Predestination VS Free Will

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One 2 question

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Anyway... Today we all have freewill. God also has free will. If he was to stop crime for one person, he would have to stop crime for all people.
Maybe Rahab was the exception. Only her and her family were shown mercy and received grace from the God of Israel. Even though she was a lying pagan prostitute who deserved to be stoned on at least 2 of these accounts according to God's law.

Yes she had the ability to choose (exercise her will) to commit these wicked acts along with the good, hiding the spies and resorting to lying in the process.
 

MatthewG

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Sure, Jesus paid for all people sins, but it still doesn't give them the right to rape, abuse, and murder people, be it male, female, or child.

I don't believe God loves that evil exist though it exist because of virtue of his light, and people are hurt and even heartbroken. Jesus came to restore peoples minds and hearts. Not lead them to destruction.

According to Jesus, people loved darkness much more than the light.
 

MatthewG

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I have heard this from my cousin - He never really thought what to believe about God and Jesus.


He ask "So you can just go around doing evil all your life and you are on your death bed and God's just gonna forgive you?"

All I could say is, a person wont be able to fool God, that is for sure... He knows if a heart truly desires to have him in his life or not.
 

One 2 question

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Theologically, there are two terms used in discussions - predestination and predetermination. The first one is about our final destination (salvation)
So the Creator determines a destination for some but not all?
Like the elect, to reign with His Son for 1000 years in His coming kingdom? And the rest, according to their free will willingly choose their own destination, which ends up not being in Jesus kingdom?
, the second one is about details in our life (or even movements of subatomic particles, whatever level of reality one wishes to go into).
Help us out here. Do you mean the details like choice you mean? Does the Creator predetermine what happens in His creation, in our everyday life? And whether we choose to obey Him or serve ourself, take up our cross daily or not? Who has determined or predetermined every cause and effect since the beginning?

It is good to not use them interchangeably.
Out of interest, and with respect, besides yourself, who said It is good to not use them interchangeably?
 

shepherdsword

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This topic always causes Godly fear in me. I am 63 now. As I look back on the wasted years I have much regret. Sure, there were some things I did right but I can only seem to focus on the failures. I cry out for mercy as I know I have lived far below my potential. My prayer is that I am not an Esau who sold his birthright but a prodigal son the Father will welcome home. Save me Lord Jesus!
 

HealthyShape

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So the Creator determines a destination for some but not all?
Like the elect, to reign with His Son for 1000 years in His coming kingdom? And the rest, according to their free will willingly choose their own destination, which ends up not being in Jesus kingdom?

Help us out here. Do you mean the details like choice you mean? Does the Creator predetermine what happens in His creation, in our everyday life? And whether we choose to obey Him or serve ourself, take up our cross daily or not? Who has determined or predetermined every cause and effect since the beginning?


Out of interest, and with respect, besides yourself, who said It is good to not use them interchangeably?
In theological discussions, these are two established terms with the meanings I provided. It is not good to use them interchangeably, because it shows you are not well oriented in the area.

If you want to say that our every movement, decision etc is controlled, you say "predetermined". If you want to say that some people are appointed to salvation and some to damnation, you say "predestined".
 

MatthewG

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This topic always causes Godly fear in me. I am 63 now. As I look back on the wasted years I have much regret. Sure, there were some things I did right but I can only seem to focus on the failures. I cry out for mercy as I know I have lived far below my potential. My prayer is that I am not an Esau who sold his birthright but a prodigal son the Father will welcome home. Save me Lord Jesus!

Hello Shepherdsword,

Made a video this morning with me cooking breakfast. One of the things I said on that video was about being honest before God about yourself, Jesus already took care of your failures. Hope you the best.

Grace, and peace,
Matthew
 
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One 2 question

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Sure, Jesus paid for all people sins, but it still doesn't give them the right to rape, abuse, and murder people, be it male, female, or child.
Unless it's God's will Who said, I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
I don't believe God loves that evil exist though it exist because of virtue of his light
But God Himself creates evil.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
, and people are hurt and even heartbroken. Jesus came to restore peoples minds and hearts. Not lead them to destruction.
Are you saying that because all have sinned and none seek God that they are born on the freeway to destruction? And if God didn't use His free will to choose some, all would reach their inevitable destination, the lake of fire?
According to Jesus, people loved darkness much more than the light.
A blind person doesn't have the capacity to see any light. So how can they know what light is and what it exposes? Isn't this what Jesus came to perform? The miracle of healing, giving sight to the blind so they can see Him Who is the Light and follow Him on the narrow path that leads to life.

