Predestined to be saved or lost?

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Cooper

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I've noticed in debate that if I bring up how it implies that God predestined for Satanists to rape and murder little children on their altars, this never gets a response.
It is freewill. Everything we do is because we want to do it. Consequently, the blame is entirely ours.
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Hidden In Him

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It is freewill. Everything we do is because we want to do it. Consequently, the blame is entirely ours.
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Seems to make more sense of Hell - that people who do evil end up having evil things done to them - then that God designed it so that torturous evil is done to others in this life, and then torturous evil is done to them in the next. Not a theology I could ever embrace. Nor does the concept that "we can't understand God" ever float with me. If we can't understand Him, why did He give us a Bible? :confused:
 

Cooper

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Seems to make more sense of Hell - that people who do evil end up having evil things done to them - then that God designed it so that torturous evil is done to others in this life, and then torturous evil is done to them in the next. Not a theology I could ever embrace. Nor does the concept that "we can't understand God" ever float with me. If we can't understand Him, why did He give us a Bible? :confused:
Really we should go to hell but thankfully we have a saviour in whom we put our trust and he, it is who paid the price for our iniquities, conquered sin and death and gave us new life in Him. We are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, and if we follow Him all the days of our life we shall be walking in paths of righteousness and the world would be a beautiful place. Thank you Lord, come soon.
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Eternally Grateful

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That is what predestination is, "Whoever believes" will spend eternity with Him and he knew who would choose him and who would reject him from the foundation of the world.
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But he did not predestine those to go to hell. Otherwise, he could not offer them salvation for them to reject
 

Cooper

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But he did not predestine those to go to hell. Otherwise, he could not offer them salvation for them to reject
Precisely as you say, what would be the point of offering us salvation if God has already decided for us?
God does not choose our end. We decide that ourselves by whether we accept his offer of salvation or not. But God knows the way we will go from the foundation of the world by his foreknowledge, but He will always provide us with a secure future if that is what we want, AND provided we remain faithful we are eternally secure.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Precisely as you say, what would be the point of offering us salvation if God has already decided for us?
God does not choose our end. We decide that ourselves by whether we accept his offer of salvation or not. But God knows the way we will go from the foundation of the world by his foreknowledge, but He will always provide us with a secure future if that is what we want, AND provided we remain faithful we are eternally secure.

the bolded part places self in the equation.

the mere fact God predestined us to be conformed to the image of his sin before time began removes self from the equation.

Because it makes God out to be a liar and a failure.
 

Cooper

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the bolded part places self in the equation.

the mere fact God predestined us to be conformed to the image of his sin before time began removes self from the equation.

Because it makes God out to be a liar and a failure.
Well of course we are part of the equation. Salvation is a free gift that is offered to who-so-ever-will receive it during their lifetime. You know what happens to free gifts. We tend not to value them. Just do not separate yourSELF from the presence of the Lord permanently.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Well of course we are part of the equation. Salvation is a free gift that is offered to who-so-ever-will receive it during their lifetime. You know what happens to free gifts. We tend not to value them. Just do not separate yourSELF from the presence of the Lord permanently.
where can you go where the lord is not?
 

Eternally Grateful

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Omnipresent but not necessarily with us.
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Mat 18:20 KJV)


Did Not jesus ask the prophet in the OT, where can you go that I am not there.

Jesus promised he would never leave nor forsake us. So where can we go that Jesus can not go, where can we hide that he can not see us. Where can we go where he goes back on his word and he is forced to forsake us?

Forsake in the greek - aniemi - to loose, to desert, to unfasten, to abandon, to give up. to leave, not uphold. to let sink.

as I asked you before. What father will let there child jump of a cliff, or sink into a hole where they will die without holding on to them? What father forsakes their child even if the child wants to die.

because this is what we are talking about. We are not talking about letting them commit a sin where they will get hurt, we are talking about them committing spiritual suicide.
 

Cooper

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Did Not jesus ask the prophet in the OT, where can you go that I am not there.

Jesus promised he would never leave nor forsake us. So where can we go that Jesus can not go, where can we hide that he can not see us. Where can we go where he goes back on his word and he is forced to forsake us?

