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Prophecy paradigm shift needed

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Retrobyter, Jul 17, 2014.

  1. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, everyone.

    I would like to suggest a massive paradigm shift based on six definitions:

    These definitions are of the six words: "Christ," "Kingdom", "Gospel," "Salvation," "Church," and "Heaven."

    Currently, many Christians use the following definitions:

    (3rd) Heaven = God's abode
    Christ = the Son of God, Jesus
    Kingdom (of God) = ethereal kingdom in Heaven
    Gospel = good news about one's justification by God
    Salvation = one's justification by God
    Church = special body of Christ

    Here's the new (old) definitions for these words:

    (3rd) Heaven = the skies, particularly the earth's atmosphere
    Christ = one who is anointed to become King
    Kingdom (of God) = literal kingdom on earth
    Gospel = good news about God reigning
    Salvation = national rescue, particularly of the Messiah's Isra'el
    Church = a gathering of people

    When the children of Isra'el first left Egypt, they became a nation ruled DIRECTLY by God (YHWH), but led by Mosheh (Moses) and Aharown (Aaron) his brother. That was the FIRST occurrence of the Kingdom of God.

    Later, after being led by Joshua and after that the judges, and after the first king Shaa'uwl (Saul) ended in disaster, David and Shlomoh (Solomon) were kings THROUGH whom God ruled His people, the children of Isra'el. David was called a "man after God's own heart," and Shlomoh was actually called BY GOD, "God's son." David ruled first over Judah, and then over Isra'el. Shlomoh ruled first over all Isra'el and then over its tributaries.

    Later still, Yeshua` (Jesus) came on the scene as the FINAL Messiah, the FINAL "One who is anointed to be Isra'el's King," and God will reign THROUGH Yeshua` the Messiah first over Judah, second over Isra'el, third over its tributaries and territories, and finally over the whole world.

    Somehow, over the last 2,000 years or so, that image has MORPHED into God (the Trinity) ruling over the entire UNIVERSE (instead of just the world), and Christians have become nebulous in their theology to the point of becoming relatively impotent and too general and ethereal in their approach to God's prophecies.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Rocky Wiley

    Rocky Wiley Active Member

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    Retroybyter,

    For one to be correct, they must agree with scripture.
    Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    God's kingdom is a spiritual one.
     
    lforrest likes this.
  3. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    Retrobyter, I fully agree with your excellent new [old] definitions. Church teaching has changed them from their correct meanings.
    Rocky Wiley, Jesus said; but now My Kingdom is not here. That was right at that time, because He ascended to heaven then, but He WILL Return and establish His Kingdom on earth.
     
  4. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shabbat shalom, Rocky Wiley (that is, the Shabbat starts soon, at sundown).
    For one to agree with Scripture, one must be able to use the correct terms. The Greek word "kosmos" is the word translated as "world," and it refers to the world-SYSTEM of politics and hierarchies. It is NOT talking about this EARTH! That's the Greek word "gee" (spelled gamma-eta and pronounced "gay"). God's Kingdom is NOT a "spiritual" one. That is a term that MANY, MANY, MANY PEOPLE misuse and abuse!

    Here's the Greek word translated as "spiritual":

    NT:4152 pneumatikos (pnyoo-mat-ik-os'); from NT:4151; non-carnal, i.e. (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious:
    KJV - spiritual. Compare NT:5591.

    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

    It is found 26 times in the Greek New Testament, 15 of which are found in 1 Corinthians. (Some verses contain more than one instance of the word.)

    Romans 1:11
    11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
    KJV
    Romans 7:14
    14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
    KJV
    Romans 15:27
    27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
    KJV
    1 Corinthians 2:13
    13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    KJV
    1 Corinthians 2:15
    15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
    KJV
    1 Corinthians 3:1
    3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
    KJV
    1 Corinthians 9:11
    11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
    KJV
    1 Corinthians 10:3
    3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
    KJV
    1 Corinthians 10:4
    4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
    KJV
    1 Corinthians 12:1
    12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
    KJV
    1 Corinthians 14:1
    14 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
    KJV
    1 Corinthians 14:37
    37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
    KJV
    1 Corinthians 15:44
    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    KJV
    1 Corinthians 15:46
    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    KJV
    Galatians 6:1
    6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
    KJV
    Ephesians 1:3
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    KJV
    Ephesians 5:19
    19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
    KJV
    Ephesians 6:12
    12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
    KJV
    Colossians 1:9
    9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
    KJV
    Colossians 3:16
    16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
    KJV
    1 Peter 2:5
    5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
    KJV


