Agreed! Talk about twisting God's Word to prove what you've been taught. This is a classic example. He must do that. The Bible forbids his error.
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Whenever any of us - REPEAT - any of us hold to a incorrect doctrine, it will skew our view of scripture
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
@marks = is this correct? Do you believe in Matt ch25 JESUS is speaking of ethnic Jews when HE says "least of these my brethren"
Matthew 24:21-22 KJV
21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Much love!
My questions were:
Who are the sheep?
Why are they gathered separately?
Why are the sheep and goats mixed?
Why are they separated according to their works?
It's sound's like you answer is that Jews and Gentiles are gathered all together, and then sorted out saved from unsaved. But that's only one gathering, it seems you've blurred it all together.
If you care to continue, I'm looking for clear and succinct answers to these questions. You have the Jews being gathered with the Gentiles, and that's not the prophecy.
My suggestion to you is to study these prophecies until you understand these things.
Much love!
The terms “the sheep,” “them on his right hand,” “ye blessed” and “the righteous” are seen to be synonymous in this parable. The wicked on the other hand are simply deemed “the goats,” “them on the left hand” or “ye cursed.” The righteous are seen in Matthew 25:31-45 to “inherit the kingdom” and “life eternal” whereas the wicked are cast “into everlasting fire” and receive “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46). The designations and sentences can only relate to the saved and the unsaved. They could not be clearer. There are no exceptions or other groups additional to these two diametrically opposing groupings.
This is the final separation of the wicked from the redeemed of God. It is the climactic assignment of eternal destinies. All mankind is found embodied in one of these two unique groupings. There are no ‘nearly saved or ‘semi-saved’ people or ‘nearly lost’ or ‘semi-lost’ people on this day. One is either clothed with Christ’s robes of righteousness or eternally saved or he is He is clothed with his own filthy rags of righteousness and eternally lost. No one inherits the kingdom through national identity.
When we examine the judicial sentences which are met out to the sheep and the goats when Jesus returns (in Matthew 25) we see two diametrically opposing verdicts and outcomes. This shows us that they relate to two diametrically opposing peoples. First we learn that the sheep are placed on Christ’s right hand, the goats are then put on His left hand. Matthew 25 tells us that the sheep are “blessed” (in fact Jesus describes them as “ye blessed of my Father”), and are rewarded for their faithfulness to the Lord by being ushered into eternal bliss. This cannot in any way refer to the unregenerate. The goats on the other hand are “cursed.” This condemnation can only apply to the wicked.
Who are the Chosen, and Who are the Nations?
Why are the Chosen and the Nations gathered separately?
Who are the sheep, and who are the goats?
Why are sheep and goats gathered as a mixed group?
Why are they then separated according to their works.
You all have your choices, in either self affirming through your gossipy conversations, or give clear and concise answers.
I can give clear and straightforward answers to these that are in harmony with all the relevant passages.
No one else seems to want to. I realize why. You cannot answer according to your view without changing the prophecy into something it's not.
Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 25:31-36 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Much love!
Why are the Chosen and the Nations gathered separately?
Who are the sheep, and who are the goats?
Why are sheep and goats gathered as a mixed group?
Why are they then separated according to their works.
You all have your choices, in either self affirming through your gossipy conversations, or give clear and concise answers.
I can give clear and straightforward answers to these that are in harmony with all the relevant passages.
No one else seems to want to. I realize why. You cannot answer according to your view without changing the prophecy into something it's not.
Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 25:31-36 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Much love!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
There is no blurring of Truth except within our minds when we fail to see and understand.
1. Who are the sheep? = JESUS says the sheep hear His Voice, they understand His words and are saved thru them.
2. - Why are they gathered separately = His sheep are not gathered separately when HE Comes
3. - Why are the sheep and goats mixed? JESUS said: let them grow together until the End, when HE will be separated them
4. - Why are they separated according to their works?
Both the sheep and the goats are doing similar works = "Lord lord did we not cast out demons in your name"
the DIFFERENCE is to Whom their works are being applied and from Where they originate = Ephesians 2:8-10
- This is referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
- Christ is coming in final and majestic glory to execute judgment.
- The Lord only encounters two types of people when He returns.
- These are both judged at His appearing.
- One group is portrayed as righteous and is the subject of blessing and reward.
- The other group is portrayed as wicked and is the subject of God’s wrath and punished.
- They are before the exact same throne at the exact same time.
- There is no gap of time in-between the judgment of the righteous and the judgment of the wicked.
- The good receive eternal life.
- The bad obtain eternal punishment.
- There is absolutely no mention of, or allowance made for, a third group.
I think we need to review these passages.
The Chosen are gathered before Jesus takes His throne, the Nations are gathered after Jesus takes His thone. So then there are two gathering, one of the chosen and one of the nations, who will be divided like sheep and goats are divided.
Why are the Chosen gathered before Jesus takes His throne, and why are the nations gathered after?
My answer, the Chosen is His chosen nation Israel, who is gathered in salvation, all of them saved, according to God's promise. The gentiles are gathered after Jesus takes His throne, as they will be judged according to their treatment of Israel.
If you disagree, what is your answer?
Much love!
The nations are judged after the general resurrection at the one-and-only coming of Christ. The nations are simply gathered before Him to receive their reward or judgment. It is not talking about another gathering from the earth in that setting.
