PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[The Light]

LOL. What? No, it clearly says that the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. You have them being caught up on two different occasions which is not at all what Paul wrote. You are blatantly twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to say.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Riddle me this:

If the dead and alive are caught up together to meet the Lord in the air, how can the alive remain?

 

[rebuilder 454]

You have given PLENTY OF CLUES as to your deceptions right here on this forum, and not just to me. You have been shown what Lord Jesus showed when His coming to gather His saints will be, but you STILL reject... what He said in favor of following men's false pre-trib rapture theory which preaches just the opposite!

How much more evidence does one need to prove that you are deceived away from simple Bible Scripture, particularly CHRIST'S OWN WORDS? You can run... away from the following Bible Scripture by Lord Jesus Christ, but you cannot hide...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

He is telling you to debate honestly.
He is not accusing you of aligning with Catholics when you bring up your foundation of men and Darby.

But your deal is so weak that you mimic the Catholics.
Go to their website.
They sound EXACTLY like you
Darby Darby Darby Darby Darby Darby Darby Darby Darby Darby Darby Darby Darby Darby Darby Darby!

...and like you turn around and invoke dead ancients derriving their ERROR ( AS YOU ALSO CHAMPION) from flawed men with limited revelation.

What a mess you guys have made.
Basing your doctrine on men.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What do postribs do with Rev 19.?

It 100% is the second coming.

I never see them go there.
It is as if it does not exist.

 

[Davy]

Well, you should. Do I now need to present some defense to you to somehow convince you I'm being honest with you? Right! And you'd believe that?? See how this works? I'm a faceless internet writer, and I could tell you anthing. Yes, maybe I'm here to get a big ego boost no matter what it takes. Obviously we have that sort here.

Does that finally... mean you are going to TRY and provide Bible Scriptures that backs up the false pre-trib rapture theory that you believe?

You can try that, but I know you cannot do it, because I don't believe you have gotten that false doctrine on your own, like you seem to be claiming. So no, I don't believe you.

I've heard lots of teaching on the rapture, including pre-trib, pre-wrath, mid trib (not so much this one), and post trib. Also those who teach no rapture (yes, there are some).

Who cares... about what ones 'hears', if they don't know what God's Word as written says about it first?

I know what God's Word says about it, even in The Old Testament, which a lot of brethren don't realize God pointed to that false pre-trib rapture theory in the Book of Ezekiel.

Some of the most interesting teaching I've heard came from Peter Goodgame

Following and promoting 'man' again I see. That's one of your problems that you don't seem to be aware of, i.e., following what men say. What does God in His Word say? I thought you said you had studied your Bible? So why are you all of a sudden default to what man says? You can read Tim LaHaye's 13 book Left-Behind series and you still won't be in any better position of God's Truth.

Not that I agree with everything he thinks. Pre-wrath rapture to me takes #2 spot behind pre-trib, but I think pre-wrath is not a fit to Scripture.

Who cares what pre-wrath says, what does your Bible say? And I showed you specific verses by Lord Jesus Himself showing that His coming will be after the tribulation.

Just the same, I was in the process of becoming pre-wrath when I realized the conflicts.

Could care less.

I've studied this myself, quite independantly of any teaching. But enough about me.

Of course we know that is not true. You can feed yourself the lie that you came about belief on man's false pre-trib rapture by your lonesome, but you did not, simply because no such idea exists written in God's Word. That's why you keep going on here like you do, not providing any Bible Scripture to prove the pre-trib rapture theory.

Yes, this is one of the passages that convinced me that the rapture was not included in this prophecy. For one thing the Jews would never ever had understood "the chosen" to include gentiles who were not proselytes to Judaism. When Jesus said He's gather the chosen and the nations, well, IF you observe the "grammatical historical hermeneutic" (I do), then you would understand that Jesus was speaking of Isreal and the Gentiles, which is exaclty how His audience would have understood it.

The argument is offered, The disciples didn't always understand what Jesus was saying, and that's true, but I don't find any indication that they had some lack of understanding of the words He used, what they meant.