    Look at 1 Corinthians 15:38-49 in the Greek:

    1 Corinthians 15:38-49
    38 ho de theos didoosin autoo sooma kathoos eetheleesen kai hekastoo too spermatoon idion sooma.
    39 Ou pasa sarx hee autee sarx
    alla allee men anthroopoon,
    allee de sarx kteenoon,
    allee de sarx pteenoon,
    allee de ichthuoon.
    40 Kai Soomata epourania, kai soomata epigeia;
    alla hettera men hee toon epouranioon doxa,
    hetera de hee toon epigeioon.
    41 Allee doxa heeliou,
    kai allee doxa seleenees,
    kai allee doxa asteroon:
    asteer gar asteros diaferei en doxee.
    42 Houtoos kai hee anastasis toon nekroon.
    Speiretai en fthora, egeiretai en afharsia;
    43 Speiretai en atimia egeiretai en doxee;
    Speiretai en astheneia, egeiretai en dunamei;
    44 Speiretai sooma psuchikon, egeiretai sooma pneumatikon.
    Ei estin sooma psuchikon, estin kai pneumatikon.
    45 Houtoos kai gegraptai “egeneto ho prootos anthroopos Adam eis psucheen zoosan”;
    ho eschatos Adam eis pneuma zoo-opoioun.
    46 All’ ou prooton to pneumatikon alla to psuchikon, epeita to pneumatikon.
    47 Ho prootos anthroopos ek gees choikos;
    ho Deuteros anthroopos ex ouranou.
    48 Hoios ho choikos toioutoi kai hoi choikoi;
    kai hoios ho epouranios, toioutoi kai hoi epouranioi;
    49 kai kathoos eforesamen teen eikona tou choikou
    foresomen kai teen eikona tou epouraniou.

    The Greek New Testament

    Here's a word-for-word translation:

