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Prophecy paradigm shift needed

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Retrobyter, Jul 17, 2014.

  1. Rocky Wiley

    Rocky Wiley Active Member

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    Saint,

    These scriptures speak of the New Jerusalem. It is the spiritual kingdom.
     
  2. shturt678s

    shturt678s New Member

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    Thank you for your response and gentleness!

    You ought to see how the Church leaders deal with old me when I butt in....sure not as gentle as you are...thank you, however Nomad has a mean left hook, and doesn't need an old man to back him for sure.

    Let's eyeball the "Kingdom" a little more...the supreme supreme concept in the N.T. is the "Kingdom of Christ" of course. A given, correct? All three Persons rule now, and forever because of the oneness of their being; however technically the Godman Christ rules now, the Father eventually - a mystery?

    God makes His own Kingdom, and only where He with His power and His grace, His Kingdom is found, that is His divine Kingdom goes back to the O.T. and rules the world until the consummation at the end of time leading to my end point in light of Matt.6:10: The Kingdom is divided, the Kingdom before Christ and the Kingdom after.

    Old Jack
     
  3. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Jack. Peace to you, brother.

    Are you even aware of what you just said? 'The supreme supreme concept in the N.T. is the "Kingdom of Christ"'? Simply make the substitution! 'The supreme supreme concept in the N.T. is the "Kingdom of the MESSIAH!"'
     
  4. Saint

    Saint New Member

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    The scriptures describe the age of the millennium when Yeshua Messiah will rule and there are still physical beings in this world; the spiritual kingdom will come in the next age when Yeshua turns all things to Father Yahweh, once death is eliminated (1Con 15). Then all things will be made new (spiritual) and there will be a New Heaven and Earth (Rev 21), Yahweh cannot live in a physical world, it needs to be made spiritual.
     
  5. Rocky Wiley

    Rocky Wiley Active Member

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    Saint,

    The kingdom of God in in us and we are the temple. When we are born again the Holy Ghost takes up residence in his temple. That is spiritual.

    Jesus told Martha that if we believe we will never die. That is spiritual

    Jesus told his disciples that he would come in judgment against his people in their generation. He did, and that was spiritually also, but he told them the sign would be the destruction of the temple. History proves that happened in 70 ad, in their generation. According to Daniel the resurrection would happen at that time, that was spiritual and no one saw it, but Jesus said it would be, so it happened. At that time death was defeated.

    Recap.

    We will never die, no death.

    The faithful Jews were resurrected, so their death was terminated.

    The only death are with the non-believers and because of Adam we were all born spiritually dead, thus the need to be born again.

    I know this is short but it is all backed by scripture. If you can't find the scripture, just let me know which one and I will respond.

    Have a blessed day!
     
  6. shturt678s

    shturt678s New Member

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    Thank you for your response again!

    I'm bendable just so "Kingdom of the MESSIAH" = "Kingdom of the Godman Christ"

    Old Jack
     
  7. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Rocky Wiley.

    Sorry, bro', but you absolutely are WRONG! Consider the following passages:

    Matthew 12:38-42
    38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
    39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
    40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
    41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
    42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
    KJV

    Luke 11:29-32
    29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
    30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
    31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
    32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
    KJV

    The Judgment will be a time when the men of Nineveh, the queen of the south, and the men of Yeshua`s generation are all present together. It was NOT in the past at all; it has yet to come.

    Also, of Yeshua`, God said, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." And, Yochanan (John) was one of the three who witnessed this:

    Matthew 17:1-5
    1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
    2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
    3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
    4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
    KJV


    Mark 9:2-7
    2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
    3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
    4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
    5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
    7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
    KJV


    Luke 9:28-35
    28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
    29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
    30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
    31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
    32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
    33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
    34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
    35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
    KJV


    So, Yochanan wrote:
    John 1:14
    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    KJV


    And, God said of Shlomoh (Solomon), "He shall be a son to me, and I shall be his Father."

