Premillennialism contradicts scripture (1 Corinthians 15:50-54) by having mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.

[CadyandZoe]

Again, text after text remains unaddressed above. That is a fact. It is there for all to see.

I addressed the texts, stating they didn't support your case. I agree they show nothing about people mourning the loss of Jesus.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You are fighting with the sacred text.

How so?

It is very clear that everything and everyone is under His sovereign feet.

If it is clear, then show me.

They are under His supreme control.

Show me. Prove to me that Jesus is ruling over all rulers and authorities. He isn't. And everyone can see it for themselves.

Permitting man to be, do and say evil does not in any way negate Christ's current kingship. It does not negate His divine authority. It does not negate His sovereign power. He allows evil and uses it for His ultimate glory. There would have been no cross if there had never been a Fall. The greatest evil that was ever done - nailing God to a tree- ended up the greatest blessing that ever happened in history.

You are blind to His Lordship. You are blind to His kingship. You are blind to His rule over all.

You constantly dethrone Christ and exalt Satan in your teaching bringing shame on the name of our sovereign king.

A clear real-world example of Jesus not actively ruling over the earth in a visible and uncontested way is the persistence of injustice, war, and rebellion against God’s authority. If Jesus were currently exercising His full earthly reign, we would expect:

• All governments to submit to His authority instead of operating independently or in opposition to biblical principles.
• An end to evil and suffering—yet we still see wars, corruption, and widespread immorality.
• Universal recognition of His kingship—but today, many still reject or ignore Him.

 

[covenantee]

We are discussing the Lord's prayer and specifically the statement, "may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." This statement falls within a broader category focused on the future.

‘Our Father who is in heaven,Hallowed be Your name.Your kingdom come.Your will be done,On earth as it is in heaven.

No it doesn't. You ignored verse 13.

Matthew 6
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Present tense. Reality when written.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

For me, it isn't simply a matter of judgment. It is also a matter of how Jesus thought about it. He taught his disciples to pray, "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." When I look around, I don't see God's will being done on earth.

We can also understand the situation from God's perspective in the narrative of Israel's cry for a king to rule over them. The Israelites, dissatisfied with being led by judges, approached the prophet Samuel and demanded a king to govern them like other nations (1 Samuel 8:5). Their request was driven by insecurity and a desire for stability, but it also revealed a rejection of God's direct rule. I believe God said something like, "They aren't rejecting you, they are rejecting me."

In 1 Samuel 8:7, God tells Samuel:

"Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king."

This statement is powerful because it reveals the deeper issue behind Israel's request for a king. While they framed it as a practical need for leadership, God saw it as a rejection of His direct rule over them. Rather than trusting Him as their sovereign ruler, they wanted to follow the pattern of the surrounding nations, relying on human governance instead of divine guidance.

God’s sovereignty over Israel—and over all creation—was never diminished, even after Saul became king. The monarchy did not replace or override God's rule; rather, it functioned within His sovereign plan.

Even though Israel insisted on having a human king, God remained the ultimate authority, guiding events according to His will. He allowed Saul to reign, but He also anointed and removed kings based on their faithfulness (as seen later with David's rise and Saul's downfall). Proverbs 21:1 reinforces this idea: "The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord; He directs it like a watercourse wherever He pleases."

Just as God’s sovereignty over Israel was never diminished despite the establishment of a human monarchy, Jesus' sovereignty over all creation has always been absolute, even in His earthly ministry. When Jesus returns, His sovereignty will be fully realized in a way that is visible and undeniable to all. While He is already sovereign over all creation, His second advent marks the moment when He will actively exercise His rule over the earth. Every knee shall bow; All opposition will be subdued; His justice and peace will be fully established. So, while His sovereignty has never been diminished, its complete, visible realization will come when He returns to reign over the nations.

The premillennial perspective holds that Jesus' return will precede a literal millennial reign, during which He will establish His kingdom on earth before the final judgment.

When He returns, He will have His enemies cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" for "everlasting punishment" (Matthew 25:31-46).

 

[WPM]

You seem unwilling to distinguish between his declared sovereignty and his realized sovereignty.

We are discussing the Lord's prayer and specifically the statement, "may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." This statement falls within a broader category focused on the future.

‘Our Father who is in heaven,​

Hallowed be Your name.​

Your kingdom come.​

Your will be done,​

On earth as it is in heaven.​

The final line must convey crucial information regarding the overall theme, which is the establishment of God's kingdom and the vindication of His name. Our exegesis is derived from Old Testament passages, such as Ezekiel 36, where God talks explicitly about how He will vindicate His name.

