Premil vs Amil

[Stranger]

You are the avoider!
Don't you read Revelation 7:9-14? Its plainly stated that God's saints have passed thru great tribulation. They have washed their clothes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. That is: that vast multitude are people who have proved their faith in Jesus through the time of God's wrath.

However, I do believe that the 'tribulation' referred to in Rev 7, is the Sixth Seal event, not the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, that comes later.
Revelation 12:6-17 tells us what will happen to those Christians during the GT. One thing is for sure, they do not sit in heaven then, or for any other time.

My point was that you and others are always whining about Christians who hold to the Rapture are trying to avoid trials and testings. But the Tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not trials and testing for the believer. It is a time of wrath against unbelieving Israel and an unbelieving world.

Big difference.

Stranger

 

[Keraz]

So Jesus is somewhere preparing a place for 'us' during the Millennium now?

Yes, He is preparing the New Jerusalem, that will come to the earth after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7
All those people whose names are Written in the Book of Life will live in it.

But before then, we humans remain on earth and we must keep strong in our faith during all that must happen before then. Revelation 13:10
God does promise to protect and save all those who call upon His Name; Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

 

[Keraz]

My point was that you and others are always whining about Christians who hold to the Rapture are trying to avoid trials and testings. But the Tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not trials and testing for the believer. It is a time of wrath against unbelieving Israel and an unbelieving world.

Big difference.
Stranger

Yes, you are right, the GT is God's punishment onto those who have taken the mark of the beast. Revelation 9:20-21, 13:16-17
However, as we see from Revelation 12:6-17, God's people remain on earth, some taken to safety, others remain under the control of the Anti Christ, for that 1260 days.

So you call me 'whining' when I point out your wrong and unbiblical beliefs? Why don't you prove your belief of a 'rapture' with actual scripture? And if you can't do that, then seriously reconsider them and find out what God actually does Plan for His people.

 

[Enoch111]

God's people remain on earth, some taken to safety, others remain under the control of the Anti Christ, for that 1260 days.

The question is "Who exactly are these people?" and the answer is also found in Revelation 12.

"And the woman fled into the wilderness" gives us the first indication. This woman is symbolic of the believing remnant of Israel, since the twelve stars around her head represent Israel (see Joseph's dream in Gen 37:9), and the man-child who will rule with a rod of iron is Christ Himself, who came out of Israel (not the Church).

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed" gives us a clearer picture of the believing remnant of Israel during the 3 1/2 year reign of the Antichrist.

So we are NOT looking at the Church but believing Jews during the Tribulation (which coincides with the reign of the Antichrist).

 

[Stranger]

Yes, you are right, the GT is God's punishment onto those who have taken the mark of the beast. Revelation 9:20-21, 13:16-17
However, as we see from Revelation 12:6-17, God's people remain on earth, some taken to safety, others remain under the control of the Anti Christ, for that 1260 days.

So you call me 'whining' when I point out your wrong and unbiblical beliefs? Why don't you prove your belief of a 'rapture' with actual scripture? And if you can't do that, then seriously reconsider them and find out what God actually does Plan for His people.

When the Rapture takes place, there are at that time no believers on earth. Thus the day of wrath comes upon all those unbelieving. Many will turn to Christ at that time, but they then have to endure that time of wrath through suffering and death.

Again, my point is, it is not a time of trial like God brings to his people now. It is a day of wrath and judgement. Therefore your statements that believers should not be trying to get out of trials and testings from God does not apply.

I have debated the Rapture and Tribulation with you before. It goes nowhere. I wanted to point out the distinction between testing and the Tribulation period.

Stranger

 

[Keraz]

When the Rapture takes place,

I am waiting for the proof that God will take His Church to heaven. Until I see a scripture that actually says that, then your assertions that He will are false teaching and you are promoting fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
Many prophesies do tell us what God plans for His people, why don't you believe them? Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

 

[Enoch111]

I am waiting for the proof that God will take His Church to heaven.

It has been given a hundred times, but you have never believed Christ in this matter.

JOHN 14

THERE IS NO TRIBULATION WITH THE RAPTURE
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

GOD THE FATHER'S HOUSE IS HEAVEN
2 In my Father's house are many mansions:...

CHRIST IS IN HEAVEN PREPARING A PLACE FOR THE CHURCH
...if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

CHRIST WILL PERSONALLY COME TO TAKE HIS BRIDE TO HEAVEN
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

THE ONE WHO CAME FROM HEAVEN RETURNED TO HEAVEN
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

 

[Keraz]

It has been given a hundred times, but you have never believed Christ in this matter.

JOHN 14

THERE IS NO TRIBULATION WITH THE RAPTURE
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

GOD THE FATHER'S HOUSE IS HEAVEN
2 In my Father's house are many mansions:...