People that do not have Jesus Christ are not His chosen. I don't know where you're getting that from.
Favor with God can come only through Jesus Christ. He is heaven’s only means of access to God. Acts 4:12 says, “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”
This is God’s only way to heaven. Christ is the center-point of salvation. We therefore see that Christ alone is our only way of access to heaven. There is no alternative arrangement pertaining to race or any other distinction. 1 Corinthians 3:11 states, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
Of course, Christ is the Rock that the believer stands on. He is the only spiritual foundation for man. Men either build their house upon that Rock or build it upon sand. Sand is self! A house properly built upon the Rock stands firm in the midst of the storm but the house built upon the sand falls apart. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 expressly states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time”
This couldn’t be any clearer! There is no Plan B. There is no back-doors into heaven. There is no alternative salvation. There is no other means of man gaining favor with God! There is no other way to become a child of God. There is no other path to be God’s one of God’s elect.
John the Baptist proclaimed in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
There is nothing vague, ambiguous or complicated here. God only sees those in Christ and those not in Christ. There is also no room for fence-sitting here. If a Jew or Gentile (in the Old Testament or the New Testament) loves the Messiah Christ He is one of God's chosen, if he doesn't he is under the wrath of God. Simple!!! Basically: accept Jesus and God accepts you, reject Him and God rejects you.
Jesus said in John 5:23b-24, “He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
Ok, what does this mean? Simple: those Jews and Gentiles that don’t accept Christ, don’t accept the Father. Christ-rejecting Jews and Gentiles are therefore under condemnation and are of their father the devil.
I John 2:22-23 solemnly asks, “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ (or Messiah)? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”
Q. Does Israel overwhelmingly deny “that Jesus is the Christ” or Messiah?
A. Absolutely. Therefore, Judaism without Christ is a counterfeit religion. It is apostate! Any belief that denies Christ His rightful place as man's sole Redeemer is destined for destruction. Anyone that rejects Christ (1) is antichrist, (2) belongs to Satan, (3) is part of the kingdom of darkness and is (4) bound for the Lake of Fire.
1 John 5:12: “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”
The teaching of Scripture couldn’t be plainer: Jews who do recognize Christ as Messiah are saved. Jews who do not recognize Christ as Messiah are lost. The only chosen people that God knows and accepts are those that accept His Son. The rest are of their father the devil.
2 John 1:9: “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.”
If a sinner refuses Christ, he refuses the Father. This couldn’t be clearer in Scripture.
Jesus said in Luke 9:48, “whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me.”
So, those that reject Jesus, reject salvation. Those that reject Jesus, reject the Father. Those that reject Jesus, are children of the devil. This is seen throughout the inspired New Testament account.
Jesus said in Matthew 11:6: “blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.”
We don’t need to speculate about what natural Israel currently thinks of Christ.
Jesus said in Matthew 12:30, “He that is not with me is against me.”
There is no neutrality with this Jesus. There is no room for fence-sitting when it comes to Him. You are either for Him or against Him.
Jesus said in John 15:23, “He that hateth me hateth my Father also.”
God does not separate His elect up, He unites them together in Christ. In fact, there is nothing more unbiblical in this new covenant period than trying to divide up the people of God on the grounds of ethnicity. That is spiritual apartheid and runs completely to the New Testament plan of God to bring Jew and Gentile together equally in Christ. The whole mission of Jesus Christ in introducing the new covenant was to unite Jew and Gentile in salvation. Nothing could be clearer in the New Testament!
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This does not identify who these people are, unless you mean all the redeemed. Is that what you mean? If so, then who is gathered in Matthew 24:31?
According to the prophecies, the chosen are gathered before nations, which include the sheep, so yes, in fact there are two separate gatherings of those who are saved.
The sheep and goats are mixed when gathered because the primary group is the nations, who will be judged. The chosen are not subject to this judgment. It's not that Jesus is gathering the redeemed, He's gathering the nations.
Their works were not the same. That's the point of the description. This is not about casting out demons, it's about providing for the needs of Jesus' brothers, who are a separate group from the sheep. The sheep did care for their needs, the goats did not.
Much love!
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And in particular . . . Who is Israel? Getting this one wrong will mean you won't be able to interpret these prophecies correctly, as this thread demonstrates. Only if you understand the truth about Israel will you be able to give answers to my questions that agree with Scripture.
Much love!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
The Light
Well-Known Member
There should be no flesh saved. The unrighteous are not saved.
There is a rapture at the 6th seal. The flesh that are saved are the righteous being raptured alive. If the great tribulation is not cut short, all those that receive salvation will come from the graves.................there will be no flesh saved.
You know there are 144,000 first fruits. Don't you think that means there will be a harvest? Those that get victory over the beast are singing the song of Moses. They are Jews. Here is the harvest. This harvest occurs at the 6th seal before the wrath of God.
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
This is why you are not able to given clear and concise answers to my questions, while I can, those answers directly from the Bible. Israel is Israel, and the church is the church. One is an ethnic group, one is a spiritual group. If you blend them together, you get the wrong answers. Or cannot give any answer at all in some cases, as we've seen.
Seriously, man, go back and read over those prophecies, meditate on them, learn them. Become thoroughly familiar with them, and then believe the very exact things they say.
Much love!
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