I'm trying to get you to think.
Jesus has dominion over the nations and rules over them the same way God always has because He has all power and authority in heaven and earth (Matt 28:18). Let me know if there is anything confusing about that.
Premillennialism contradicts scripture (1 Corinthians 15:50-54) by having mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Where in the Bible does it say that Christ’s kingship, supreme authority, sovereign power, and kingly rule can only happens when there is an end to evil, death and suffering, when all governments submit to His authority (instead of operating independently or in opposition to biblical principles) and there is universal recognition of His kingship?
This is your own invented human reasoning. It is not based on any solid Scripture (including Revelation 20). It is all your imaginations.
This might explain why you reject Jesus being God.
I have repeatedly done that and you have repeatedly avoid it.
You obviously do not even get what being at the right hand of majesty means. It means to carry heaven's authority. It has been delegated to Him. He exercises all power! "All power" means that He reigns over all creation as God and causes and permits everything that happens. He is ruling over everything and everyone (there is nothing that is not under His sovereign control). How much more power does He need to possess to exercise full authority than this? Christ testifies in Rev 3:7 that He "openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth."
He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. Romans 13:1: “Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.”
Many do not seem to understand the whole concept of cause and permit. Just because God permits evil does not mean He is not sovereign. He uses it ultimately for His glory. So allowing evil does not infringe upon His holy nature. The reality is, Christ’s enemies are all under His feet and His rules upon majesty on high. Being under His feet means under His sovereign control. We all know that Christ carries that loft position and no one will ever be able to unseat Him.
Premils are always talking about the power, ability and influence of Satan. They want to talk about how strong he is and what he is accomplishing. They try their best to give him access to heaven, even though he has been cast out of it forever. In doing so, they dethrone Christ from His sovereign role as king and ruler of this globe.
Colossians 1:15-17 addresses the great providential reign of Christ over all creation. Stating, Christ, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
This is completely comprehensive. Christ is shown to be the ruler of all dominion and power. He is a sovereign God today. Satan is submitted to His authority. Christ is king over all the earth. Can I remind you He reigns over His enemies now as sovereign king? With the Premillennial reasoning, they divest Christ of His rightful power.
Christ is king over all the earth. Can I remind you He reigns over His enemies now as sovereign king?
There are two aspects to the kingship of Christ. The first is the whole sphere of Christ’s providential rule over all creation. Revelation 1:5 reveals that Christ is the Sovereign archon or “Prince (or ruler) of the kings of the earth.” Christ currently rules over His enemies. The second aspect is the whole realm of Christ’s spiritual reign over all His new creation – the blood-bought Church. Revelation 15:3 tells us that He is the “King of saints.” It is only this second domain that is incorporated within the spiritual confines of the kingdom of God.
Paul and Silas had such an effect Jew and Greek in Thessalonica preaching , On the missionary journey of they saw many people come to faith in Christ, both The unbelieving Jews, being very angry, attempted to arrest the Apostles but not finding them, brought Jason and certain of the converts before the rulers of the city, crying, “These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also; Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus” (Acts 17:6-7).
Understanding the difference between these two realms is essential to comprehending the true nature of the kingdom of God. 1 Timothy 1:17 describes Christ as “the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God.”
Psalm 24:7-8 says, “Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.”
The term ‘archon’ or ‘ruler’ is found again in Acts 5:30-31 where Peter is seen addressing the unbelieving Jewish religious leaders. There he declares, “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a archon (or) Prince (or ruler) and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”
There is His divine sovereign kingship over all creation as God, but there is also His Messianic kingship over His people – His elect, both Jew and Gentile, old covenant and new covenant. These do not conflict, but correlate beautifully. He reigns as God and man through this dualistic kingship. It involves His humanity and deity.
Any authority belonging to, or exercised by, the Church must ultimately emanate from the One who bestows it – Jesus Christ.
Address these questions please.
- Do you believe that Christ “is the head of all principality and power” (Colossians 2:10)?
- When are “angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him,” (1 Peter 3:22 says) now or in the age to come?
- When was/does Christ become ruler over the kings of the earth, now only or also in the future (Revelation 1:5)?
- When does Christ reign? After His enemies are subdued or until His enemies are subdued (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)?