CHRIST IS IN HEAVEN PREPARING A PLACE FOR THE CHURCH
...if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

CHRIST WILL PERSONALLY COME TO TAKE HIS BRIDE TO HEAVEN
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

THE ONE WHO CAME FROM HEAVEN RETURNED TO HEAVEN
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

NONE of those 'proofs say that God will take His people to live in heaven. You have just assumed that.

1/ I too believe in God and am born again in Jesus. Like many other fellow Christians, I refuse to believe in any teachings that are not clearly stated. The rapture is one, there are others. Jesus said that we could be deceived and Peter said that ravening wolves will ravage the flock. Believers in unscriptural theories are wolves trophies.

2/ It is obvious when ALL the Bible is read, that those 'mansions' refer to the New Jerusalem, that comes to earth after the Millennium. Jesus WILL come again and His people will be with Him then. Matthew 24:30-31
3/ So; do you know the way to get up to heaven? As a physical human? If not how do you expect to go there?
The Bible does not even say we go to heaven when we die and even the martyrs who are killed for their faith, only have their souls kept under the Altar.
But the real proof that no one is 'raptured to heaven, is the many prophesies that tell us what God does Plan for His people. For them to be the people He always wanted in the holy Land; His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations; Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16
If you don't want to be a part of that amazing time, then you have failed basic Christian knowledge and understanding.

 

[Stranger]

I am waiting for the proof that God will take His Church to heaven. Until I see a scripture that actually says that, then your assertions that He will are false teaching and you are promoting fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
Many prophesies do tell us what God plans for His people, why don't you believe them? Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

I have argued with you before concerning these things. Once you are brought to a place where the proof is before you, you just throw in a long list of verses and try to restart the argument again. You're not looking for proof.

Again, my point is that the Tribulation is a time of the wrath of God upon an unbelieving world and Israel. Thus it is not correct to say believers who hold to the Rapture are trying to avoid testings and trials of God.

Stranger

 

[Keraz]

I have argued with you before concerning these things. Once you are brought to a place where the proof is before you, you just throw in a long list of verses and try to restart the argument again. You're not looking for proof.

You wouldn't know proof if it fell on your head. The plain Word of scripture, of what Jesus taught, is my proof that there is no 'rapture to heaven' for the Church.

I'm glad you at least accept the scriptures that say we must endure until the end. Most 'rapture' believers want to escape from this earth during the time of God's wrath. An extremely pretentious and totally unbelievable idea.

 

[Stranger]

You wouldn't know proof if it fell on your head. The plain Word of scripture, of what Jesus taught, is my proof that there is no 'rapture to heaven' for the Church.

I'm glad you at least accept the scriptures that say we must endure until the end. Most 'rapture' believers want to escape from this earth during the time of God's wrath. An extremely pretentious and totally unbelievable idea.

As I said, you're not looking for proof.

I don't know what you're alluding to in your last paragraph.

Stranger

 

[Enoch111]

Most 'rapture' believers want to escape from this earth during the time of God's wrath.

That's just your imagination. It is God who tells us that Christians are NOT subject to His wrath. However, you prefer not to believe God.

 

[Keraz]

That's just your imagination. It is God who tells us that Christians are NOT subject to His wrath. However, you prefer not to believe God.

I believe God's Word. Nowhere does it say the church will be taken to heaven.

Yes, we Christians are not the object of God's wrath, no one disputes that.
He will protect His people, those who call upon His Name, Joel 2:32 and Acts 2:21, NOT remove them.

I have reported you for false accusations.

 

[Heart2Soul]

My point was that you and others are always whining about Christians who hold to the Rapture are trying to avoid trials and testings. But the Tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not trials and testing for the believer. It is a time of wrath against unbelieving Israel and an unbelieving world.

Big difference.

Stranger

THE GREAT TRIBULATION is the time of God's Wrath...and that tribulation comes after the seals have been opened.....(church doctrines have only taught about the 7 year tribulation which is misinterpreted by the way)….I have recently learned there are 3 tribulation periods in the Bible....makes sense to me...God has to cover all spiritual bases so that Satan will never again have authority over His creation.

 

[Stranger]

THE GREAT TRIBULATION is the time of God's Wrath...and that tribulation comes after the seals have been opened.....(church doctrines have only taught about the 7 year tribulation which is misinterpreted by the way)….I have recently learned there are 3 tribulation periods in the Bible....makes sense to me...God has to cover all spiritual bases so that Satan will never again have authority over His creation.

Well, I hold that the Tribulation period is the 70th week of Daniel. This would make it characterized by the 70 week periods. And that was to be a time of tribulation and wrath for Israel.