And this is just the beginning. When we realize that righteous gentiles are gathered after the chosen are gathered, then we have to ask the question, why weren't they in the first gathering, if it included the gentile believers?

When we see that the gentiles are being divided according to whether or not they cared for the needs of Jesus' "brothers", we have to answer, who are these "brothers" of Jesus? I'd answer, they are of course the Jews gathered in the first gathering. The sheep and goats are divided according to their relation to a third party, called Jesus' brothers.

Uh, what? The Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture is EMPHATICALLY about the event of Christ's future coming and gathering of the Church. That is Jesus' Olivet discourse, SIGNS of the END He was giving that His disciples asked Him about. And those SIGNS in Matthew 24 parallel the SEALS of Revelation 6.

Now who... do you think Jesus gave His Book of Revelation to, to monkies?

So now... you not only show you are deceived with belief on man's false pre-trib rapture theory, you also... are on man's false Hyper-Dispensationalist boat too! That doctrine tries to separate Jesus' Olivet discourse apart from the Church, trying to FALSELY claim Jesus meant that only for JEWS, which is ignorant, and only an idea devised by the charlatans of the pre-trib school to try and get its believers away from those SIGNS of the END Jesus gave there. And I know you didn't come by that idea on your own either.

This means the rest of your words are just man's crap, and not worth reading.

You are not... to be TRUSTED with Bible teaching on these matters. And if you don't repent to Christ and make a change, you may be in a whole lot of trouble with Him when He comes.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I don't believe you. By that you are claiming that you 'naturally' came about the pre-trib rapture theory from actual Bible study instead of from some man, when I well KNOW that is false. You got the idea from a preacher familiar with what Darby and the Plymouth Brethren believed and taught in 1800's Great Britain, or from later authors in America like Cyrus Scofield.

The way I KNOW... you did not get the pre-trib rapture theory from God's Word is because Jesus declared the OPPOSITE of that theory when He showed the time of His future coming and gathering of His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation, not prior to it.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

What baloney
But your lies are from.ignorance.
You know you are forbidden from truth right??
That is fear of truth operating in you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Does that finally... mean you are going to TRY and provide Bible Scriptures that backs up the false pre-trib rapture theory that you believe?

You can try that, but I know you cannot do it, because I don't believe you have gotten that false doctrine on your own, like you seem to be claiming. So no, I don't believe you.



Who cares... about what ones 'hears', if they don't know what God's Word as written says about it first?

I know what God's Word says about it, even in The Old Testament, which a lot of brethren don't realize God pointed to that false pre-trib rapture theory in the Book of Ezekiel.



Following and promoting 'man' again I see. That's one of your problems that you don't seem to be aware of, i.e., following what men say. What does God in His Word say? I thought you said you had studied your Bible? So why are you all of a sudden default to what man says? You can read Tim LaHaye's 13 book Left-Behind series and you still won't be in any better position of God's Truth.



Who cares what pre-wrath says, what does your Bible say? And I showed you specific verses by Lord Jesus Himself showing that His coming will be after the tribulation.



Could care less.



Of course we know that is not true. You can feed yourself the lie that you came about belief on man's false pre-trib rapture by your lonesome, but you did not, simply because no such idea exists written in God's Word. That's why you keep going on here like you do, not providing any Bible Scripture to prove the pre-trib rapture theory.



Uh, what? The Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture is EMPHATICALLY about the event of Christ's future coming and gathering of the Church. That is Jesus' Olivet discourse, SIGNS of the END He was giving that His disciples asked Him about. And those SIGNS in Matthew 24 parallel the SEALS of Revelation 6.

Now who... do you think Jesus gave His Book of Revelation to, to monkies?

So now... you not only show you are deceived with belief on man's false pre-trib rapture theory, you also... are on man's false Hyper-Dispensationalist boat too! That doctrine tries to separate Jesus' Olivet discourse apart from the Church, trying to FALSELY claim Jesus meant that only for JEWS, which is ignorant, and only an idea devised by the charlatans of the pre-trib school to try and get its believers away from those SIGNS of the END Jesus gave there. And I know you didn't come by that idea on your own either.