- 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 and Ephesians 1:20-23 tells us that Christ “hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet” and Hebrews 1:8 tells us that “thou hast put all things in subjection’ (aorist active indicative) under his feet.” How could anyone therefore deny He is sovereignly reigning now over His enemies now? How could anyone then relate this fulfilment to an alleged future age after the second coming?
- When did/does Christ become the ruler of God’s creation” (Revelation 3:14)?
- Do you believe that Christ currently has “the keys (or authority) of hell and of death” (Revelation 1:18)?
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Jesus holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might. It says, “he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.” This speaks of spiritual power. The key allows Christ to sovereignly open and shut in a way that no man can thwart or override.
He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”
Heaven’s authority is bestowed upon Christ. He is God! Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”
He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Messiah and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as God.
He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Saviour and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as Lord.
1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”
Without a doubt Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.
1 Timothy 6:13-16 says, “I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate (dunastes or ruler, great authority or mighty), the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”
He is going to reveal to mankind, time, and to the natural, what He is now in heaven, the invisible realm and in eternity. He "is (indeed) the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords.”
This all confirms my previous contention: Premil is constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god, Amil has a small devil and a BIG God. In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premils are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Amil, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Amils are always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Amil sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Amil Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Saviour.
If Christ is not already King of kings, then neither is He already Lord of lords. But Revelation 19:14 tell us: "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Prove it. Give me direct answers to my position.
Are you serious here? What did you expect proof would look like? Think about it.
One might argue that Joe Biden is currently in charge of America. To prove it, one would need to provide evidence that Biden selected the cabinet, instituted tariffs, was honored by Saudi Arabia, and was sued over the deportation of criminals.
Understand?
Does Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud answer to Jesus Christ? Does Mohammed bin Salman answer to Jesus Christ? Ayatollah Ali Khamenei? Volodymyr Zelenskyy? Vladimir Putin?
Prove it. Show your work. And prove to me that the world leaders alive today are serving Jesus Christ.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 1:1-3, 2:8-10 says, “God … Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things … Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … Thou hast put [Gr. hupotassō or subordinated or submitted] all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all [Gr. hupotassō or subordinated or submitted] in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under [Gr. anupotaktos or not made subject, unsubjected] him. But now we see not yet all things put under [Gr. hupotassō or subordinated or submitted] him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.”
There it is! He is the supreme power. He is the government. He carries all authority. This is a present ongoing reality. It is a current arrangement. Whilst new enemies are being born every day, while new wicked regimes continually arise, Christ determines what He allows and what He doesn’t. There is nothing that is not under Him. The world is NOT out of control. God has a plan and that plan will be fulfilled, when God sees fit.
Premillennialists highlight the phrase “now we see not yet all things put under him.” They present it as evidence that Christ is not ruling at the moment. But they (1) fail to interpret what this is actually saying and they (2) fail to quote all the surrounding evidence as context. This phrase is telling us: there are still enemies to be born and subjugated. There are still leaders and kingdoms to fall. The process of subjugation is ongoing to the second coming.
The sovereign king reigns majestic, supreme and unchallenged in His power and authority, ruling over all creation (seen and unseen) and over all things (good and evil). Whilst new enemies are being born every day, while new wicked regimes continually arise, Christ determines what He allows and what He doesn’t. There is nothing that is not under Him. The world is definitely not out of control. God has a plan and that plan will be fulfilled, as God sees fit.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Try harder. What does it matter?
Prove it. Show me. If someone claims that the sun rises in the west, I can easily prove them wrong. The next morning when we wake up we face east to see the sun. Even a fourth grader can see that Jesus doesn't have dominion over the earth.
Ephesians 1:20-23 tells us that God hath “raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And ‘hath put’ [Gr. hupotassō or subordinated or submitted] all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”
Here is a very important passage that again confirms the absolute authority that Christ now enjoys and reveals the unlimited scope of His current rule. It explicitly illustrates the current sovereign reign of Christ over all His enemies from the “right hand” of majesty on high, until the occasion when He finally makes them His footstool – namely His one final future all-consummating Coming. God hath now “put all things (not some) under his feet.” And so as to leave no ambiguity to the reader, we find Paul explaining the fact that Christ’s rule includes both the whole natural and spiritual realm: “all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.”
