aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Adam and Eve were created without flaw. therefore they were perfect. no need for obscure language.
Predestination or "Free Will?"
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I posted some scripture that is contrary to your post in part 4. read it again and let's discuss it.KingJ said:I gave scriptures...If you are referring to pt 4. :wacko: You need scripture proving that God did not make some from a lump of honour and some from a lump of dishonour....
How about ''God made Adam''. Adam is singular. God did not make Adam the evil and Adam the good.
If you meditate on the baby example it will come to you too. If you got possession of Hitler's babies, would you throw them into a fire or bring them up to be good kids? ^_^
All scripture must be read in the light of God's definitions of Himself. We cannot read scripture and then form an opinion about the character of God. Example. God is impartial. Ie God does not make anyone for hell or heaven, we choose it. Now you go and read about Jacob and Esau and conclude that God is partial...when scripture says He is impartial. Why don't you try reason further?
If we read in the light of an impartial God we will see that the first couple verses..... (10 This son was our ancestor Isaac. When he married Rebekah, she gave birth to twins. 11 But before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. (This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes;12 he calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) She was told, “Your older son will serve your younger son.” 13 In the words of the Scriptures, “I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.” 14 Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not!15 ) speaks of God's power to place us where He wants us. Some are born into a rich family, some aren't. Some are born as a servant, some aren't. God's brain is much bigger then ours, He made us, He knows and has a purpose for everyone's life. This has NOTHING to do with being created for hell / God being partial!.
Now the second section seems to get everyone confused :) I explained it above, but will do it again...''I will show mercy to anyone I choose and I will show compassion to anyone I choose'' ''So it is God who decides to show mercy'' Yes, amen, He can do as He pleases, He is God and I am so glad it is Him who decides because I know that He defines Himself as a good and righteous judge! Hence He will not send me to hell unless I deserve it. . and then....thankfully for us...lest we be terribly confused on His daily moods....He tells us whom He has mercy and compassion on, Mark 8:34. Psalms 51:17 (There are many more of course that I am sure you know of).
I am not sure if you are one of the them but a few Calvinists like to create a blur around the definition of partial in 'God is partial' by associating it with showing favor. Just in case and for the reader, Partial = favouritism. God shows favor not favouritism. Obedience gets His favor, disobedience not. NOT one exempt harmless baby gets His favor and Hitlers baby not.
1. If you look closer you will see He hates those who disobey Him. He did not hate Cain until Cain mocked Him by disobeying Him with his sacrifice. It is no more a case of giving a cookie to a good child and a hiding to the naughty one. Favouritism is keeping some children in a room for 10 years like Ariel Castro whilst you spoil others. A partial God is evil!
2. As I explained to Jiggy, we cannot read scripture and form our opinion about the definitions of God's character. God defines Himself as ''He is''. We then work backwards to grasp all scripture in this light! Scripture says He IS good. He IS impartial. Now if we read about predestination and being foreknown, we can conclude that, yes He knew whom He would make and all be destined to be in Christ. Jesus died for everyone. Can you imagine Jesus saying to the other guy on the cross 'dude even if you did repent like the guy next to me' I am not dying for you....lol...that guy rejected Jesus, the other guy accepted Jesus, Jesus died for both. For those that accept Jesus, it is destined that they THEN be in - Christ.
3. You need to use more lateral thought. Scripture says that we must make righteous judgements...now would you ever send a baby to prison? Scripture says God is a righteous judge...how silly are we to think He would send a baby to prison, we conclude that God is evil and dumb...and base our whole belief system on that possibility....we just need to use logic and trust that scripture is true when it says God IS good and righteous. God cannot and will not be evil. So despite how evil God may appear in the passage of scripture you read, don't form an opinion that goes against God's definitions from prophets. Otherwise the entire bible is joke!!
As for sin entering the whole world, yes, it did enter when Adam sinned. But use some lateral thought. If Adam was guilty for our sin and ''sin'' he would surely be the only one to suffer for sin? The fact that we all stand before God on a judgement day before we go go to suffer in hell for sin is proof that we chose to sin just like he did. Why can't you reason further and conclude that God created the perfect setting for His purpose to be achieved. He put evil incarnate in the form of the devil with Adam. He knew what He was doing. The devil should be to blame....but then God put the devil here...God should be to blame....But then God made a way out and we can understand a perfect / good God will not sin, hence He just created the perfect setting...using the rebellion of His original creation to affect all and speed up their choices to accept or reject Him.
If God knows who will go to heaven and who to hell, WHY not just create us like angels in heaven first time around? God does what pleases Him and it pleases Him to be impartial. God IS soveriegn AND God IS impartial.