Forsake in the greek - aniemi - to loose, to desert, to unfasten, to abandon, to give up. to leave, not uphold. to let sink.

as I asked you before. What father will let there child jump of a cliff, or sink into a hole where they will die without holding on to them? What father forsakes their child even if the child wants to die.

because this is what we are talking about. We are not talking about letting them commit a sin where they will get hurt, we are talking about them committing spiritual suicide.
Well if my father said, do not do such and such a thing I would not do it. So when we read about the dangers of backsliding for example, which people say cannot happen, that is an unbelieving spirit. I do wonder about people's personal relationship with God, when that happens and if he really is their heavenly Father or if they have another, god or none at all.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Well if my father said, do not do such and such a thing I would not do it. So when we read about the dangers of backsliding for example, which people say cannot happen, that is an unbelieving spirit. I do wonder about people's personal relationship with God, when that happens and if he really is their heavenly Father or if they have another, god or none at all.
We are not talking about actions

We are talking about a child trying to commit suicide.

In effect. A person who falls away and says he does not want Christ anymore is committing spiritual suicide, He will die (if it was possible) for ever and end up in hell

We are not talking about your father saying do not go out tonight. or do not sleep with your girl friend. God will allow us to do that, he is not going to stop. although he will try.

And you never disobeyed your father or mother?
 

Cooper

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We are not talking about actions

We are talking about a child trying to commit suicide.

In effect. A person who falls away and says he does not want Christ anymore is committing spiritual suicide, He will die (if it was possible) for ever and end up in hell

We are not talking about your father saying do not go out tonight. or do not sleep with your girl friend. God will allow us to do that, he is not going to stop. although he will try.

And you never disobeyed your father or mother?
This reminds me of the Jewish women chattering in the synagogue during the service, because they only know the language of the marketplace, and they haven't got a clue what is being said. Talk about wasting my time!
 

Eternally Grateful

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This reminds me of the Jewish women chattering in the synagogue during the service, because they only know the language of the marketplace, and they haven't got a clue what is being said. Talk about wasting my time!
lol. Was it you wasting your time, or me?

or are we just having a discussion?

We are talking about walking away from God and losing salvation are we not?

is that not spiritual suicide?
 

strepho

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Most people have free will. Gods Elect have holy spirit. The Election are predestined, chosen before foundation of the world, documentation, first Peter chapter 1, romans chapter 11, chapter 8, ephesians chapter 1, and Isaiah chapter 65. Satan led a rebellion against God in first earth age, Jeremiah chapter 4. One third of God's children followed satan. God destroyed first earth age. Were in second earth age. Revelation is 12, one third will be born in the flesh and tested by antichrist near future. The one third have free will. Gods Elect don't have free will. God will use satan in his role as antichrist to test people near future. Revelation chapter 13 to document this. The saints are God's Elect, they have seal of God. Revelation is 20, the millennium is the last chance for the spirtualty dead. At judgement day, they are judged by their works by Jesus.
 

Stumpmaster

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Most people have free will. Gods Elect have holy spirit. The Election are predestined, chosen before foundation of the world, documentation, first Peter chapter 1, romans chapter 11, chapter 8, ephesians chapter 1, and Isaiah chapter 65. Satan led a rebellion against God in first earth age, Jeremiah chapter 4. One third of God's children followed satan. God destroyed first earth age. Were in second earth age. Revelation is 12, one third will be born in the flesh and tested by antichrist near future. The one third have free will. Gods Elect don't have free will. God will use satan in his role as antichrist to test people near future. Revelation chapter 13 to document this. The saints are God's Elect, they have seal of God. Revelation is 20, the millennium is the last chance for the spirtualty dead. At judgement day, they are judged by their works by Jesus.
From another perspective:

The Gap Theory, also known as the Ruin and Reconstruction Theory of creation, is a theological interpretation that suggests that there was a gap of time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 in the Bible. This theory postulates that an unspecified amount of time passed between these two verses, during which God’s initial creation (seen in 1:1) was ruled over by Lucifer. With Lucifer’s rebellion, God judged the world.

Gap theorists insert millions of years between the first two verses of Genesis. However, this theory has been criticized for adding to Scripture and contradicting what God says elsewhere in his Word. It even destroys the scarlet thread of the gospel that runs throughout the Bible’s interwoven narrative.