    1 Chronicles 22:9-10
    9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.
    10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
    KJV


    2 Samuel 7:8-16
    8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
    9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
    10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
    11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the Lord telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
    12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
    13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
    14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
    15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
    16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
    KJV


    This is the TELESCOPING effect of Yeshua`s body as a "son of David," like Leviy (Levi) was in Avraham (Abraham) when he paid tithes to Malkhiy-Tsedeq (Melchizedek or Melchisedec). (Hebrews 7:10)

    Hebrews 7:5-10
    5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
    6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
    7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
    8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
    9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
    10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
    KJV


    THEREFORE, how one views the body/soul/spirit definitions and their relationships are inadvertently connected to how one views the incarnation of the Word!

    I grew up being taught and believing that one IS a soul, and that he HAS a body and a spirit. I viewed the body, soul, and spirit as three separate and distinct things that converged to make a physical, created being - a human being, in particular.

    HOWEVER, it is important to note that one is INCOMPLETE without his or her body! We experience life THROUGH the five senses, and where were we before we were born? What WERE we before we were born? Where and when does a "soul" begin? HOW does a "soul" begin? In the modern definitions of "soul" and "spirit," that can't be determined!

    On the other hand, if we keep the definitions simple - that is, if the "spirit" is the "breath" and the "soul" is a "breathing creature" - then one becomes a "soul" (breathing creature) when one takes his first "spirit" (breath) of air! He stops being a "soul" when he breathes his last! He "gives up the spirit" - that is, he "parts with his breath!" His body goes into the ground or sea or is burnt in the furnace, and he ceases to exist! So, where is the ESSENCE of the person? He exists in the MIND and MEMORY OF GOD! This is why the RESURRECTION - REAL RESURRECTION - is so important!

    The RESURRECTION is the re-creation of our bodies, the re-animation of our bodies, the re-creation of our "souls," our "breathing creatures!" He's not "putting our souls (or our spirits) back into our bodies"; He's putting "spirit" (breath) back into our bodies, re-created and re-formed more from HIS MEMORY of our every detail than from the materials at hand! We become "living souls" (living, breathing creatures) again!

    MOREOVER, Paul gave us the additional information that we will have new bodies that will be incorruptible, immortal, and glorified "spiritual" bodies - bodies that can blast like the wind - more than just "soul-ual" bodies that merely breathe! They will also glow brightly (as He did on the Mount of Transfiguration), and they will be able to "give life" to others!

    1 Corinthians 15:35-57
    35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
    37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
    38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
    40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
    56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
    57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    KJV


    "Spiritual" does NOT mean "non-physical!" To the contrary, it is, if anything, MORE physical! It's really the difference between just "breathing" (psuchikos) and "BLASTING" (pneumatikos), like the wind!
     
  8. shturt678s

    shturt678s New Member

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    Thank you for caring again!

    We're going to have to raise the thought processing bar on this one for sure. "Soul" = the body consciousness of which is in the heart, is specifically in the soul thus the soul animates the body (immaterial part) giving it life.

    Upon each one's passing one awakes in their person one of two places, no one dies, dies....all receive their new bodies at the end of course.

    Old Jack's opinion
     
  9. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Jack.

    Really?! IS it "raising the bar" to spout theological opinion without Scriptural proof? Where's your proof? I know of NONE!

    While I agree with you that each person receives his/her new body at the end of each resurrection, the rest is not so well-founded. Does a person experience a sentence BEFORE he or she is judged? Isn't the sentence the RESULT of the judgment? So why would someone awake in "hell," without first being judged? OR do you believe that each person is SEPARATELY judged at death? And, if so, what is the Great White Throne Judgment all about in Revelation 20:8-15?
     
  10. Saint

    Saint New Member

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  11. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    Not to belabor the point, and that is exactly what you're doing to the extreme, but your word meanings still don't constitute a new paradigm.

    As to the little thing you and I still differ upon after all these years, I am still not persuaded. I don't rely upon Scofield, nor I am limited by how a simple people two thousand years ago used a word.

    Heaven is more than sky. Sure, they had no real concept of other dimensions, but that doesn't limit me in layering the spiritual realm of Heaven as to where we go when we die!