The phrase "may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" (Matthew 6:10) acknowledges a contrast between heaven—where God's will is perfectly realized—and earth, where human sin and rebellion often hinder His perfect purpose. To repeat myself, it reflects the tension of living in a world where God is ultimately sovereign, yet His direct rule is not yet fully realized—something that awaits Christ’s return. In essence, this prayer looks forward to the culmination of His kingdom, when righteousness, peace, and justice will reign without opposition.

In Ezekiel 36:22-23, God declares: "It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name... Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes."

This passage speaks to God restoring His people not because of their merit, but to uphold His reputation among the nations. Similarly, the Lord’s Prayer recognizes that God’s name is sacred and calls for its rightful honor to be restored.

This theme is a prediction of a future reality, not a current reality.

Once again, you totally avoided everything that I said. That is your modus operandi. It is impossible engaging with you.

 

[WPM]

I addressed the texts, stating they didn't support your case. I agree they show nothing about people mourning the loss of Jesus.

LOL. That is typical for you. No Scripture is relevant in your estimation. You just dismiss text after text at will. You are only exposing your own beliefs.

You do more to promote Amil than Amils.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you see Jesus' active role over the nations directly and tangibly?

Based on this definition of ruling, God has never ruled over the earth since Adam and Eve sinned. What is the point of basically saying that Jesus isn't a dictator? God has never ruled that way.

 

[WPM]

How so?

If it is clear, then show me.

Show me. Prove to me that Jesus is ruling over all rulers and authorities. He isn't. And everyone can see it for themselves.

A clear real-world example of Jesus not actively ruling over the earth in a visible and uncontested way is the persistence of injustice, war, and rebellion against God’s authority. If Jesus were currently exercising His full earthly reign, we would expect:

• All governments to submit to His authority instead of operating independently or in opposition to biblical principles.
• An end to evil and suffering—yet we still see wars, corruption, and widespread immorality.
• Universal recognition of His kingship—but today, many still reject or ignore Him.

Contrary to what you believe: Jesus is God. He is in sovereign control. What He allows, happens. What He disallows, does not happen. Nothing happens without His permission. He reigns as God and man now. He is at the right hand of authority and hold all power in heaven and on earth.

Jesus testified after His resurrection: “All power [or authority] is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Jesus rules and reigns today over all creation. There is nothing that is not under His feet. What He says goes! This is biblical bedrock! This is a foundational Christian truth.

I mean, how much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?

As John Piper says: "God is in control of all things and rules over all things. He has power and authority over nature, earthly kings, history, angels, and demons. Even Satan himself has to ask God’s permission before he can act (Psalm 103:19). That’s what being sovereign means. It means being the ultimate source of all power, authority, and everything that exists. Only God can make those claims; therefore, it’s God’s sovereignty that makes Him superior to all other gods and makes Him, and Him alone, worthy of worship."

Premils are often so obsessed with what Satan is doing and his evil that they miss what God is doing. None of the evil on the earth or the folly of man dilutes the sovereign authority of Christ ruling and reigning over all mankind. They can belittle the supreme authority of Christ all they wish but it does not diminish it in any way. Scripture constantly depicts the magnificence, greatness and mighty power of Christ sitting at the right hand of Majesty ruling at the place of sovereign authority upon high. He holds all heaven’s power. He is King of kings. He is Lord of lords.

Repeated Scripture shows that Christ is king right now. He is reigning in majesty upon high since His coronation! He is risen from the dead and He is Lord. All power and authority belong to Him today. Premil teaching causes many to dethrone Christ from His sovereign place reigning over His enemies today. They present a BIG-devil and small-jesus theology. Their theology tries to force Christ to abdicate His sovereign throne at the right hand of majesty on high. Nothing could be more foolish and ignorant.

Benson in his commentary paraphrases this, saying: “Thy providence, O Lord, superintends all events; all that happens comes to pass through thy permission or appointment. It is not in man to hinder that which has been once resolved on in thy decrees.”

He concludes: “We are under God’s government, and at his disposal, and have continual need of His direction, and of the influence of His grace, without which we shall certainly err from the right way, and shall neither choose nor perform what is truly and lastingly good, and for our happiness.”

 

[WPM]

How so?

If it is clear, then show me.

Show me. Prove to me that Jesus is ruling over all rulers and authorities. He isn't. And everyone can see it for themselves.

