Shalom, Marcus.
John never says that he IS in the "third heaven." John never even talks about the "new heaven" (which I believe is the "third heaven") until Revelation 21.
And, where is God-the-Father's presence?! Aren't we taught that He is OMNIPRESENT?!
Where, at the breaking of the fifth or sixth seal, does it say that the Great Multitude "ARRIVES," let alone "ARRIVES IN HEAVEN?!"
Revelation 6:9-17
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV
The words "under the altar the souls of them that were slain" are the Greek words "hupakatoo tou thusiasteeriou tas psuchas toon esfagmenoon." Of course, "tas psuchas" ("the souls") are the words in question. The additional important Greek words are these:
HOWEVER, if you're still thinking about "souls" as the "immaterial parts" of people now dead and separated from their bodies, you're going to come to one conclusion, BUT if you're thinking about "souls" as the "animated bodies" or the "breathing bodies" of people dead AT ONE TIME and now RESURRECTED, you would come to a different conclusion!
Also, I think you mean "interred," right? "Interned" means to be "confined, detained, held captive, locked up, imprisoned, incarcerated, impounded, or jailed."
Okay, Yeshua` is NOT describing in Luke 16 a scene in some "paradise," as you suggest. Let's look at the word "paradise":
As anyone can find with a rudimentary look at a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, there are three locations in Scripture that use the English word "paradise," Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; and Revelation 2:7. (Luke 16 is NOT among them.) And, they all three come from the Greek word listed as NT:3857 and transliterated into the English letters, "paradeisos":
Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
KJV
2 Corinthians 12:4
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
KJV
Revelation 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
KJV
Notice closely the note to "compare OT:6508" and that this word has an "Oriental origin," that is, although it is a Greek word, it has its origins in the Middle East or farther East, such as Mesopotamia. So, let's look at this Hebrew word which is associated with the word "paradeisos":
Nehemiah 2:8
8 And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.
KJV
Ecclesiastes 2:5
5 I made me gardens and orchards, and I planted trees in them of all kind of fruits:
KJV
Song of Solomon 4:13
13 Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard,
KJV
(By the way, I use the transliteration "ee" because it is a transliteration of the vowel point tsere, which is an "ay" sound, as opposed to the "e" transliteration of the vowel point segol, which is an "eh" sound.)
Strictly speaking then, the word "pardeec" simply means "a park (of trees!); an orchard!" Furthermore, its Greek counterpart, "paradeisos," also means "a park (of trees!)" So, our word "paradise," which is a TRANSLITERATION of the Greek word, should also mean "a park of trees!" So, where does Luke 16 even HINT at a "park of trees?!"
ON THE OTHER HAND, if one follows out the third occurrence of "paradise," namely Revelation 2:7, to its logical conclusion, "paradise" is where the Tree of Life is located! And, WHERE do we see this species again?
Rev 21:1-3, 10-13, 21, 2:1-2
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven (sky) and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (the sky), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (the sky) saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
...
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven (the sky) from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
...
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
...
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
KJV
Thus, the "paradise of God" is within the city of God, the New Jerusalem! It's a "park of trees," specifically of the species known as the "Tree of Life!" They are found throughout the new city within the medians of the city's street of gold!
Frankly, that my "age-old, well-worn, not-new paradigm doesn't answer where we go when we die" really doesn't matter! Whether we die and temporarily cease to exist, our bodies put in the graves and our breaths going back into the sky and back to God, or if we die and our "spirits" go to be with God IN THE NEW JERUSALEM, it doesn't matter; either way, we need to have our bodies RESURRECTED to continue! And, we won't truly be able to enjoy our new lives with the Messiah until we do!Marcus O'Reillius said:
John never says that he IS in the "third heaven." John never even talks about the "new heaven" (which I believe is the "third heaven") until Revelation 21.
And, where is God-the-Father's presence?! Aren't we taught that He is OMNIPRESENT?!
Where, at the breaking of the fifth or sixth seal, does it say that the Great Multitude "ARRIVES," let alone "ARRIVES IN HEAVEN?!"
Revelation 6:9-17
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV
The words "under the altar the souls of them that were slain" are the Greek words "hupakatoo tou thusiasteeriou tas psuchas toon esfagmenoon." Of course, "tas psuchas" ("the souls") are the words in question. The additional important Greek words are these:
Literally then, this Greek phrase translates to "beneath the altar the 'psuchas' of the once-butchered/slaughtered."
HOWEVER, if you're still thinking about "souls" as the "immaterial parts" of people now dead and separated from their bodies, you're going to come to one conclusion, BUT if you're thinking about "souls" as the "animated bodies" or the "breathing bodies" of people dead AT ONE TIME and now RESURRECTED, you would come to a different conclusion!
Also, I think you mean "interred," right? "Interned" means to be "confined, detained, held captive, locked up, imprisoned, incarcerated, impounded, or jailed."
Okay, Yeshua` is NOT describing in Luke 16 a scene in some "paradise," as you suggest. Let's look at the word "paradise":
As anyone can find with a rudimentary look at a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, there are three locations in Scripture that use the English word "paradise," Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; and Revelation 2:7. (Luke 16 is NOT among them.) And, they all three come from the Greek word listed as NT:3857 and transliterated into the English letters, "paradeisos":
Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
KJV
2 Corinthians 12:4
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
KJV
Revelation 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
KJV
(I would also, at this point, use the Englishman's Concordance to confirm that these are the only three occurrences of that Greek word.)
Notice closely the note to "compare OT:6508" and that this word has an "Oriental origin," that is, although it is a Greek word, it has its origins in the Middle East or farther East, such as Mesopotamia. So, let's look at this Hebrew word which is associated with the word "paradeisos":
From either the Englishman's Concordance or from looking up both English words listed for the KJV in Strong's Concordance and checking for the "OT:6508" number, we can ascertain that this word "pardeec" is found in Nehemiah 2:8 as "the ... forest" (hapardeec), Ecclesiastes 2:5 as "and orchards" (uwpardeeciym), and Song of Solomon 4:13 as "an orchard" (pardeec).
Nehemiah 2:8
8 And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.
KJV
Ecclesiastes 2:5
5 I made me gardens and orchards, and I planted trees in them of all kind of fruits:
KJV
Song of Solomon 4:13
13 Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard,
KJV
(By the way, I use the transliteration "ee" because it is a transliteration of the vowel point tsere, which is an "ay" sound, as opposed to the "e" transliteration of the vowel point segol, which is an "eh" sound.)
Strictly speaking then, the word "pardeec" simply means "a park (of trees!); an orchard!" Furthermore, its Greek counterpart, "paradeisos," also means "a park (of trees!)" So, our word "paradise," which is a TRANSLITERATION of the Greek word, should also mean "a park of trees!" So, where does Luke 16 even HINT at a "park of trees?!"
ON THE OTHER HAND, if one follows out the third occurrence of "paradise," namely Revelation 2:7, to its logical conclusion, "paradise" is where the Tree of Life is located! And, WHERE do we see this species again?
Rev 21:1-3, 10-13, 21, 2:1-2
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven (sky) and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (the sky), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (the sky) saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
...
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven (the sky) from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
...
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
...
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
KJV
Thus, the "paradise of God" is within the city of God, the New Jerusalem! It's a "park of trees," specifically of the species known as the "Tree of Life!" They are found throughout the new city within the medians of the city's street of gold!