    So fight as you will, it changes nothing of what really is a new paradigm as you struggle to make everyone think like you do.
     
  12. shturt678s

    shturt678s New Member

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    Great! You raised the bar, however a little above my paygrade. I usually use Acts20:10 as my take off passage regarding the forever "soul." Rev.20:4 my next passage.

    Only a head's up, every dis-believer is judged even at this moment by the Word. Even you having the Word in Truth judge the world in a limited way of course.

    Old Jack

    btw when one appears at the great white Throne Judgment Bar, already sitting on the left or the right.
     
  13. RANDOR

    RANDOR Fishin Everyday

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    Wow!...way to many details (speculations) I can't keep up with them all.
    This is the way I look at things that are debatable.....(unknown....which remains unknown).....to convince the unconvinced with speculated convincing :)
    Remember...who is in the details

    I'll be glad when God does show up....for then and only then...will we all understand...together....that which we didn't understand.

    I find it...actually sad...it's not our fault...that so many Christians disagree....and I wish it wasn't so.
    Actually......I don't even understand it.....
    Soooooooooooo......I don't go there on the details............cause satan is always right there sayin.....let me help you with that scripture....YIKES!!!
    satan is always available when it comes to things we don't understand.....so....aint goin to jeopardize or should I say mix my thoughts with his......
    ahhhhhh...not goin to open a door where he could so easily slither in.

    Just care about people's salvation......that's first and foremost......satan is master of confusion, confusion brings anger, anger brings closed ears.


    But some I've come to know.................................seem to still be searching as if the more they know the more confident they seem to feel about their
    salvation.

    Slavation is not a feeling..............it is a fact, tangible, knowing, experienced, seen and is at that moment life changing.

    But this is a fact...............and ya can take this to the bank.............if.......IF someone is taught these scriptures by
    someone who has them all wrong to begin with......and we trust that man/woman....then don't even bother coming to the dock....
    for the boat aint leavin.
    The Holy Spirit teaches us......and to each is own...you would think.
    I'm sure though...........Jesus loves all who search out His name..........just can't help but not to.

    I don't even know if this had anything to do with the opening post.....just saw a blank piece of paper and a pencil and started writin :)

    Old Ramblin RANDOR...................and ya all thought ol Jack was old.
     
  14. Forsakenone

    Forsakenone Member

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    Amen. Personally, I rely upon this opinion.

    What do you think of Norman Greenbaum's commentary on the subject of where we go when we die? LINK Footnotes: [1] [2]
     
  15. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    You're kidding right? A rock and roll song? Haha, very funny.

    And so with your opinion on living by the very word of God that proceeds out His mouth, I need not pay any heed to your words? Okay.

    I am not a fan of ultra-literalism.
     
  16. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Marcus.

    I don't struggle; I proffer. Take it or leave it. And, whether you accept the offer or reject it, your choice is truly of no consequence to me. I may pity your choice, but your life is in God's hands, and I trust Him to protect you regardless. Be blessed, bro'.

    Shalom, Randor.

    First, Wikipedia says,...

    It's kind of like how some people will camp on Paul's words...

    1 Corinthians 2:1-5
    1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
    2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
    3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
    4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
    5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
    KJV


    ... and FAIL to realize that Paul continued ...

    1 Corinthians 2:6-13
    6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect (mature): yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
    7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery (secret), even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
    8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
    9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
    12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    KJV


    I'd like to think that the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) is always right there saying, "Let me help you with that Scripture!"

    Secondly, please remember that "salvation" is about the national RESCUE of Isra'el. The word that MOST people MEAN when they say "salvation" is actually "justification!" Specifically, it's the "justification of an individual by God!" To use "salvation" for God's justification of a person is a MISNOMER! In editor's marks, it would be marked as a "WW" for "wrong word!" While the two words are related in that God's salvation of national Isra'el will lead to their justification by God, they are NOT synonymous!

