Predestined to be saved or lost?

[St. SteVen]

The problem with this reasoning leaves us to think, if God knows who he will save and those who he will condemn why worry about salvation then. This is the problem when you use a particular scripture to form your reasoning. You don’t see the complete picture of God’s divine plan.

Yes.
The biggest problem from my perspective is those who were not predestined to be saved were created to be damned.
What kind of a God would do such a thing? And if the broad and narrow way refer to the afterlife...
then God intended to destroy the vast majority, or worse. Eternal torment in a forever burning hell with no hope of escape.
And that based on God's choice, not our own. But most Christians are glad to blame the victims. Labeling them "haters of God."

 

[L.A.M.B.]

@Tomorrow
Welcome to the forums at Christianity boards.

 

[Nancy]

Yes.
The biggest problem from my perspective is those who were not predestined to be saved were created to be damned.
What kind of a God would do such a thing? And if the broad and narrow way refer to the afterlife...
then God intended to destroy the vast majority, or worse. Eternal torment in a forever burning hell with no hope of escape.
And that based on God's choice, not our own. But most Christians are glad to blame the victims. Labeling them "haters of God."

The "L" in the Calvin doctrine TULIP has always bothered me no end. Still, God The Father, is worthy of worship and glory as His ways are much higher than ours, He wants only the best for us. It's just a shame that our own species has made all the decisions to land us where we are today.
Besides, we could have ended up with a much worse God! Like another human being!!! heaven would for sure be empty..

 

[Gottservant]

I wish there was common understanding about this: when you do good, you justify a good title, when you do evil, you justify an evil title.

Thus when you do good, you are predestined to Heaven, because of your good title; and when you do evil, you are predestined to Hell, because of your evil title.

This all happens in motion, and requires you to choose, which you will serve and how - do you want a good title or a bad title?

It is a choice of predestination, just as there is choice in Heaven, but no choice in Hell.

 

[Tomorrow]

@Tomorrow
Welcome to the forums at Christianity boards.

Thanks.

 

[Tomorrow]

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified In The
Lord Jesus Christ And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided ( I and II ). PG rated "Approved" *

Grace, Peace, Mercy And Love

View attachment 35518

That made my heart feel very warm and content. Thank you for posting that my precious friend also.

 

[Tomorrow]

Yes, it certainly does.
Here's the problem with predestination...
If God only predestined SOME to be saved, then he also predestined everyone else to "destruction".
Or at least that is the obvious conclusion. Unless God intends to save everyone, which is his will.

That's a fair point. On both sides of it . Thanks.

Careful!
You know what they say...
Idle hands are the Devils' workshop. - LOL


@Patrick1966

LOL

 

[St. SteVen]

Besides, we could have ended up with a much worse God! Like another human being!!!

Oh my.
Reminds me of the widow's funeral comment.
"Well, at least he was a good provider."
She could have ended up with a much worse husband,
Meaning: He was a real ____________. (fill in the blank)

What this tells me, is that the common doctrine about the final judgment (L) cannot be right.
Our God couldn't be BETTER, not could have been worse.

 

[St. SteVen]

I wish there was common understanding about this: when you do good, you justify a good title, when you do evil, you justify an evil title.

Thus when you do good, you are predestined to Heaven, because of your good title; and when you do evil, you are predestined to Hell, because of your evil title.

This all happens in motion, and requires you to choose, which you will serve and how - do you want a good title or a bad title?

Does God grade on a curve?
No one is ALL good, neither is anyone ALL bad.
Where do you draw the line?

Humans want to justify themselves by pointing at someone worse.
I used to see this in prison ministry all the time.
I wanted to say, "You're in prison, HELLO!"

It is a choice of predestination, just as there is choice in Heaven, but no choice in Hell.

This is a misunderstanding of the term predestination. It's not a choice.
Our Christian apologetics have twisted the term to fit a conflicting doctrinal set.

 

[Behold]

I think if God determined all are born condemned as sinners and later sent his son to redeem people of that condition that it was all God's doing.

What you decide to do in the next 30 seconds is not "God's doing", its your doing.

What Adam decided to do was Adam's decision, not God's will.

See, once the deception that is.. "= God caused you to do it", is believed, then personal accountability is removed, and that will never happen.
You are in charge of your behavior, not God.

The thing that Calvin's disciples can never understand, is that if God caused you to do it, then God can't hold you accountable.
Yet He does..., and thus endeth the Hyper-Calvinism nonsense.

 

[mailmandan]

Romans 8:29 - For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I understand predestination based on God's foreknowledge rather than fatalistic determination.

 

[MatthewG]

I understand predestination based on God's foreknowledge rather than fatalistic determination.

What do you mean when you say that mailman?

I would say that it is still viable today that people are called to become more like Jesus Christ, by the spirit.

 

[mailmandan]

What do you mean when you say that mailman?

I would say that it is still viable today that people are called to become more like Jesus Christ, by the spirit.

What I mean is that I don't believe God forces us to choose and we have no choice in the matter as if God "fatalistically determines" who will and who won't be predestined, called, justified and glorified.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Predestination


This subject has been debated since I was a young man. Some say that the Lord has predestined some which will be saved and those to go to Hell. They say that this has been determined from the beginning. They use scriptures that were have been predestined from the foundation of the world. The problem with this reasoning leaves us to think, if God knows who he will save and those who he will condemn why worry about salvation then. This is the problem when you use a particular scripture to form your reasoning. You don’t see the complete picture of God’s divine plan.


There are two scriptures I’d like to focus on, Peter and Ephesians.