This means the rest of your words are just man's crap, and not worth reading.

You are not... to be TRUSTED with Bible teaching on these matters. And if you don't repent to Christ and make a change, you may be in a whole lot of trouble with Him when He comes.

How juvenile
Now you can read minds and know a stranger better than he himself.
Pure silly baloney
You are not very old are you.?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Imagine a doctrine so sinister that fear of truth is its foundation.
That is the postrib rapture doctrine.

Sad

 

[Davy]

Nope. Not so. Expecting that God would operate according to your rules isn't very realistic, is it?

Now that's the pot calling the kettle black (old wives saying). Meaning, you are actually the one who is guilty... of making up your own... rules... to determine what Jesus said, when Lord Jesus gave 'direct' statements to show He comes after the tribulation.

Do you know what the difference is between a 'direct statement' of truth and a metaphor or expression, idiom, etc.? A direct statement you can take as emphatic Truth, no hidden prophecy behind it, no hidden symbolic meaning behind it, no parable, just plain simple Truth giving in plain and simple words. That is what the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture is, just plain and simple 'direct statements' of Truth, given by Lord Jesus Christ.

Now there exists many... other Bible Scriptures that also prove Jesus' future coming will be at the end of the coming tribulation also, but if one can't even get past the passages of 'direct statements' Jesus gave about it, then no use in trying to convince a person about all the other Scriptures about His coming after the tribulation. If one won't believe Jesus, then why would they believe any of the New Testament Epistles by His Apostles?

Much TOUGH love, because you really need it dude.

 

[Davy]

Who are the sheep? Why are they gathered separately? Why are the sheep and goats mixed? Why are they separated according to their works?

Read John 10 and you'll find out who the 'sheep' represent.

Now you have it marked in your profile that you are a Christian. So how is it that you don't know about that? Have you come here just pretending... to be a Christian?

 

[Davy]

You continue to reply but not answer. That speaks volumes, you know! This is Jesus' prophecy. That the chosen will be gathered, and later, the nations will be gathered, to be separated and either received into the kingdom or sent away.

Trying to make this out like something I'm making up is a straight up denial of Jesus' word. He is the one who said this. Not me. Jesus. Believe Him.

Much love!

Uh oh, that speech reveals the start of a backing-out of the conversation attempt.

 

[Davy]

Remember . . . "sheep" and "goats" are used as a simile to describe Jesus' actions as He gathers the nations together, and separates them "Like a shepherd separating the sheep and goats".

When we look past the simile, to what Jesus is saying, we see that He's gathered the nations, and is separating them into two groups, those who cared for the needs of Jesus' brothers, and those who did not.

That is a JEWISH interpretation of Matthew 25 about the sheep and goats. The deceived JEWS don't believe that event has anything to do with Christ's Church.

To know who the "sheep" there represent, all one need do is simply READ what He said...

Matt 25:31-34
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:

32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"
KJV

Here's some Scriptures which point directly to those to whom the kingdom has been prepared from the foundation of the world:

Eph 1:4
4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
KJV


This next verse is about the deceived who's names are NOT written in the book of life, as they will worship the "dragon" mentioned in the Rev.13:4 verse. Only Christ's elect will not worship that "dragon" beast...

Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV

Now if that ain't about Christ's "sheep" as Christ's Church ordained to Christ before the foundation of the world, then you can feed me pone and watch me grow.

 

[David in NJ]

Riddle me this:

If the dead and alive are caught up together to meet the Lord in the air, how can the alive remain?

1 Thess 4:13-18 = 1 Corinthians chapter 15

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55“O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So let me see if I understand you. "I say all kinds of nasty things to others, but that's OK, because other people say all kinds of nasty things also."

I don't think that is sound reasoning.