    38 ho = 38 the
    de = but
    theos = God
    didoosin = gives
    autoo = to-each
    sooma = a-body
    kathoos = like/as
    eetheleesen = he-is-pleased
    kai = and/also
    hekastoo = to-every
    too = the
    spermatoon = seed
    idion = his-own
    sooma. = body.
    39 Ou = 39 Not
    pasa = all
    sarx = flesh/meat
    hee = the
    autee = same
    sarx = flesh
    alla = but
    allee = else
    men = truly
    anthroopoon, = of-men,
    allee = else
    de = but
    sarx = flesh
    kteenoon, = of-beasts,
    allee = else
    de = but
    sarx = flesh
    pteenoon, = of-birds,
    allee = else
    de = but
    ichthuoon. = of-fishes.
    40 Kai = 40 And/Also
    Soomata = bodies
    epourania, = from-above-(the)-sky
    kai = and/also
    soomata = bodies
    epigeia; = from-above-(the)-earth;
    alla = but
    hetera = different
    men = truly
    hee = the
    toon = of-those
    epouranioon = from-above-(the)-sky
    doxa, = glory/fame/brightness,
    hetera = different
    de = but
    hee = the/that
    toon = of-those
    epigeioon. = from-above-(the)-earth.
    41 Allee = 41 Else
    doxa = glory/fame/brightness
    heeliou, = of-(the)-sun,
    kai = and/also
    allee = else
    doxa = glory/fame/brightness
    seleenees, = of-(the)-moon,
    kai = and/also
    allee = else
    doxa = glory/fame/brightness
    asteroon: = of-(the)-stars:
    asteer = a-star
    gar = for
    asteros = a-star
    diaferei = differs
    en = in
    doxee. = glory/fame/brightness.
    42 Houtoos = 42 Like/As
    kai = and/also
    hee = the
    anastasis = resurrection
    toon = of-the
    nekroon. = dead-ones.
    Speiretai = They-are-planted
    en = in
    fthora, = corruption/decay,
    egeiretai = they-are-raised
    en = in
    afharsia; = incorruption;
    43 Speiretai = 43 They-are-planted
    en = in
    atimia, = indignity,
    egeiretai = they-are-raised
    en = in
    doxee; = glory/fame/brightness
    Speiretai = They-are-planted
    en = in
    astheneia, = frailty,
    egeiretai = they-are-raised
    en = in
    dunamei; = power;
    44 Speiretai = 44 They-are-planted
    sooma = a-body
    psuchikon, = breathing,
    egeiretai = they-are-raised
    sooma = a-body
    pneumatikon. = blasting/blowing.
    Ei = If
    estin = there-is
    sooma = a-body
    psuchikon, = breathing,
    estin = there-is
    kai = and/also
    pneumatikon. = blasting/blowing.
    45 Houtoos = 45 Like/As
    kai = and/also
    gegraptai = it-is-written
    “egeneto = He-made
    ho = the
    prootos = first
    anthroopos = man
    Adam = Adam
    eis = into
    psucheen = a-breather
    zoosan”; = living”;
    ho = the
    eschatos = last
    Adam = Adam
    eis = into
    pneuma = a-wind/blast/blowing
    zoo-opoioun. = life-giving.
    46 All’ = 48 But
    ou = not
    prooton = first
    to = the
    pneumatikon = blasting/blowing
    alla = but
    to = the
    psuchikon, = breathing,
    epeita = after-that
    to = the
    pneumatikon. = blasting/blowing.
    47 Ho = 47 The
    prootos = first
    anthroopos = man
    ek = out-from
    gees = earth
    choikos; = dusty/dirty/earthy/terrene;
    ho = the
    Deuteros = Second
    anthroopos = man
    ex = out-from
    ouranou. = (the)-sky.
    48 Hoios = 48 Like/As
    ho = the
    choikos = dusty/dirty/earthy/terrene
    toioutoi = truly-this
    kai = and/also
    hoi = the
    choikoi; = dusty/dirty/earthy/terrene-ones;
    kai = and/also
    hoios = like/as
    ho = the
    epouranios, = from-above-(the)-sky,
    toioutoi = truly-this
    kai = and/also
    hoi = the
    epouranioi; = ones-from-above-(the)-sky;
    49 kai = 49 and/also
    kathoos = just-as
    eforesamen = we-have-carried
    teen = the
    eikona = ikon/image
    tou = of-the
    choikou = dust/dirty/earthy/terrene-ones
    foresomen = we-shall-carry
    kai = and/also
    teen = the
    eikona = ikon/image
    tou = of-the
    epouraniou. = from-above-(the)-sky.

    Thus, the difference between psuchikon ("soul-ual") and pneumatikon ("spiritual") is NOT physical and non-physical but the POWER of the physical! It's the difference between just breathing and BLOWING or BLASTING like the wind! It's the difference between barely living on one's own and the ability to GIVE LIFE!

    Now, the word may have other applications as how something may be applied to that FUTURE "sooma pneumatikon," that FUTURE blasting body, but this is the foundational information on the difference both of these adjectives and the abstract nouns from which they are derived, the "soul" and the "spirit" - the "breathing" creature and the "blasting" creature of the future.

    Thus, since BOTH words are about a PHYSICAL body, the Kingdom of God, too, is a PHYSICAL reality! Since it doesn't yet exist in this reality physically, it must therefore come LATER! In the FUTURE!
     
  5. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    Lost in detail.

    I don't think your word test makes for a new paradigm.

    And Paul used the term: third Heaven, and John was in the presence of God - and they were contemporaries.

    I don't think Paul was trying to convey that someone was flying around in my 737 back then.
     
  6. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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  7. Rocky Wiley

    Rocky Wiley Active Member

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    Retrobyter,

    Thank you for sharing God's word.
    If Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, then it is not. God is a Spirit and those that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth John 4:24.

