 15 is all about those who will be cut off, those who have already been cut off!

I see you ignored the scripture that says in clear words that salvation is by the will of God and not man. And to "make your election sure" is not to embrace ones own "free-will" but to submit ones will to the Cross and walk in the Will of Gods Spirit.

 

[Levi]

I see you ignored the scripture that says in clear words that salvation is by the will of God and not man. And to "make your election sure" is not to embrace ones own "free-will" but to submit ones will to the Cross and walk in the Will of Gods Spirit.

We should take a balanced view and not pick and chose the scripture that supports man's ideas.

Sin leads to death.......whose choice is it to sin?