The phrase “set (kathizō) him at his own right hand” literally reads in the original “seated him at his own right hand.” Many miss the enormity of this language. In ancient times, when a monarch was seated upon their throne it confirmed their formal investiture with regal power. It also often meant that their enemies had been conquered and they were now ruling.
He is risen and He is reigning! This is happening now! Check out the actual original text and check out the tense.
Every king has had rebellious unsubmitted citizens under them; but that did not negate the veracity, power and influence of their kingship. What is more, you ignore key elements of the inspired text in your attempt to strip Christ of His authority.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 15:27-28 teaches: “For ‘he hath put’ [Gr. hupotassō or subordinated or submitted] all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under [Gr. hupotassō or subordinated or submitted] him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put [Gr. hupotassō or subordinated or submitted] all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued [Gr. hupotassō or subordinated or submitted] unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him, that put all things under [Gr. hupotassō or subordinated or submitted] him, that God may be all in all.”
We can see from the grammatical tense that this is written in the present active particle tense, which proves this is happening now. There are still obviously enemies to be born and subjugated. There are enemies currently being subdued. That is not hard to get your head round. There are still leaders and kingdoms to fall, but they are all on borrowed time. It is only a matter before each earthly kingdom crumbles. But the sovereign king reigns unchallenged in His power and authority ruling over all creation (seen and unseen) and over all things (good and evil). What He causes happens, what He allows happens. Nothing more and nothing less. This is proof that Christ is indeed reigning now over all (including His enemies). When the second coming arrives, He will final subdue everything to Himself.
New enemies are rising and being subject to Him every day. But we see the final overthrow of all rebellion at the second coming (Revelation 11:15 and 1 Corinthians 15:22-24). They are all finally "put down" and "subdued" when He comes. His sovereign control over His enemies simply means He is in control of His enemies. Nothing happens without His permission. He reigns as God and man now. He is at the right hand of authority and hold all power in heaven and on earth. Premil restarts the great battle between light and darkness, Christ and Satan, life and death, again in their alleged future millennium when they repopulate their corrupt new earth with countless wicked, sin, death, disease, debt, divorce, animal sacrifices and Satan.
Paul, again, repeats the great truth that God “hath put all things under his feet” as He reigns in majestic glory upon high. The reign described here is aorist active indicative, meaning it is ongoing. He also shows, whilst Christ is reigning over His enemies as Lord and God, they will NOT be made His footstool, subdued and put down until the second coming.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
You are reinforcing my thesis, which I appreciate! Again, the reader will see how you sidestep the sacred text at will. You are out of your depth.
Your doctrine is in tatters.
Ephesians 1:17-21, “the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.”
This passage confirms the absolute authority that Christ now enjoys and reveals the unlimited scope of His current rule. It explicitly illustrates the current sovereign reign of Christ over all His enemies from the “right hand” of majesty on high.
Philippians 2:9 says, “wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name.”
He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”
1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”
Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds.
Heaven’s authority is bestowed upon Christ. He is God! Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”
He is risen and He is reigning! He is ruling over everything! This is happening right now! Check out the actual original text and check out the tenses involved. Christ’s universal rule, which is found in His divine character, exercises supreme authority over everything and everyone that exists. This dominion is seen in His sovereign dealing with mankind, whether it is with an individual person or with accumulation of nations – all are subject to his controlling power and ultimate influence. Such authority could be justly described as Christ’s providential kingship.
Colossians 1:15-17 addresses the great sovereign reign of Christ over all creation. Stating, Christ, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
This is completely comprehensive. Christ is shown to be the ruler of all dominion and power. He is a sovereign God today. Satan is submitted to His authority. Christ is king over all the earth. Can I remind you He reigns over His enemies now as sovereign king? With the Premillennial reasoning they divest Christ of His rightful power.
These passages couldn’t be stronger in outlining where supreme authority lies today. Christ sovereignly reigns in kingly power over all creation.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
That was never in doubt. And I said that already. You claim that Jesus is exercising power, which is a different question altogether. When Jesus exercises power, this is something that can be seen, felt, and experienced.
This was important to John the Apostle, which is why the opening remarks of his first epistle begin with, "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete."
If Jesus has dominion over all the earth, then we would see it, hear it, feel it, and touch it. However, we don't, because while his father has given him all authority, he has not yet exercised that authority.
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