    Joh_3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    Joh_3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    Joh_3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
    Gal_4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
    Those that have been born again, according to the scripture, has entered into God's spiritual kingdom.
    Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    Joh_3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    Joh_3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    1Pe_1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    1Jn_4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
    1Jn_5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
     
  8. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    The Kingdom of God is God's rule and reign in and among believers. The Kingdom of God does exist in this reality and it's not physical.

    Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
    Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


    Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.


    Only those who are born again enter the Kingdom.

    Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
    Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
    Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.



    The Kingdom of God did not come suddenly. It continues to grow until the end.

    Mar 4:26 And he said, "The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground.
    Mar 4:27 He sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and grows; he knows not how.
    Mar 4:28 The earth produces by itself, first the blade, then the ear, then the full grain in the ear.
    Mar 4:29 But when the grain is ripe, at once he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come."


    1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
    1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
    1Co 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
    1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
    1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
     
  9. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Nomad.

    Have you bothered to look up every verse that uses this word? Regardless how the word is used in other phrases and compounds, you know and I know that the heart of the word is "order." However, to what Yeshua` was referring was an "order" superimposed by human beings upon others. And, it is THAT "order" to which I was referring in the short definition.

    Shalom, Rocky Wiley.

    You're simply reading too much into the verses that you've quoted. It is NOT TRUE that "Those that have been born again, according to the scripture, [have] entered into God's spiritual kingdom"!

    In John 3 (which you have marvelously quoted out of order), being able to "see" the Kingdom of God and "entering" the Kingdom of God do NOT occur AT THE MOMENT OF THE NEW BIRTH! One simply has the RIGHT and the DESTINY to "see" and "enter" the Kingdom of God IN THE FUTURE! Look at it again from that perspective:

    John 3:1-21
    1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
    2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
    3 Jesus answered and said unto him,
    Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    5 Jesus answered,
    Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
    10 Jesus answered and said unto him,
    Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
    11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
    12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    KJV

    Can you not see that having LITERAL "eternal life" or "everlasting life" is a FUTURE thing? It's not a CONDITION or a STATE of being or a STATE of mind! It's a LITERAL LONGEVITY, EVEN AFTER ONE DIES! Furthermore, the Greek word for "perish" (apoleetai) in verse 16 means "to be destroyed away!" This refers to the end result of decay within the grave! This is why we are to anticipate the RESURRECTION, not "going to Heaven!"
     
  10. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    Yes, "order" is the core definition of "kosmos," but the question we face in the exegesis of Scripture is what kind of order? You assumed a particular definition in response to Rocky Wiley and presented it as if it were the only one possible. I believe that my post regarding the nature of the Kingdom of God poses a serious problem for the definition that you've adopted.
     
  11. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom again, Nomad.

    You need to study the Kingdom of God with an open mind and a REAL thirst to learn about it, not just think that you've already arrived. The same thing I said to Rocky Wiley applies to you, as well: You are assuming too much from the verses you quoted! Again, it is NOT TRUE that "Those that have been born again, according to the scripture, [have] entered into God's spiritual kingdom"! That's a common assumption, and it is an error! Yeshua` (Jesus) DIDN'T SAY THAT! While being born again IS an instantaneous thing, entering the Kingdom of God IS NOT INSTANTANEOUS at the moment of being born again!

    Regarding Luke 17:20-21, I don't know how many times I'm going to have to repeat myself in defending the Scriptures! One absolutely MUST understand to whom Yeshua` was talking and to HOW MANY of whom He was talking!

    We who can read the Greek (and Hebrew) can see it directly, but the second-person pronouns in English have lost information since the 17th century. The second-person pronouns in the KJV have the additional information of CASE AND NUMBER! The reason for the "thee's" and "thou's" (and "thy's" and "thine's" and "ye's") are to provide this information:

    "Thou" is the second-person SINGULAR for the SUBJECTIVE case: "Thou shalt not steal."
    "Thee" is the second-person SINGULAR for the OBJECTIVE case: "I have loved thee with an everlasting love."
    "Ye" is the second-person PLURAL for the SUBJECTIVE case: "Go ye into all the world..."
    "You" is the second-person PLURAL for the OBJECTIVE case: "I have chosen you..."

