Premil vs Amil

[CoreIssue]

Augustine is, then, the first theologian of solid influence who adopted amillennialism.

November 13, 354 - August 28, 430
4. Amillenniallism from Augustine to Modern Times

Premil was the dominate belief before Catholicism denied it.

Historic premillennialism was held by a large majority of Christians during the first three centuries of the Christian era. Many of the church fathers such as Ireneaus, Papias, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Hippolytus, and others taught that there would be a visible kingdom of God upon the earth after the return of Christ. Historic premillennialism taught that the Antichrist would appear on earth and the seven-year tribulation would begin. Next would be the rapture, and then Jesus and His church would return to earth to rule for a thousand years. The faithful spend eternity in the New Jerusalem.

What is historic premillennialism?

The History of the Pre-trib Rapture

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373).

The early Christian writer and poet, Ephraem the Syrian, (who lived from A.D. 306 to 373) was a major theologian of the early Byzantine Eastern Church.

It is quite clear pre-millennial dominated Christian beliefs in the early church. That a millennialism was a latecomer.

The problem was it conflicted with growing Catholic claims that they were now Israel and they would rule the earth for Christ.

But when the back of Catholic dominion is broken pre-millennial came back to the churches.

You have to remember that during the early church on doctrines and beliefs were developing and evolving.

Pre-tribulation is solidly in the Bible. A millennialism cannot be found.

Other beliefs, such as mid-trib and pre-wrath are fading away.

Apostasy also affects acceptance. Liberal heavy apostate denominations push amillennialism and Calvinism because they allow for easy believeism. But such thinking opens the door for all kind of false beliefs.

Do you see churches that believe in pre-tribulation and secure Arminianism accepting such as LGBT?

 

[Dave L]

November 13, 354 - August 28, 430
4. Amillenniallism from Augustine to Modern Times

Premil was the dominate belief before Catholicism denied it.


What is historic premillennialism?

The History of the Pre-trib Rapture



It is quite clear pre-millennial dominated Christian beliefs in the early church. That a millennialism was a latecomer.

The problem was it conflicted with growing Catholic claims that they were now Israel and they would rule the earth for Christ.

But when the back of Catholic dominion is broken pre-millennial came back to the churches.

You have to remember that during the early church on doctrines and beliefs were developing and evolving.

Pre-tribulation is solidly in the Bible. A millennialism cannot be found.

Other beliefs, such as mid-trib and pre-wrath are fading away.

Apostasy also affects acceptance. Liberal heavy apostate denominations push amillennialism and Calvinism because they allow for easy believeism. But such thinking opens the door for all kind of false beliefs.

Do you see churches that believe in pre-tribulation and secure Arminianism accepting such as LGBT?

This is a lopsided view according to your personal view. A scholarly view would present both views in a neutral fashion with documentation.

 

[CoreIssue]

This is a lopsided view according to your personal view. A scholarly view would present both views in a neutral fashion with documentation.

What's lopsided by showing the Catholic origins of amillennialism and how it was a latecomer to theology, based on Catholic demands.

As far as biblical documentation, there is no support for amillennialism.

You think there is, posted it. But not your normal post verse, declare it figurative, and then invent what you want it to say.

 

[bbyrd009]

"vs" tells one all they need to know, see

 

[CoreIssue]

"vs" tells one all they need to know, see

It tells you one side is wrong, maybe both.

 

[Keraz]

It tells you one side is wrong, maybe both.

Both. Or the many views and weird ideas of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, are all wrong.
Why can't people realize that we have work for God to do here, and we must pass thru trials and testing before Jesus Returns.

The Bible never does say that the Lord will take His people to live in heaven, why believe it? It does say that provided we stay firmly in trusting Him, He will protect us thru all that must happen, but we will face persecution and may have to die for our faith. As many have before now and will in the future.
If you avoid trials and testing, then you are not a true child of God. Hebrews 12:7-8

 

[CoreIssue]

Both. Or the many views and weird ideas of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, are all wrong.
Why can't people realize that we have work for God to do here, and we must pass thru trials and testing before Jesus Returns.

The Bible never does say that the Lord will take His people to live in heaven, why believe it? It does say that provided we stay firmly in trusting Him, He will protect us thru all that must happen, but we will face persecution and may have to die for our faith. As many have before now and will in the future.
If you avoid trials and testing, then you are not a true child of God. Hebrews 12:7-8

Again you show your ignorance.

Rapture is currently in the Bible and amillennialism denies a rapture.

 

[Enoch111]

This is a lopsided view according to your personal view. A scholarly view would present both views in a neutral fashion with documentation.

Neutrality is the last thing one needs in discussing this.

Why are so many dead set against a Premillennial Pretribulation Rapture? Simply because they do not wish to have their preconceptions and false notions challenged by Scripture. Indeed they prefer to ignore or reinterpret Scripture and manufacture fantasies such as Amillennialism. Some even deny that all the saints who passed on are in Heaven, and that at the Rapture all the saints will be taken to Heaven.

 

[Keraz]

Why are so many dead set against a Premillennial Pretribulation Rapture? Simply because they do not wish to have their preconceptions and false notions challenged by Scripture. Indeed they prefer to ignore or reinterpret Scripture and manufacture fantasies such as Amillennialism. Some even deny that all the saints who passed on are in Heaven, and that at the Rapture all the saints will be taken to Heaven.

I am dead set against the fantasy of the 'rapture to heaven'. I ignore or re-interpret no scripture, I just believe the straightforward Words of Jesus.
If people think Jesus didn't mean what He said, then what else should we discard?

John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…

Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.

John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.

A plain statement that also applies forever.


John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….

Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth. Revelation 21:1-4


John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.

Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians. Remember: we pray for God’s Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven and it will, with the New Jerusalem.


Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.

This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11 As the 2 Witnesses will be.

 

[Enoch111]

I just believe the straightforward Words of Jesus.

Which need to be understood in their context. So why don't you tell us if the Lord Jesus Christ told Stephen "No way am I going to receive your spirit into Heaven"?

 

[Keraz]

Which need to be understood in their context. So why don't you tell us if the Lord Jesus Christ told Stephen "No way am I going to receive your spirit into Heaven"?

This comment is sheer foolishness.
The context of all of the quotes in #9 proves their veracity and applicability to us.

The deception of the 'rapture to heaven' doctrine, leads people to make comments that are totally unsupportable.

 

[Stranger]

Both. Or the many views and weird ideas of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, are all wrong.
Why can't people realize that we have work for God to do here, and we must pass thru trials and testing before Jesus Returns.

The Bible never does say that the Lord will take His people to live in heaven, why believe it? It does say that provided we stay firmly in trusting Him, He will protect us thru all that must happen, but we will face persecution and may have to die for our faith. As many have before now and will in the future.
If you avoid trials and testing, then you are not a true child of God. Hebrews 12:7-8

How can a believer avoid a trial and testing from God? Ridiculous.

The trial of the Tribulation is not just a trial and testing but the wrath of God. And every believer has every reason to want to avoid the wrath of God.

Stranger

 

[Blueberry]

The Bible never does say that the Lord will take His people to live in heaven, why believe it?

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."
John 14:2,3 NIV

 

[Dave L]

Neutrality is the last thing one needs in discussing this.

Why are so many dead set against a Premillennial Pretribulation Rapture? Simply because they do not wish to have their preconceptions and false notions challenged by Scripture. Indeed they prefer to ignore or reinterpret Scripture and manufacture fantasies such as Amillennialism. Some even deny that all the saints who passed on are in Heaven, and that at the Rapture all the saints will be taken to Heaven.

You need to present a fair unbiased view, rare today, of both sides if you want to compare them. And let the reader decide.

 

[Keraz]

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."
John 14:2,3 NIV

Why quote verses that do not prove your belief?
John 14:1-3 never say the Church will be taken to heaven, people just like to think it does, but from many other scriptures, we know it refers to living with Jesus on earth, during the Millennium. Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 5:9-10

 

[Blueberry]

Why quote verses that do not prove your belief?
John 14:1-3 never say the Church will be taken to heaven, people just like to think it does, but from many other scriptures, we know it refers to living with Jesus on earth, during the Millennium. Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 5:9-10

Who is "we"? You say 'we' and 'us' a lot.

So Jesus went into the future so He can come again and take us to the future? Or is it another physical dimension?

 

[Keraz]

How can a believer avoid a trial and testing from God? Ridiculous.

The trial of the Tribulation is not just a trial and testing but the wrath of God. And every believer has every reason to want to avoid the wrath of God.

Stranger

You are the avoider!
Don't you read Revelation 7:9-14? Its plainly stated that God's saints have passed thru great tribulation. They have washed their clothes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. That is: that vast multitude are people who have proved their faith in Jesus through the time of God's wrath.

However, I do believe that the 'tribulation' referred to in Rev 7, is the Sixth Seal event, not the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, that comes later.
Revelation 12:6-17 tells us what will happen to those Christians during the GT. One thing is for sure, they do not sit in heaven then, or for any other time.

 

[Keraz]

Who is "we"? You say 'we' and 'us' a lot.

So Jesus went into the future so He can come again and take us to the future? Or is it another physical dimension?

'We', are people who refute the 'rapture to heaven' theory and who believe what God actually does plan for His people.
We are Christians, just as you are, but who refuse to be sucked in with fables and deceptions, as Paul warns us will happen. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

I suggest that you rethink you belief of a 'rapture', because it is wrong and may lead you to make bad decisions later.

 

[Blueberry]

So Jesus is somewhere preparing a place for 'us' during the Millennium now?

 

[Blueberry]

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."
John 14:2,3 NIV

Why quote verses that do not prove your belief?
John 14:1-3 never say the Church will be taken to heaven, people just like to think it does, but from many other scriptures, we know it refers to living with Jesus on earth, during the Millennium. Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 5:9-10

I never said anything about a rapture, but I do get that this is a thread about "Premill vs Amill".

I am serious. Where is "there" in John 14:2,3? Another place? Another time?

Because if it is here on Earth, but in the future (Millennium), then I do not understand Jesus saying that he is going "there" now. I do know that God is not bound by time constraints. I recall discussing with you something about Jerusalem in the past and I recall you saying something to the effect that it did not actually exist or something like that? I honestly forget. I do remember you have some very fascinating ideas about all of that.

If He is there (and there is here) now preparing for then, then it has to be another dimension or else it would be presently visible, right? He said his Father's house, but that is not on Earth is it? Not now, not in the Millennium.

If I am being a sucker now then I have already made at least one bad decision, but I understand what you implied to be about accepting the Antichrist as Jesus. Sage advice.

Looking at the context, it also seems odd to me to refer to 'here' (Jerusalem) as 'there' when speaking to His audience. When it would be about a change in time but not location.

I do believe that people will endure, or be saved in, the Tribulation and then enter into the Millennial reign. Those people will be where Jesus is. But people will occupy the entire Earth and will sojourn to Jerusalem annually, yes? So in one very real sense not all will be "where I am".

I do not necessarily read a rapture into the above verses. I always read it as Jesus greeting me upon death in the afterlife. I understood it to be taking me where the Father (Heaven) is since it would be "in his Father's house"?

These "rooms" seem to already exist. I had a silly sentimental notion that He might be customizing one uniquely just for me. Was I a sucker about that too?