I found your post #115 interesting. Thanks for sharing that.
To all,
Predestination
Long ago in the old testament Isaiah, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, predicted a virgin birth, and the child's name would be called Emmanuel, by interpretation means, God with us (Isaiah 7:14). This prediction transpired in Matthew 1:23.
God knows the end from the beginning. He saw that man would rebel against Him, therefore, provided an escape to save His people from their sins before the foundation of the world. He predestined these to salvation not on the basis that He foreknew they would respond to the Gospel call (no one can respond, Romans 3:10-11), rather in this sense, that He knew by name those whom he chose to be saved:
“...and he calleth his own sheep by name...” John 10:3
“I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen...” John 13:18
“Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you...” John 15:16
Predestination is well taught in Scripture.
Free Will
Man in his natural state is a sinner and is spiritually dead I Corinthians 15:22, (which is also a picture of the spiritually dead be seen in the illustration in the raising of Lazarus), and is therefore, incapable to act upon the things of God. So what does he do? He devises a scheme in the form of a “free will” act whereby, he can give himself the ability to accept, to believe, and have faith in Jesus. But he forgot about Romans 3:10-11. Or, the devils that believe in Christ and they tremble James 2:19.
Some have argued that the raising of Lazarus is one of many miracles Jesus performed that taught the “I am” statements, for example: raising Lazarus - “I am the resurrection and the life”; healing the blind – I am the light of the world”; feeding the multitude – “I am the bread of life,” and so forth. These are all true statements, and they say that the spiritual meaning of Jesus bringing Lazarus out of the grave was to prove a point about God's sovereignty and man's lack of free will, yet this was exactly what God had demonstrated that He is Sovereign in all things!
Man believes he can accept, believe in, and have faith in Jesus because he feels “good” that he can somehow contribute something to his salvation, but accepting, believing, and having faith in Jesus are works that man performs therefore, contrary to Ephesians 2:9. We read:
“Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labor of love...”
I Thessalonians 1:3
The word “believe” is the verb of the noun “faith” and both mean the same. But where did faith come from? Was it instilled in us all along? As a matter of fact, the Bible tell us that Jesus is the Faithful One. Since Jesus is the faithful one, we can read Ephesians 2:8 this way: “For by grace are you saved through Jesus (faith); and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.” This is biblical to do!
Can We Say Now, We Are Saved By Grace Through Our Own Faith Or Through Jesus The Very Essence Of Faith?
There are many who deny the existence of the scripture text (I Thessalonians 1:3) because it simply destroys their belief on free will, and by their denial, they demonstrate also that they know more than God Who wrote the Bible.
Those who say they agree man is totally depraved and yet argue for free will and that there are some good in man does not understand that “the heart of man is desperately wicked, who can know it?” Jeremiah 17:9. And, is contradictory in terms. Free will was concocted by Arminius and is the father of it.
Why does God allow this to happen if free will is not taught in the Bible? I believe, once again, God is testing mankind just as He tested Adam long ago back there in the Garden of Eden. I believe this free will phenomenon is a plan by Satan to deceive man again, but ultimately, it is God's plan whether man will believe Satan or, be faithful as Abraham was faithful. Of course, the true believers will prevail and endure the test because Christ will be protecting them. Although Satan was defeated by Christ at the cross, Satan is loosed and is allowed to deceive the camp of the saints, which I believe is a picture of the battle of Armageddon, where Satan will have finally been defeated by Christ and thrown in hell.
Satan comes as an angel of light, that is, looking like Christ, and his ministers, ministers of righteousness, as we read in 2 Corinthians 11:13-15. Where do you suppose Satan and his ministers are operating? Yes, in the churches! This is the Abomination of Desolation that Daniel spoke about and can also be found in Matthew Chapter 24 where the churches will be over run by false gospels.
The Raising of Lazarus.
As Jesus arrived at the tomb, He cried out, “Lazarus come forth!” Can Lazarus hear the command? Of course not, he was dead no life in him. But he did come forth, what had to have happened? Jesus had to reach out into the tomb and give Lazarus life. As Lazarus was physically dead, so are we spiritually dead (impossible for us to understand spiritual things). As Lazarus was physically deaf, so are are spiritually deaf (our ears are dull in hearing the true Gospel). As Lazarus was physically blind, so are we spiritually blind (we cannot see the truths of the Bible). As Lazarus was physically closed lip, so are spiritually dumb (we are incapable of speaking spiritual things).
The Bible is the word of God
The Bible is its own dictionary
The Bible defines its own terms
Predestination
Long ago in the old testament Isaiah, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, predicted a virgin birth, and the child's name would be called Emmanuel, by interpretation means, God with us (Isaiah 7:14). This prediction transpired in Matthew 1:23.