    The same is true for the second-person possessive pronouns and adjectives:

    "Thy" is the second-person SINGULAR possessive ADJECTIVE: "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet..."
    "Thine" is the second-person SINGULAR possessive PRONOUN: "All that I have is thine."
    "Your" is the second-person PLURAL possessive ADJECTIVE: "I have washed your feet."
    "Yours" is the second-person PLURAL possessive PRONOUN: "The battle is not yours, but God's."

    Today, we only have "you," "your," and "yours," and we use them for singular and plural and use the "you" for both subjective and objective cases. We've LOST the information these various forms conveyed at one time in English.

    This is also true for Luke 17:

    Luke 17:20-21
    20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
    21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
    KJV


    However, we must not lose sight of Yochanan's (John's) words:

    Matthew 3:1-12
    1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
    2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
    3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
    4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
    5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
    6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
    7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
    8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
    9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
    10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
    12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
    KJV


    And, don't forget our Master's words:

    Matthew 5:19-20
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    KJV


    So, as they stood in their self-righteousness, they were NOT candidates for the Kingdom of God! So, why would Yeshua` say that the Kingdom of God was "within THEM?" THEY are to whom He was talking!

    The answer is simple: As you well know, "entos," translated as "within" and which comes from "en," meaning "in," can also mean "among" just as "en" can, such as in Luke 16:15:

    Luke 16:15
    15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among (Greek: en) men is abomination in the sight of God.
    KJV

    Since, this is the PLURAL word "you," coming from the Greek pronoun "humoon," He was talking about the Kingdom of God being AMONG the Pharisees AS A GROUP! HE is the embodiment of the Kingdom of God because HE is He who will be its KING! Therefore, while He was there among them, they had the chance to be within the Kingdom of God ... but, they rejected Him and when they lost Him, they lost their chance at the Kingdom, as well.

    Furthermore, the parables about the Kingdom often take on new meanings with the understanding that the Kingdom of God is YET TO COME!

    Matthew 6:9-10
    9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
    10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
    KJV


    These words, like the ones following, mean "LET thy kingdom come," NOT "Thy kingdom IS ALREADY come!"

    Finally, one must understand 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 rightly:

    1 Corinthians 15:20-28
    20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
    KJV


    This is a passage about RESURRECTION! Paul is saying that there will be THREE resurrections:

    1 (0th) = the Firstfruits, Yeshua` Himself,
    2 (1st) = those who are the Messiah's (the Christ's) at His coming, and
    3 (2nd) = "then cometh the end."

    It is not until He comes that He begins His reign as King over the Kingdom of God, and it is at the END of the Millennium when He delivers up the Kingdom to His Father AFTER He has subdued all of His enemies!
     
  12. Questor

    Questor Messianic Gentile

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    There is also the fact that when the Millenial Kingdom is handed over Abba, it will be in a different universe, and a remade, and much different, larger Earth, where a 1500 Mile High New Jerusalem will not be out of place, and there will be room for all the Believers to live...in our new bodies. Nothing spiritual...very physical.

    Essentially, we get to live in the New Eden physically, yet eternally, and not in some Greco-Roman concept of a spiritual heaven, living as spiritual essence.



    2 Peter 3:10-14 (CJB)
    10 However, the Day of the Lord will come “like a thief.” On that Day the heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will melt and disintegrate, and the earth and everything in it will be burned up.
    11 Since everything is going to be destroyed like this, what kind of people should you be? You should lead holy and godly lives,
    12 as you wait for the Day of God and work to hasten its coming. That Day will bring on the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt from the heat;
    13 but we, following along with his promise, wait for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness will be at home.
    14 Therefore, dear friends, as you look for these things, do everything you can to be found by him without spot or defect and at peace.

    Revelation 21:1-5 (KJV)
    1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
     
  13. Questor

    Questor Messianic Gentile

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    There is also the fact that when the Millenial Kingdom is handed over Abba, it will be in a different universe, and a remade, and much different, larger Earth, where a 1500 Mile High New Jerusalem will not be out of place, and there will be room for all the Believers to live...in our new bodies. Nothing spiritual...very physical.

    Essentially, we get to live in the New Eden physically, yet eternally, and not in some Greco-Roman concept of a spiritual heaven, living as spiritual essence.