A clear real-world example of Jesus not actively ruling over the earth in a visible and uncontested way is the persistence of injustice, war, and rebellion against God’s authority. If Jesus were currently exercising His full earthly reign, we would expect:

• All governments to submit to His authority instead of operating independently or in opposition to biblical principles.
• An end to evil and suffering—yet we still see wars, corruption, and widespread immorality.
• Universal recognition of His kingship—but today, many still reject or ignore Him.

You make it up as you go to support your false teaching.

Where in the Bible does it say that Christ’s kingship, supreme authority, sovereign power, and kingly rule can only happens when there is an end to evil, death and suffering, when all governments submit to His authority (instead of operating independently or in opposition to biblical principles) and there is universal recognition of His kingship?

This is your own invented human reasoning. It is not based on any solid Scripture (including Revelation 20). It is all your imaginations.

This might explain why you reject Jesus being God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

If Paul for a split second had believed that his kinsmen's flesh was of any salvific efficacy, he would have been dancing for joy.

Okay, but did I say any of them were saved? Did Paul say they were saved? What belongs to them is a different question from what they receive.

Instead, "... I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could [a]wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen..." (Romans 9:2-3)

His kinsmen's adoption as sons did not immunize them against committing sin and suffering its dire consequences. Numbers 25:9

Never said it did.

Believers in Christ irrespective of their flesh are adopted.

Of course.

The flesh profiteth nothing.

Again, according to Paul, the flesh is the central, critical aspect of the question at hand. God promised them eternal life. To understand Paul's premise, we must accept the doctrine of God's sovereign choice. That is where Paul begins, and that is where we need to begin also.

You are oblivious to the two essential prerequisites without which there would not have been an Isaac.

They were the faith and obedience of his father Abraham.

It isn't fair to conclude that I am oblivious to such things. But if need be, I will remind us that the sacrifice of Isaac was a test of Abraham's faith, when he trusted God's promise that if he should strike the boy, God could resurrect him from the dead.

But let's return to the critical, essential stipulations that undergird Paul's argument: salvation does not depend on the person who wills or the person who runs, but on God's choice. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were all God's chosen ones. He describes Isaac as the child of promise. Why does Paul bring this up?

His central focus is on a promise that God made to Jacob and his descendants. Paul first acknowledges God's promise to Israel, that salvation belongs to them, then he qualifies that promise by creating the category "child of promise." God made a promise to the descendants of Jacob, but not all of his descendants are "children of promise."

Paul argues that although God promised salvation to Jacob's descendants, He reserves the right to save whomever He wants to save. Although salvation belongs to them, not all of them will be saved. Some of them are children of promise, while others are not.

That said, I believe we make a mistake if we take Paul's argument too far. We could argue that one Gentile may be considered a child of promise while another is not, and that is true. However, that's not the point Paul is making in Romans 9 through 11. His main focus is on the promise God made to Jacob and his descendants, as well as their eventual restoration and reconciliation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

When He returns, He will have His enemies cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" for "everlasting punishment" (Matthew 25:31-46).

Not immediately. God wishes to vindicate his name before the nations and Israel. This will take place during the Millennial period.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not immediately. God wishes to vindicate his name before the nations and Israel. This will take place during the Millennial period.

Show me where that is indicated in Matthew 25:31-46. Good luck.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Once again, you totally avoided everything that I said. That is your modus operandi. It is impossible engaging with you.

It's not impossible to engage with me. And I didn't avoid what you said. You often add material that isn't relevant to the issue. I skip over that.

 

[CadyandZoe]

LOL. That is typical for you. No Scripture is relevant in your estimation.

And it is up to you to provide verses that support your position. Try that.

You just dismiss text after text at will.

I dismiss the texts that don't support your assertion.

You are only exposing your own beliefs.

We all do that. What else is new? You quoted several verses, highlighted them in red as if to say, "See there? These all say that people mourned over Jesus when he died." I look at them and see that none of them say what you claim they say.

 

[WPM]

It's not impossible to engage with me. And I didn't avoid what you said. You often add material that isn't relevant to the issue. I skip over that.

Yea right! More excuses for your avoidance. That is how Premils operate here. You are a prime example. The Word of God is the enemy of your doctrine.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Show me where that is indicated in Matthew 25:31-46. Good luck.

Why? Why do you get to choose which verses I must use to support my case?