Did anyone choose to be born blind and as a consequence live in darkness?
 

MatthewG

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Hello @One 2 question,

I am gonna just ignore your responses. I don't need a breakdown of what I am saying. I have no reason to engage with your comments.

Thank you, grace and peace,
Matthew
 

soberxp

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Sure, Jesus paid for all people sins, but it still doesn't give them the right to rape, abuse, and murder people, be it male, female, or child.

I don't believe God loves that evil exist though it exist because of virtue of his light, and people are hurt and even heartbroken. Jesus came to restore peoples minds and hearts. Not lead them to destruction.

According to Jesus, people loved darkness much more than the light.
Because you have to compare to know what's better.
Someone compared and chose darkness.
Someone compared and chose the light.
This is man's destiny.
The difference in destiny between the short-sighted (who look only at the present) and the far-sighted (who fix their eyes on the eternal) in the Bible.
 

One 2 question

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In theological discussions, these are two established terms with the meanings I provided. It is not good to use them interchangeably, because it shows you are not well oriented in the area.
So our daily life has no bearing on our destination? As this has been predetermined. Are our rewards and treasure in heaven predetermined or not?
The kings and priests who reign with King Jesus in His 1000 year kingdom are predetermined or predestined for these roles? As we will be rewarded (including a destination) according to what we have done.
If you want to say that our every movement, decision etc is controlled, you say "predetermined". If you want to say that some people are appointed to salvation and some to damnation, you say "predestined".
Sure. So has the Creator predetermined our exit in this life from the broad road and rerouted our journey to make sure we reach our new destination?
 
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One 2 question

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Because you have to compare to know what's better.
Someone compared and chose darkness.
Someone compared and chose the light.
This is man's destiny.
The difference in destiny between the short-sighted (who look only at the present) and the far-sighted (who fix their eyes on the eternal) in the Bible.
Yet we are all born blind. Someone born blind can only see and know darkness. Not much of a choice for that poor person. But if by some luck they gain a fraction of sight and therefore light, they could head towards it and follow it. Where does this 'luck' come from? Is it purely random?
 

shepherdsword

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Unless it's God's will Who said, I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

But God Himself creates evil.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
You are not understanding what God is saying. When he forms light, by contrast all that is outside of it is darkness, this is how darkness is created. When He creates peace all that opposes it is evil. That is how evil is created , by contrast. It's not saying that God literally does evil.
 

soberxp

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Yet we are all born blind. Someone born blind can only see and know darkness. Not much of a choice for that poor person. But if by some luck they gain a fraction of sight and therefore light, they could head towards it and follow it. Where does this 'luck' come from? Is it purely random?
It's not random, because there's a Bible to choose from, and if there's no Bible there's no choice.
 

MatthewG

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Because you have to compare to know what's better.
Someone compared and chose darkness.
Someone compared and chose the light.
This is man's destiny.
The difference in destiny between the short-sighted (who look only at the present) and the far-sighted (who fix their eyes on the eternal) in the Bible.

Hello Soberxp,

I am so thankful that Jesus came to a people who sat in darkness—just as it is written, “The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, and upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death, light has dawned” (Matthew 4:16, echoing Isaiah 9:2). He is the light of all mankind, as John declared: “In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it” (John 1:4–5).

He shows us what is right and true—not merely by law, but by the Spirit of truth, who guides us into all truth (John 16:13). While I might not believe every detail of the biblical narrative is directly for us, I do believe there is something in us that can learn, that can be transformed, that can mature into the likeness of the one who spoke those things.

As Paul wrote, “We all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord” (2 Corinthians 3:18). This is the mystery: “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Colossians 1:27)—the resurrected Lord Yeshua alive in us, not just as doctrine, but as breath, as fire, as the Word made flesh again in our walk.

Grace and peace,
Matthew
 

Episkopos

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Yet we are all born blind. Someone born blind can only see and know darkness. Not much of a choice for that poor person. But if by some luck they gain a fraction of sight and therefore light, they could head towards it and follow it. Where does this 'luck' come from? Is it purely random?
The problem is not so much being blind, as in the imagination that one isn't blind when one is. Jesus told the Pharisees...because you say "we see" your sin remains.