    2 Peter 3:10-14 (CJB)
    10 However, the Day of the Lord will come “like a thief.” On that Day the heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will melt and disintegrate, and the earth and everything in it will be burned up.
    11 Since everything is going to be destroyed like this, what kind of people should you be? You should lead holy and godly lives,
    12 as you wait for the Day of God and work to hasten its coming. That Day will bring on the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt from the heat;
    13 but we, following along with his promise, wait for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness will be at home.
    14 Therefore, dear friends, as you look for these things, do everything you can to be found by him without spot or defect and at peace.

    Revelation 21:1-5 (KJV)
    1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
     
  14. Questor

    Questor Messianic Gentile

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    There is also the fact that when the Millenial Kingdom is handed over Abba, it will be in a different universe, and a remade, and much different, larger Earth, where a 1500 Mile High New Jerusalem will not be out of place, and there will be room for all the Believers to live...in our new bodies. Nothing spiritual...very physical.

    Essentially, we get to live in the New Eden physically, yet eternally, and not in some Greco-Roman concept of a spiritual heaven, living as spiritual essence.



    2 Peter 3:10-14 (CJB)
    10 However, the Day of the Lord will come “like a thief.” On that Day the heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will melt and disintegrate, and the earth and everything in it will be burned up.
    11 Since everything is going to be destroyed like this, what kind of people should you be? You should lead holy and godly lives,
    12 as you wait for the Day of God and work to hasten its coming. That Day will bring on the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt from the heat;
    13 but we, following along with his promise, wait for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness will be at home.
    14 Therefore, dear friends, as you look for these things, do everything you can to be found by him without spot or defect and at peace.

    Revelation 21:1-5 (KJV)
    1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
     
  15. Rocky Wiley

    Rocky Wiley Active Member

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    Retro,

    Until I had studied a bit about hermeneutics, I had little understanding of God’s word. That understanding came when it became clear that there is very few times that one scripture will not be explained by another. It is also very evident that God was involved in the translation of Greek and Hebrew into English. That being the fact there are few, if any, contridictions. I haven’t found any.

    Using the Greek and Hebrew dictionaries are sometimes useful when a question arises. Such as the fact that in the new testament, the word ’world’ was used when ‘age’ was the better translation. I also had to to study to find ‘heaven and earth’ and in many cases, that was speaking of the covenant, temple and people of God, with Jews.

    This is why being born again relates to spiritual birth and agrees with scripture when Jesus said:
    Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
    From the time Adam ate of the tree of knowledge, we have been born dead spiritually. But if we believe in him, we shall live.
    Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
    Once we are alive and believe, as the scripture instructs, we shall never die.
    Doesn’t that fit with the eternal life that God has promised? My body may rot away, but my spirit will go on to the Lord, and be given a glorified body.
    The only kingdom of God, in this world, is in us, and we are told that it is forever, in both the old and new testament.
    Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
    Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
     
  16. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Marcus O'Reillius.

    Sure, Paul used the terminology "third heaven"; however, what many fail to realize is that Peter did, too!

    Whoever invented it first, C.I. Scofield within his notes in the old Scofield Reference Bible (KJV), on page 1238, propagated an IDEA about what constituted a "third heaven," but Peter had already GIVEN us the answer:

    First, Scofield's notes give us:

    the first heaven is “of clouds,”
    the second heaven is “of stars,” and
    the third heaven is “God’s abode.”

    This is a SPATIAL suggestion of what is this "third heaven."

    But, Peter had already said,

    2 Peter 3:3-13
    3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
    4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
    5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God (1) the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
    6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
    7 But (2) the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
    8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for (3) new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
    KJV


    This is a CHRONOLOGICAL statement of what is the "third heaven!"

    What usually happens to a prophet of God when he is given a vision by God? Isn't he usually taken (within his vision) to a FUTURE event and shown what will happen? This is what happened to Paul (or to whom Paul was talking about). He was not whisked away to a distant PLACE; he was whisked away to a distant TIME! He was shown, like John, the "third heaven" (or "third sky") CHRONOLOGICALLY, "a new heaven and a new earth!" (Rev. 21:1)

    What's important in all this is to note that "heaven" (Greek: "ouranos") means the "SKY" and that the "sky" is most often referring to the "atmosphere" around our planet earth! Even in the night sky, we view the light from the moon, and the stars, the planets, and all the various planetoids (comets, asteroids, etc.) THROUGH the earth's atmosphere!