God knows the end from the beginning. He saw that man would rebel against Him, therefore, provided an escape to save His people from their sins before the foundation of the world. He predestined these to salvation not on the basis that He foreknew they would respond to the Gospel call (no one can respond, Romans 3:10-11), rather in this sense, that He knew by name those whom he chose to be saved:
“...and he calleth his own sheep by name...” John 10:3
“I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen...” John 13:18
“Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you...” John 15:16
Predestination is well taught in Scripture.
Free Will
Man in his natural state is a sinner and is spiritually dead I Corinthians 15:22, (which is also a picture of the spiritually dead be seen in the illustration in the raising of Lazarus), and is therefore, incapable to act upon the things of God. So what does he do? He devises a scheme in the form of a “free will” act whereby, he can give himself the ability to accept, to believe, and have faith in Jesus. But he forgot about Romans 3:10-11. Or, the devils that believe in Christ and they tremble James 2:19.
Some have argued that the raising of Lazarus is one of many miracles Jesus performed that taught the “I am” statements, for example: raising Lazarus - “I am the resurrection and the life”; healing the blind – I am the light of the world”; feeding the multitude – “I am the bread of life,” and so forth. These are all true statements, and they say that the spiritual meaning of Jesus bringing Lazarus out of the grave was to prove a point about God's sovereignty and man's lack of free will, yet this was exactly what God had demonstrated that He is Sovereign in all things!
Man believes he can accept, believe in, and have faith in Jesus because he feels “good” that he can somehow contribute something to his salvation, but accepting, believing, and having faith in Jesus are works that man performs therefore, contrary to Ephesians 2:9. We read:
“Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labor of love...”
I Thessalonians 1:3
The word “believe” is the verb of the noun “faith” and both mean the same. But where did faith come from? Was it instilled in us all along? As a matter of fact, the Bible tell us that Jesus is the Faithful One. Since Jesus is the faithful one, we can read Ephesians 2:8 this way: “For by grace are you saved through Jesus (faith); and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.” This is biblical to do!
Can We Say Now, We Are Saved By Grace Through Our Own Faith Or Through Jesus The Very Essence Of Faith?
There are many who deny the existence of the scripture text (I Thessalonians 1:3) because it simply destroys their belief on free will, and by their denial, they demonstrate also that they know more than God Who wrote the Bible.
Those who say they agree man is totally depraved and yet argue for free will and that there are some good in man does not understand that “the heart of man is desperately wicked, who can know it?” Jeremiah 17:9. And, is contradictory in terms. Free will was concocted by Arminius and is the father of it.
Why does God allow this to happen if free will is not taught in the Bible? I believe, once again, God is testing mankind just as He tested Adam long ago back there in the Garden of Eden. I believe this free will phenomenon is a plan by Satan to deceive man again, but ultimately, it is God's plan whether man will believe Satan or, be faithful as Abraham was faithful. Of course, the true believers will prevail and endure the test because Christ will be protecting them. Although Satan was defeated by Christ at the cross, Satan is loosed and is allowed to deceive the camp of the saints, which I believe is a picture of the battle of Armageddon, where Satan will have finally been defeated by Christ and thrown in hell.
Satan comes as an angel of light, that is, looking like Christ, and his ministers, ministers of righteousness, as we read in 2 Corinthians 11:13-15. Where do you suppose Satan and his ministers are operating? Yes, in the churches! This is the Abomination of Desolation that Daniel spoke about and can also be found in Matthew Chapter 24 where the churches will be over run by false gospels.
The Raising of Lazarus.
As Jesus arrived at the tomb, He cried out, “Lazarus come forth!” Can Lazarus hear the command? Of course not, he was dead no life in him. But he did come forth, what had to have happened? Jesus had to reach out into the tomb and give Lazarus life. As Lazarus was physically dead, so are we spiritually dead (impossible for us to understand spiritual things). As Lazarus was physically deaf, so are are spiritually deaf (our ears are dull in hearing the true Gospel). As Lazarus was physically blind, so are we spiritually blind (we cannot see the truths of the Bible). As Lazarus was physically closed lip, so are spiritually dumb (we are incapable of speaking spiritual things).
The Bible is the word of God
The Bible is its own dictionary
The Bible defines its own terms
[SIZE=medium]I never suggested degrees of perfection, just that perfect is better than very good and everyone that is perfect is also very good, but not everyone that is very good is perfect. [/SIZE]aspen2 said:
[SIZE=medium]Where does the Bible say: “Adam and Eve fell”? They did become more knowledgeable and pass that knowledge on, but that does not mean their nature changed. [/SIZE]
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