First we read in Peter the following scripture written:


I Peter 1:19


“But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without

spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world,”



If you notice in this scripture Peter tells us that Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world. This means Before the foundation was ever laid were were determined to be redeemed by the blood of Christ. That means even before Adam was created. God’s divine plan to redeem us was determined then and not after the fall of man. The we have Ephesians:



“Ephesians 1:4


According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and

without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.”


Yes we were predestined to become the sons of God in Christ before the foundation of the world. But to imply some are chosen through predestination to be saved and some to be lost is not implied here. If we take God at his word when he said whosever will let him come does not pick and chose.


Mark 3:35


“For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.”


There is predestination but not the pick and chose this one will be saved or this one is to be lost. That would deny that ability to those whosoever will.

Does God predict history or does he create history?

 

[St. SteVen]

Romans 8:29 - For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I understand predestination based on God's foreknowledge rather than fatalistic determination.

Great post, thanks.

Rereading the scripture you posted, I see that Christians stop short of the WHOLE predestination statement.
It reads... "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son..."

So, not "predestined" for salvation. Or "fatalistic determination" as you wrote.
But rather, predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. (those he foreknew)

Which needs to be included to the thought in verse 30.
Those he predestined (to be conformed to the image of His Son). He also called...

 

[Nancy]

Does God predict history or does he create history?

Good morning C&Z!
I would say that no, He does not "predict" history but foresees history as God sees the beginning to the end. And, He is so all knowing that it is nothing for Him to arrange things to happen without stripping us of freewill. Here is a small example and, this is only my take from what I have experienced and believe that God showed me this many years back as, I used to be a speeder. He put that thought in my mind by showing me what could happen if I push the envelope.

Take the example of a son or daughter of The Lord's, driving a vehicle while going to or coming from work. They may be running late for work, or something else and are tempted to speed up to pass the next green light before it turns red.
If they are becoming impatient or anxious to get through the light, somebody they do not see runs a stale yellow light...the Christian would be sideswiped but, if they trust God and wait for the light, God (IMHO) saved them from an accident because He sees what we do not.
I could come up with many scenarios just like the above one, but I think you get what I'm saying.
JMHO bro and sis.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Good morning C&Z!
I would say that no, He does not "predict" history but foresees history as God sees the beginning to the end. And, He is so all knowing that it is nothing for Him to arrange things to happen without stripping us of freewill. Here is a small example and, this is only my take from what I have experienced and believe that God showed me this many years back as, I used to be a speeder. He put that thought in my mind by showing me what could happen if I push the envelope.

Take the example of a son or daughter of The Lord's, driving a vehicle while going to or coming from work. They may be running late for work, or something else and are tempted to speed up to pass the next green light before it turns red.
If they are becoming impatient or anxious to get through the light, somebody they do not see runs a stale yellow light...the Christian would be sideswiped but, if they trust God and wait for the light, God (IMHO) saved them from an accident because He sees what we do not.
I could come up with many scenarios just like the above one, but I think you get what I'm saying.
JMHO bro and sis.

Yes, Nancy, I understand what you are saying.

To answer my own question, God creates history.
According to the book of Isaiah, God challenges Israel regarding their idolatry. The essential question is this: can your idols do this? He states that he will orchestrate historical events to make it impossible for them to deny his involvement. He will reveal them in advance to ensure they recognize his hand in these events. In conclusion, God is the ultimate creator of history.

Predestination is predicated on God's creation of everything that exists, including history. Would you believe in predestination if freedom of the will could be preserved?

 

[Nancy]

Yes, Nancy, I understand what you are saying.

To answer my own question, God creates history.
According to the book of Isaiah, God challenges Israel regarding their idolatry. The essential question is this: can your idols do this? He states that he will orchestrate historical events to make it impossible for them to deny his involvement. He will reveal them in advance to ensure they recognize his hand in these events. In conclusion, God is the ultimate creator of history.

Predestination is predicated on God's creation of everything that exists, including history. Would you believe in predestination if freedom of the will could be preserved?

Would you believe in predestination if freedom of the will could be preserved?"

Actually I DO believe in both to an extent. And yes to your question, for sure. It's funny how many today use the term X-Mas to cross out Christ yet, X is the first letter of the name of Christ:

" It’s the Greek letter chi and is the first letter of Christ.
In Greek, Christ looks like this: Χριστός.
Because of this, X has been used as an abbreviation for Christ very early in Christianity.
The so-called Jesus Fish symbol comes from an acronym that incorporates X as a stand-in for Christ. ΙΧΘΥΣ is the Greek word for fish, but early Christians used it as shorthand for “Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior.”

Why X-mas Actually Keeps Christ in Christmas - Lifeway Research

For many looking for the “War on Christmas,” X marks the spot. Historically, however, X-mas is closer to Christmas than you may realize.

research.lifeway.com

So, unbelievers can deny His involvement all they want, He will still be involved. He's magnificent!
Much love to you both, God bless.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Actually I DO believe in both to an extent. And yes to your question, for sure. It's funny how many today use the term X-Mas to cross out Christ yet, X is the first letter of the name of Christ:

" It’s the Greek letter chi and is the first letter of Christ.
In Greek, Christ looks like this: Χριστός.
Because of this, X has been used as an abbreviation for Christ very early in Christianity.
The so-called Jesus Fish symbol comes from an acronym that incorporates X as a stand-in for Christ. ΙΧΘΥΣ is the Greek word for fish, but early Christians used it as shorthand for “Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior.”

Why X-mas Actually Keeps Christ in Christmas - Lifeway Research

For many looking for the “War on Christmas,” X marks the spot. Historically, however, X-mas is closer to Christmas than you may realize.

research.lifeway.com

So, unbelievers can deny His involvement all they want, He will still be involved. He's magnificent!
Much love to you both, God bless.

May the Lord richly bless you this week.

 

[Nancy]

May the Lord richly bless you this week.

And, likewise! Thank you.