    As an aside note, in looking at a new version of the Bible, I will go to Matthew 16:1-4 and see what they did with the Greek word "ouranos" there. Did you know that the word "ouranos" (or a form of it) is found FOUR times there? It's found once in verse 2 and twice in verse 3, but it is also found once in verse 1!

    Matthew 16:1-4
    16 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou).
    2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos) is red.
    3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos) is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: tou ouranou); but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
    4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
    KJV


    So, why is it that EVERY English translation and paraphrase of this passage says something like this, using "heaven" in verse 1 and "sky" in verses 2 and 3? Think of yourself as a person who has NEVER used English and ONLY spoke Koinee (the commoners' Greek in the first century A.D.) It's the SAME WORD used four times! Would YOU have understood a dichotomy in meaning?

    FOUND in detail! The meaning of "ouranos" is the "sky." The P'rushiym (Pharisees) weren't looking for some proof from a PLACE called "Heaven"; they were looking for a sign from the sky! So, Yeshua` GAVE THEM ONE THEY ALREADY KNEW! "Red sky at night is a sailor's delight; red sky at morning, sailors take warning!"
     
  17. shturt678s

    shturt678s New Member

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    thank you for caring again!

    Only going to reference one 'sound byte' as an example where we must agree to disagree of course, viz. Matt.6:10, "Thy kingdom come...." This Kingdom is the heavenly reign and rule of God through the Godman Christ in the Gospel of grace. Where the Godman Christ is, there this kingdom and rule is, and, of course, also those who through Him participate in the blessings of this rule and kingdom, the kings and priests unto God.

    "Let it come" means by its own inherent power, ie, "let it come actually and completely." It's all Greek to me, however the aorist is not a reason for thinking only of the consummation, the kingdom of glory. This consummation includes all that precedes it in the rule of grace, which finally shall become the rule of glory.

    The "Kingdom" before the Godman Christ, looking toward His coming, and the "Kingdom" after the Godman Christ, looking back to His coming.

    Old Jack's opinion
     
  18. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Jack.

    Although I was actually addressing Nomad, you're quite welcome. Always willing to help a brother in need. I DO care!

    Your take on the Kingdom has some ... issues. First, the Kingdom before the "Godman Christ," or rather, the "Son of God, the Messiah, Yeshua`," was indeed looking forward to His coming - His FIRST Advent. Both the prophecies about the Messiah and the lineage of the Messiah through His ancestor David pointed to an ULTIMATE Messiah-to-be-King. However, after the "Son of God, the Messiah, Yeshua`" came and was rejected by the leadership (the elders) of the tribe of Y'hudah (Judah-Judaea-the Jews), the Kingdom was POSTPONED, awaiting His RETURN! That doesn't mean that we can't be willing subjects for that Kingdom when it arrives with our King, but right now, our Kingdom is NOT present in this world. However, it SHALL be to fulfill prophecy!

    Second, you're ignoring the fact that "Let it come" means it isn't here, yet! If Yeshua` was saying for His disciples to only pray this kind of prayer until the Kingdom returned (in the first century), then why didn't He say it was a temporary part of the prayer, no longer in effect once the Kingdom arrived? No, it is still a Kingdom that we are to anticipate arriving.
     
  19. Saint

    Saint New Member

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    Do the events spoken on in these scriptures speak of a Heavenly Kingdom or a Earthly Kingdom?