Anyway, like I've already told you . . . I don't get into triangulating, that'a schoolgirl nonsense, and I believe is how you are intending to avoid responsibility for your actions.

Says the one who spoke schoolgirl nonsense by acting as if the behavior of people on an online forum is a way to determine doctrinal truth. You can't get any more nonsensical than that. That really shows the kind of mindset you have. You don't determine truth from scripture, you determine truth from other things.

You somehow conveniently miss all the nastiness that comes from pre-tribs on this forum. We're supposed to believe that you haven't seen any of that from them?

 

[David in NJ]

Imagine a doctrine so sinister that fear of truth is its foundation.
That is the postrib rapture doctrine.

Sad

JESUS is "sinister" now!!!

"Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days......I Come"

the more you double-down on a lie the more you become hateful towards the words of Christ and those who hold His words in our hearts

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Riddle me this:

If the dead and alive are caught up together to meet the Lord in the air, how can the alive remain?

LOL. What?! Why are you twisting the text? You pre-tribs are the most dishonest people I've ever seen. The alive don't remain on earth. It says they are the ones who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord. They are contrasted with those who are dead.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Why do you act as if it says "we who are alive and remain after the coming of the Lord"? No, it says "we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord". Paul contrasts those who are alive when Jesus comes to those who are bodily asleep/dead when He comes and he makes it clear that those who are alive when He comes will not be caught up to meet the Lord before the dead in Christ do. So, what will happen is that the dead in Christ will be resurrected and then they, along with those who are alive when He comes will be caught up together "in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air". It could not be more clear that the resurrected dead in Christ will be caught up together at the same time with those who are alive when Jesus comes to meet Him in the air. Yet, you still somehow miss that. You need to ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7). For you to not be able to discern something as simple and clear as this is just unbelievable.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Have you made a list of all the nasty things you've said to others?

Are you trying to change the subject? You are acting as if the behavior of a relatively small group of people on an online forum is a determining factor in whether pre-trib or post-trib is true. You can't get any more ridiculous than that. How can you expect to be taken seriously when your methods for finding biblical truth are so ludicrous?

I'm also very skeptical that you somehow have missed all the nasty things that pre-tribs have said on this forum. You didn't read any of the threads that related specifically to pre-trib? Those are full of insults from pre-tribs.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Read John 10 and you'll find out who the 'sheep' represent.

Now you have it marked in your profile that you are a Christian. So how is it that you don't know about that? Have you come here just pretending... to be a Christian?

Anyone who tries to claim that the sheep are anyone but those who belong to Christ has to be completely lacking in discernment and, apparently, has never read John 10. Or they have read it and don't accept it or they forgot what they read or something. Pre-tribs can't even discern the simplest things in scripture. It's sad to see.

 

[covenantee]

When we look past the simile, to what Jesus is saying, we see that He's gathered the nations, and is separating them into two groups, those who cared for the needs of Jesus' brothers, and those who did not.

These brothers (and sisters and mothers):

Matthew 12
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

 

[David in NJ]

These brothers (and sisters and mothers):

Matthew 12
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

marks is assuming that Jesus "brothers" are purely ethnic Jews ???

@marks = is this correct? Do you believe JESUS is speaking of ethnic Jews when HE says "least of these my brethren"

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

marks is assuming that Jesus "brothers" are purely ethnic Jews ???

@marks = is this correct? Do you believe JESUS is speaking of ethnic Jews when HE says "least of these my brethren"

That's probably what he thinks. He obviously doesn't include interpreting scripture with scripture in his approach to interpreting scripture, which is why He also doesn't understand who the sheep represent, which are clearly those who belong to Christ (John 10). And, it's why he doesn't recognize who the elect/chosen are in Matthew 24:31 (Mark 13:27), which, again, are those who belong to Christ (Romans 8:31-34). The elect/chosen of Matthew 24:31 (Mark 13:27) are the sheep of Matthew 25:31-46. The place where the angels gather the elect/chosen to when Jesus returns is before Christ's throne, as indicated in Matthew 25:31-46.