So, I have no problem calling the Tribulation the Great Tribulation. Nor do I have a problem calling the the seven year period the Tribulation and the last 3 and 1/2 years, the Great Tribulation.

Stranger

 

[Naomi25]

My point was that you and others are always whining about Christians who hold to the Rapture are trying to avoid trials and testings. But the Tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not trials and testing for the believer. It is a time of wrath against unbelieving Israel and an unbelieving world.

Big difference.

Stranger

Actually, I would contend that the "wrath" that the bible speaks of Christians avoiding, particularly in the end times, is always spoken of in the context of salvation/damnation. It is not a matter of 'trials and tribulations' on earth, but of wrath of final judgement.


Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. -John 3:36

Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. -Romans 5:9

and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. -1 Thessalonians 1:10

For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. -1 Thessalonians 5:9–10

 

[Naomi25]

November 13, 354 - August 28, 430
4. Amillenniallism from Augustine to Modern Times

Premil was the dominate belief before Catholicism denied it.

What is historic premillennialism?

The History of the Pre-trib Rapture

It is quite clear pre-millennial dominated Christian beliefs in the early church. That a millennialism was a latecomer.

Actually, there is decent historical evidence that the Amillennial view existed side by side with the Premillennial one in the early Church, maybe not in the same numbers, but there non-the-less. And was, in particular, dominant from the 5th century to the 16th one. And the Premillennial view that is in question here is not the Dispensational one.

Why the Early Church Finally Rejected Premillennialism | Monergism

The problem was it conflicted with growing Catholic claims that they were now Israel and they would rule the earth for Christ.

But when the back of Catholic dominion is broken pre-millennial came back to the churches.

You have to remember that during the early church on doctrines and beliefs were developing and evolving.

Equating Amillennialism with Catholicsm. Sure, sure. Except...if only that in itself would prove a doctrine wrong! If only the Catholic Church didn't believe in the Trinity, or Christ's sacrifice for sin on the cross, or his being the Son of God!
As is it, you might not like that Amillennialism is something we 'share' with the Catholic Church...but it doesn't make it incorrect.

Pre-tribulation is solidly in the Bible. A millennialism cannot be found.

Again, nothing but opinion without scriptural evidence backing it up.

Other beliefs, such as mid-trib and pre-wrath are fading away.

Apostasy also affects acceptance. Liberal heavy apostate denominations push amillennialism and Calvinism because they allow for easy believeism. But such thinking opens the door for all kind of false beliefs.

Do you see churches that believe in pre-tribulation and secure Arminianism accepting such as LGBT?

Really? You're going there? Amillennialism leads to accepting liberalism, homosexuality within the church? Why don't you just say that "Amillennialism leads to the Dark Side"? Anger leads to hate, hate leads to fear, and fear leads to the dark side? I don't know how it went, but the progression of thought is equally irrational. Every Church I know that teaches Amillennialism is staunchly conservative.
I agree that liberalism leads to other errors and sinful inclusions within the Church, but by no means does Amillennial interpretation lead us to liberalism, and that is a heavy, nasty charge that you are unable to back up. And I find it a curious one. You would accuse us of dismissing scripture so we may accept whatever we choose...'easy believism'....and yet...you never back up your doctrines, your opinions with the Word of God. To me, that shows either a lack of respect for Gods word; where you place your own opinion higher than his word and therefore see no need to include it, or an inability to back your opinion with God's word. Either way, it does not do much good for your argument.

 

[Mayflower]

I find it curious after the seven churches are addressed in the beginning of Revelation, they are not spoken of again after chapter 3. Could this be the raptured church? To the church of Philadelphia, their message includes being kept from the hour of testing.

 

[CoreIssue]

I find it curious after the seven churches are addressed in the beginning of Revelation, they are not spoken of again after chapter 3. Could this be the raptured church? To the church of Philadelphia, their message includes being kept from the hour of testing.

John wrote warnings to those contemporary churches, but they were also prophetic in that they represented the seven euros or stages of the church age.

Today aspects of the first five churches are present in churches. Philadelphia are those believers who will be rapture. The seventh church coexists with Philadelphia and will be the apostate churches that will be spit out into the Tribulation Period.

Immediately after the church versus the seven lampstands of the churches are gone because the rapture has occurred.

Indeed, not a single church or living Christian is mentioned in Revelation thereafter because the rapture has occurred and the church is gone from the earth.

 

[farouk]

I find it curious after the seven churches are addressed in the beginning of Revelation, they are not spoken of again after chapter 3. Could this be the raptured church? To the church of Philadelphia, their message includes being kept from the hour of testing.

I think the rapture is strongly implied in Revelation 22.

Probably John goes on to speak of other topics than the 7 churches of Asia in the middle and later chapters of Revelation.