    ZECHARIAH 8:2 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'I am zealous for Zion with great zeal; with great fervor I am zealous for her.' 3 Thus says the LORD: 'I will return to Zion, and dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth, the Mountain of the LORD of hosts, the Holy Mountain.' 4 Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'Old men and old women shall again sit in the streets of Jerusalem, each one with his staff in his hand because of great age. 5 The streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in its streets.' 6 Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'If it is marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, will it also be marvelous in My eyes?' says the LORD of hosts. 7 Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'Behold, I will save My people from the land of the east and from the land of the west; 8 I will bring them back, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. They shall be My people and I will be their God, in truth and righteousness.' " (NKJV)

    ZECHARIAH 2:4 . . . "Run, speak to this young man, saying: 'Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls, because of the multitude of men and livestock in it. 5 For I,' says the LORD, 'will be a wall of fire all around her, and I will be the glory in her midst.' " 6 Up, up! Flee from the land of the north," says the LORD; "for I have spread you abroad like the four winds of heaven," says the LORD. 7 "Up, Zion! Escape, you who dwell with the daughter of Babylon." 8 For thus says the LORD of hosts: "He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. 9 For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me. 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," says the LORD. 11 "Many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. 12 And the LORD will take possession of Judah as His inheritance in the Holy Land, and will again choose Jerusalem." (NKJV)

    MICAH 4:1 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it. 2 Many nations shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion the law shall go forth, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 He shall judge between many peoples, and rebuke strong nations afar off; they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 4 But everyone shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree, and no one shall make them afraid; for the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken. 5 For all people walk each in the name of his god, but we will walk in the name of the LORD our God forever and ever. 6 "In that day," says the LORD, "I will assemble the lame, I will gather the outcast and those whom I have afflicted; 7 I will make the lame a remnant, and the outcast a strong nation; so the LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion from now on, even forever. 8 And you, O tower of the flock, the stronghold of the daughter of Zion, to you shall it come, even the former dominion shall come, the kingdom of the daughter of Jerusalem." (NKJV)

    JOEL 3:16 The LORD also will roar from Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; the heavens and earth will shake; but the LORD will be a shelter for His people, and the strength of the children of Israel. 17 "So you shall know that I am the LORD your God, dwelling in Zion My holy mountain. Then Jerusalem shall be holy, and no aliens shall ever pass through her again." 18 And it will come to pass in that day that the mountains shall drip with new wine, the hills shall flow with milk, and all the brooks of Judah shall be flooded with water; a fountain shall flow from the house of the LORD and water the Valley of Acacias. 19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom a desolate wilderness, because of violence against the people of Judah, for they have shed innocent blood in their land. 20 But Judah shall abide forever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. 21 For I will acquit them of the guilt of bloodshed, whom I had not acquitted; for the LORD dwells in Zion." (NKJV)

    ISAIAH 24:17 Fear and the pit and the snare are upon you, O inhabitant of the earth. 18 And it shall be that he who flees from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit, and he who comes up from the midst of the pit shall be caught in the snare; for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth are shaken. 19 The earth is violently broken, the earth is split open, the earth is shaken exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall totter like a hut; its transgression shall be heavy upon it, and it will fall, and not rise again. 21 It shall come to pass in that day that the LORD will punish on high the host of exalted ones, and on the earth the kings of the earth. 22 They will be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and will be shut up in the prison; after many days they will be punished. 23 Then the moon will be disgraced and the sun ashamed; for the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem and before His elders, gloriously. (NKJV)

    ISAIAH 12:1 And in that day you will say: "O LORD, I will praise You; though You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, and You comfort me. 2 Behold, God is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; 'For YAH, the LORD, is my strength and song; He also has become my salvation.' " 3 Therefore with joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation. 4 And in that day you will say: "Praise the LORD, call upon His name; declare His deeds among the peoples, make mention that His name is exalted. 5 Sing to the LORD, for He has done excellent things; this is known in all the earth. 6 Cry out and shout, O inhabitant of Zion, for great is the Holy One of Israel in your midst!" (NKJV)
     
  20. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    The holy Land 'is always before My eyes' and 'I shall never forget you'. Isaiah 49:14-23
    We who read the Bible and study prophecy, should know something of God's plans. He chose a people to be ' a light to the nations'. Ancient Israel failed in this task, so God sent them into exile. But this exile is for a decreed time, Ezekiel 4:4-6. Judah has returned, in part and sometime, likely very soon, true Israel will return to their heritage.
    On that Day, the title deed buried by Jeremiah, Jer. 32:14, will be found as proof of their ownership.
     
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