Righteousness is granted to a person if they can admit their own blindness. From there they can receive light.

The devil's tactic is to create a shadow religion whereby God can only see you AS IF you were actually in the light...even as you wallow in darkness. This tries to push the blindness back onto God. As in..."when God sees me He only sees JESUS." :Happy:

....or else...the fiction I believe in is part of God's plan...the upside down gospel...making something to believe in about oneself from nothing. In that scheme all I have to do is believe that in my nakedness I am actually fully clothed, that in my blindness I can actually see. The foolish idea is that God routinely called things into existence that aren't there. That fictitious proposition is proposed by the devil as a faith that saves. Utter foolishness! It is turning aside to fables. The fable in this case is the "emperor's new clothes" (of righteousness) So then unrighteousness is seen as righteousness...destroying the gospel by twisting its message to favour the flesh and its pretense of naming and claiming. In this scheme God's love blinds Him to the truth.


If that was the case then why does Jesus rebuke the Laodiceans so sharply, calling them poor naked wretched and blind? The devil takes away people's reasoning power...giving them "hopium" ...by promising them life and glory for a mere posturing that doesn't include God at all. No, it is a scheme based on the imagination that exalts itself above a real knowledge of God.
 
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soberxp

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The problem is not so much being blind, as in the imagination that one isn't blind when one is. Jesus told the Pharisees...because you say "we see" your sin remains.

Righteousness is granted to a person if they can admit their own blindness. From there they can receive light.

The devil's tactic is to create a shadow religion whereby God can only see you AS IF you were actually in the light...even as you wallow in darkness. This tries to push the blindness back onto God. As in..."when God sees me He only sees JESUS." :Happy:

....or else...the fiction I believe in is part of God's plan...the upside down gospel...making something to believe in about oneself from nothing. In that scheme all I have to do is believe that in my nakedness I am actually fully clothed, that in my blindness I can actually see. The foolish idea is that God routinely called things into existence that aren't there. That fictitious proposition is proposed by the devil as a faith that saves. Utter foolishness! It is turning aside to fables. The fable in this case is the "emperor's new clothes" (of righteousness) So then unrighteousness is seen as righteousness...destroying the gospel by twisting its message to favour the flesh and its pretense of naming and claiming. In this scheme God's love blinds Him to the truth.


If that was the case then why does Jesus rebuke the Laodiceans so sharply, calling them poor naked wretched and blind? The devil takes away people's reasoning power...giving them "hopium" ...by promising them life and glory for a mere posturing that doesn't include God at all. No, it is a scheme based on the imagination that exalts itself above a real knowledge of God.
Why do you not think it is sin that works in those people, rather than they themselves do?
 

Episkopos

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Why do you not think it is sin that works in those people, rather than they themselves do?
We have free will. As such we can boast of our greatness, or pound our chest in humility. How do we behave knowing we are sinners? Do we turn to a false gospel and declare ourselves righteous based on our new beliefs? If we do that we are adding sin to sin.

How deep do our sins go? The only solution to sin is the cross of Christ...being crucified in the outer man sin nature in order to be empowered in the inner man to PUT ON CHRIST. As Paul says...no longer I (ego).
 
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soberxp

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We have free will. As such we can boast of our greatness, or pound our chest in humility. How do we behave knowing we are sinners? Do we turn to a false gospel and declare ourselves righteous based on our new beliefs? If we do that we are adding sin to sin.

How deep do our sins go? The only solution to sin is the cross of Christ...being crucified in the outer man sin nature in order to be empowered in the inner man to PUT ON CHRIST. As Paul says...no longer I (ego).
Is it not sin dwelling in them that made the Pharisees do these deeds? Just as Jesus said, "Your sins remain."

For they live under the law.
 

Episkopos

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Is it not sin dwelling in them that made the Pharisees do these deeds? Just as Jesus said, "Your sins remain."

For they live under the law.
No...it is sin dwelling ON them that makes them wicked. Sin dwelling IN them makes them weak. But a humble man can avoid presumptuous sins...and be justified by God even with sin still IN them.

Free will means we can say NO to a false covering that adds sin to sin.
 
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