    Luke 18:9-14
    9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
    10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
    11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
    12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
    13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
    14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
    KJV

    I agree with you that justification by God is not a feeling; it's not an emotion. It's an act of trusting God to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. He has accomplished it through His Son, Yeshua`, who was the Sacrifice for the sins of all human beings. 2 Corinthians 5:21 in the KJV says the exchange best:

    2 Corinthians 5:17-21
    17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
    18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead (on the Messiah's behalf), be ye reconciled to God.
    21 For he (God) hath made him (the Messiah) to be sin for us, who (the Messiah) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (the Messiah).
    KJV


    We exchange our sin for God's righteousness in the Messiah. It's not a FAIR trade, but it is a JUST trade! And, by that trade, we are justified by God. Furthermore, we actually BECOME God's righteousness in the Messiah while He BECAME our sin on the cross! Thus, when God looks at us, He no longer sees our sin; He sees His own righteousness that existed within His Son! This is similar to what God saw when He looked at the Messiah on the cross. He no longer saw His Son, but He saw our sins and took His wrath out on His Son in our place.

    Isaiah 53:1-12
    1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
    2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
    3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
    4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
    8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
    9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
    10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
    11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
    KJV
     
  17. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    Well your age-old, well-worn, not-new paradigm doesn't answer where we go when we die.

    In Revelation, John, who is IN the third Heaven of the presence of God the Father, sees the Great Multitude arrive with the breaking of the sixth Seal with its attendant "Day of the Lord" sun/moon/star sign.

    This is right after the fifth Seal reveals the holding place for the martyrs - right underneath the very Altar in God's Temple in Heaven.

    And since they do not join the Great Multitude until after the entire one 'seven' is complete with Christ's victory over the anti-Christ at Armageddon - they are in another "Heaven."

    Likewise, the Dead in Christ who make up the bulk of the Great Multitude came from where? Where their souls were interned until the Last Trumpet call goes forth and summons the Dead in Christ to resurrect and be with Christ. He then returns with them on the clouds and gathers the Elect (the few remaining who never suffer death) which then constitutes the Great Multitude

    1st Heaven - Paradise as described in Luke 16.
    2nd Heaven - fifth Seal martyrs before their number is complete (with the Two Witnesses)
    3rd Heaven - the presence of God the Father as the Great Multitude will be.

    Now THAT is a new paradigm for an old word.
     
  18. Forsakenone

    Forsakenone Member

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    [​IMG]

    So you're into fasting....interestingly enough Chapter 4 of the Gospel of Matthew begins with the Spirit leading Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil wherein
    he fasted for 40 days and 40 nights.


    Genesis 50:3 refers unto 40 days as well as Exodus 34:27-29. However, while Exodus does not use the term 'fasting', it is written Moses was with the LORD on Mt. Sinai for 40 days and 40 nights;
    he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. So of a truth, it is easy to perceive how that would deter one from ultra-literalism.
     
  19. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    So you're a troll... interesting.

    - as long as we're jumping to conclusions
     
  20. shturt678s

    shturt678s New Member

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    I always knew that you would come through with your recent paygrade increase...add one more star...great!

    The only detail you missed, yet your doing was Matt.6:33. You've been hungering and thirsting for the Word.....keep up the good work. With me it's more than an old age thing...too many miles on my engine...pedal to the medal when I was at your age, and paying the price today....owees and more oweees.

    Old, sinfully working working hard not to work, Jack...seen where you went to work...great!
    Pedal to the medal one more time, eg., Kingdom (of God) = / = ethereal kingdom in heaven. Why? We're suppose to be striving first for the Kingdom of God, and the righteousness that are His this very moment while we're here on earth. This supreme seeking, described as hunger and thirst in Matt.5:6, is the distinctive mark of all true disciples, correct? My initial point is off the top, we are to strive for the Kingdom within us by God the Holy Spirit & say prophecy with the God the Holy Spirit working outside us, in to us sort of thing.

    My end point: Matt.5:3, "Kingdom of the heavens" for example centers in the Godman King, Jesus Christ, and in the powers of grace, might, and glory that go out from Him. Where He is, there the Kingdom is because there He exercises grace and power on earth right this moment...as well as in heaven.

    Old Jack's view
     
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