Look at those verses again and show me where it says that the sheep/goat judgment takes place immediately when Jesus returns. It says nothing about timing. What Jesus said would be true whether the judgment took place on day one or a thousand years later.

You are assuming something that isn't clearly stated or even implied.

Extra credit: Ever wonder why Jesus mentions "nations"? If what you are saying is true, some of the sheep and goats would be Jews would they not? And yet they are absent from his discussion, aren't they?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yea right! More excuses for your avoidance. That is how Premils operate here. You are a prime example. The Word of God is the enemy of your doctrine.

Why do you prefer a LARP rather than a good conversation?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Based on this definition of ruling, God has never ruled over the earth since Adam and Eve sinned. What is the point of basically saying that Jesus isn't a dictator? God has never ruled that way.

Why does this matter to my question? What other definition of ruling is there? Does Jesus have dominion over the nations or not? Does he actually rule over them or is this "ruling" only real in your mind?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Contrary to what you believe: Jesus is God. He is in sovereign control. What He allows, happens. What He disallows, does not happen. Nothing happens without His permission. He reigns as God and man now. He is at the right hand of authority and hold all power in heaven and on earth.

Jesus testified after His resurrection: “All power [or authority] is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Jesus rules and reigns today over all creation. There is nothing that is not under His feet. What He says goes! This is biblical bedrock! This is a foundational Christian truth.

I mean, how much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?

Exactly! He seems to think that sovereignty equates to controlling everything like a puppet master. But, that's not what sovereignty means. If He alone decides what can or cannot happen, that is sovereignty. And, that's exactly the case for Jesus. Nothing can happen without His permission. And, He certainly is often directly involved in what is happening on the earth by way of the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us and working through us to deliver many people from Satan's kingdom of darkness.

Premils are often so obsessed with what Satan is doing and his evil that they miss what God is doing.

Never is that more obviously the case as when they bring up 1 Peter 5:8 while completely ignoring the verse which follows it.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.

Yes, Satan is a powerful enemy, but the one who is in us is greater than the one who is in the world (1 John 4:4). All we have to do is resist Satan and he must flee from us (James 4:7). Premils do not seem to understand the power and authority that Jesus/God has over the devil and that we, by extension, have over him as well.

 

[WPM]

Why do you prefer a LARP rather than a good conversation?

It is impossible to get you to address Scripture.

Contrary to what you believe: Jesus is God. He is in sovereign control. What He allows, happens. What He disallows, does not happen. Nothing happens without His permission. He reigns as God and man now. He is at the right hand of authority and hold all power in heaven and on earth.

Jesus testified after His resurrection: “All power [or authority] is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Jesus rules and reigns today over all creation. There is nothing that is not under His feet. What He says goes! This is biblical bedrock! This is a foundational Christian truth.

I mean, how much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?

As John Piper says: "God is in control of all things and rules over all things. He has power and authority over nature, earthly kings, history, angels, and demons. Even Satan himself has to ask God’s permission before he can act (Psalm 103:19). That’s what being sovereign means. It means being the ultimate source of all power, authority, and everything that exists. Only God can make those claims; therefore, it’s God’s sovereignty that makes Him superior to all other gods and makes Him, and Him alone, worthy of worship."

Premils are often so obsessed with what Satan is doing and his evil that they miss what God is doing. None of the evil on the earth or the folly of man dilutes the sovereign authority of Christ ruling and reigning over all mankind. They can belittle the supreme authority of Christ all they wish but it does not diminish it in any way. Scripture constantly depicts the magnificence, greatness and mighty power of Christ sitting at the right hand of Majesty ruling at the place of sovereign authority upon high. He holds all heaven’s power. He is King of kings. He is Lord of lords.

Repeated Scripture shows that Christ is king right now. He is reigning in majesty upon high since His coronation! He is risen from the dead and He is Lord. All power and authority belong to Him today. Premil teaching causes many to dethrone Christ from His sovereign place reigning over His enemies today. They present a BIG-devil and small-jesus theology. Their theology tries to force Christ to abdicate His sovereign throne at the right hand of majesty on high. Nothing could be more foolish and ignorant.

Benson in his commentary paraphrases this, saying: “Thy providence, O Lord, superintends all events; all that happens comes to pass through thy permission or appointment. It is not in man to hinder that which has been once resolved on in thy decrees.”

He concludes: “We are under God’s government, and at his disposal, and have continual need of His direction, and of the influence of His grace, without which we shall certainly err from the right way, and shall neither choose nor perform what is truly and lastingly good, and for our happiness.”